Understanding Nervous System Dysregulation: CES Therapy for Anxiety and Trauma with Tauna Young & Cara Maxfield - #45

Mike: 00:00:10

Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Michael Passmore, clinical associate

professor in the Department of Psychiatry

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at the University of British Columbia

in beautiful Vancouver, Canada.

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The Neurostimulation Podcast is all

about exploring the fascinating world

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of clinical neuroscience, clinical

neurostimulation, interventional

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mental health, and other topics in

general mental health and wellness.

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We investigate the latest research

breakthroughs, how that research

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is being translated into real

world treatments and other methods

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to improve health and wellbeing.

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So whether you are a healthcare

professional, a student, a researcher,

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or somebody who's curious about how our

brains work and what we can do to help

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them work better, this podcast is for you.

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My mission is to make the

science accessible, inspiring,

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and relevant to your life.

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This podcast is separate from my

clinical and academic roles, and

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is part of my personal effort to

bring neuroscience education to

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the general public free of charge.

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Accordingly, I would like to

emphasize that the information shared

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in the podcast is for educational

purposes only and is not intended

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as medical advice or a substitute

for professional medical guidance.

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So I would advise you to always

consult with your own healthcare

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provider to discuss your specific

health needs and treatment options.

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Today's conversation I'm really

excited about because we're bringing

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together two complimentary perspectives

on mental health treatment.

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First, we have Tauna Young, a

psychiatric nurse practitioner,

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and the founder of NeuroVana Calm,

and I'll spell out the website for

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everyone just right off the bat.

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I'd really encourage you to check it out.

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It's NeuroVanaCalm.com,

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and for listeners, that's

N-E-U-R-O-V-A-N-A-C-A-L-M.com.

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This is a company focused on expanding

access to a really interesting

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technology and treatment option called

cranial electrotherapy stimulation,

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or CES, particularly helpful for

things like anxiety and insomnia.

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Tauna has spent years in clinical

practice working with patients and

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clients struggling with nervous

system dysregulation, and she's become

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a strong advocate for integrating

physiology based tools alongside

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traditional mental health care.

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And joining her is Cara Maxfield, an

entrepreneur and content creator who

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speaks openly about things like trauma

recovery, anxiety, chronic pain, and the

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very real experiences of navigating mental

health challenges while still showing up

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for work, parenting, and life in general.

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So I'm really excited.

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I think this is gonna be a great

conversation because we're going to

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get to explore both the clinical and

neurophysiological perspectives, as well

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as the human lived experience of things

like anxiety, healing, and regulation.

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I was thinking just now, we were

talking a bit about what to cover today.

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So we'll be looking at things like what

nervous system dysregulation actually

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is, why anxiety and other kinds of

emotional challenges are often more

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body-based and physiological than

people realize how CES or cranial

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electrotherapy stimulation works and how

people might be able to start practically

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regulating their own nervous systems

to help optimize health and wellness.

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So Tauna and Cara, thanks

so much for joining us.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Tauna: Thank you so much.

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Thanks for having us, and thank you

for that great introduction and for the

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work that you're doing to benefit people

dealing with all kinds of problems.

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Thank you so much.

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Cara: Yes, thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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Mike: Yeah.

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That's great.

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Thanks.

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Thanks again for being here.

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So I was thinking maybe Cara, maybe

we can start with you and from what

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I've read and heard about in your

content, you're speaking very openly and

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honestly about challenges like anxiety,

trauma, recovery and navigating various

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challenges while still managing life

as a single mom and an entrepreneur.

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Very successful.

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So can you share a bit about maybe

when you first realized that, you were

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having nervous system challenges and

what that experience actually felt like?

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Cara: Absolutely, yes.

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I would love to, and I am, like

you mentioned, I'm a middle aged

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single mom and an entrepreneur.

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So two things that you don't get

to choose whether or not you feel

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well enough to show up for is being

a mom and being an entrepreneur.

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And so many people talk about anxiety and,

I can't really say I actually had anxiety

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until I started to reach middle age.

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And as I start this perimenopause journey

of middle age, I find that my body is

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less able to regulate my emotions and

my ability to handle anxiety and stress.

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And I do have trauma whether it's

from my childhood or recent trauma.

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And that's not something that

is anxiety, at least for me

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when I have a panic attack.

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Being on an anxiety medication is not

what I need to help me get through

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when I'm feeling that buildup of

that anxiety and panic inside of me.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Thanks so much for sharing that.

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It's inspiring, when people are able

to be vulnerable and speak openly

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in the interest of helping others

u nderstand that, of course there's

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a stigma in terms of a lot of these

kinds of things, but that these

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are such common challenges, right?

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And just having these kinds of

conversations is so important for

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people who may be struggling in silence,

to know that it's really important

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to come to an understanding, as you

say, of these things and how they're

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affecting themselves, and then what

to do, how to go about getting help.

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But the first step really is just

in terms of understanding and and

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acknowledging and recognizing, right?

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Cara: Yes, absolutely.

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And, I don't speak specifically on what my

trauma is, only because it doesn't matter.

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Because it's just, it's, it doesn't

matter if it was this or this, because

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we all have traumas and inside anxiety

and and panic attacks, i t's the same.

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It doesn't matter what the cause

is, it's the same for everybody,

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and we all have them in our lives.

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Whether or not we're healed enough to

even acknowledge them, we all have them.

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Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

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And that's a hundred percent correct.

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A very wise mentor of mine once said

in a lecture he was giving years and

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years ago that exactly as you say, we're

all traumatized to a certain extent.

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And that really landed for me in

many ways because it was just one

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of those pointed comments that was

just so factual and very impactful.

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Yeah.

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Cara: Yeah.

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Mike: Totally.

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I'm just curious, so as far as this

idea of emotions say anxiety being

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very body-based, very physiological,

I'm just curious what was some of

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your experience that way that kind

of made you think, okay, yes, this

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is something that I need to recognize

and figure out how to advocate?

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Cara: Yeah.

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When I'm starting to feel like

I'm, I am feeling anxiety.

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It starts to be like this buildup

inside my body where it's just

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an unrecognizable feeling, right?

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Because you can get really excited,

but you can recognize that excitement.

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But when I get that, that, that panic

and that extreme anxiety, it's this

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feeling that is so unrecognizable to

my body, and my body does not like it.

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And not only that, it builds and

I almost start to feel like this

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is too much for my body to handle.

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What is going to happen?

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Am I going to explode?

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Like I, I get hot and cold.

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I start sweating, yet I'm like

shaking because I'm so cold and my

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body just doesn't know what to do.

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And when my body doesn't know what to

do, my thinking doesn't know what to do.

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Mike: A hundred percent.

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Yeah.

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Thanks for describing that

connection between the body

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and the mind and the thoughts.

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Because that's very common.

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I've certainly experienced similar things.

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I think that would resonate with

many of the audience members as well.

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Tauna, from a clinician's perspective,

what would you say is actually

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happening in terms of nervous system

dysregulation during that kind of

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experience of anxiety or chronic stress?

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Tauna: Yeah, I appreciate

your description, Cara.

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That's a good way to describe

the felt experience that people

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who experienced that go through.

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And you I can't remember exactly what

you said that that kind of highlighted

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for me that, your body doesn't know

the difference between an actual

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real threat and an imagined one.

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And especially with people who have

lived through traumatic experience,

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there becomes a dysregulation there.

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That fight or flight response that

is referred to in so many different

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contexts it's an essential thing.

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Like we'd all be dead without it.

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At least our ancestors would've

not been able to run from that bear

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that, saber tooth tiger or whatever

thank goodness for that response.

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But sometimes it becomes a little

misinformed and especially in

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people who have experienced

traumatic events the nervous system.

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That is, those, the changes that happen

physiologically to respond to a threat

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maybe get a little miscalibrated,

and that response starts happening at

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times when it's no longer adaptive.

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It becomes maladaptive

in other situations.

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The nervous system, I think a good way

to describe it in a way that pretty much

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anyone can understand is the nervous

system is the bridge between your body and

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your brain or your body and your emotions.

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And sometimes there becomes a, comes

a miscalibration or a disconnect or

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a dysregulation in that, where that

alarm, that fight or flight response

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that is very adaptive in, in some

situations starts forgets to get the

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memo that, hey, everything's okay now

and gets stuck or, unable to relax in

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situations where they are in fact safe.

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Mike: Yeah, definitely.

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That's a great way of explaining it.

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It reminds me of the metaphor of the,

in a car where you have the engine

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warning light coming on, saying, okay,

there's some trouble with the engine

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and some criticism of, say, psychiatric

medications is sometimes that they're

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targeting just to switch off the

light that's giving you the alert.

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They're not actually getting at

what's going on in the engine.

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Whereas maybe other things, like

more sort of deep psychotherapy

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work might be necessary to

actually get at the root causes.

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But either way it's, as you say,

the bridge that, that you're.

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That you're having, because

emotions are these kinds of strange

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things that they're in between

thoughts and feelings in the body.

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They're and we don't get taught a lot

about how to recognize, I always say

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there should be more kind of formal

instruction in schools about being

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able to name and understand emotions

and different things like that.

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'cause we're, most of us pretty much

in the dark when it comes to that.

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Or even worse we're taught through our

families to suppress emotions and not

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to talk about it and that kind of stuff.

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Tauna: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I often refer to that as

an emotional literacy.

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A lot of people tend to be very well

learned and very well educated, but the

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emotional literacy isn't always there.

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And, in mental health in

general, there has been a stigma.

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And I think in some circles just

emotions in general, just talking

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about emotions is deemed inappropriate.

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Yeah.

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But the thing about emotions is, they also

serve a strong biological purpose too.

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Fear.

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It's an emotion that without it,

it's a very essential emotion.

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But those, especially those really

essential emotions, they can become

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very, they can get a little carried away.

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They can, get a little outta

hand in some situations.

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You mentioned the the alert in the,

in a car I sometimes call, I refer

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to that as like an inner smoke alarm.

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We all of us have an inner smoke alarm.

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But with people with anxiety, sometimes

that smoke alarm's going off just 'cause

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someone's, making some toast and it's

supposed to go off when there's fire.

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But with anxiety that just,

that smoke alarm gets a little

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miscalibrated sometimes.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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That's a great metaphor

because absolutely.

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I think emotions, you could argue

they're what gives life meaning, right?

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It's what helps us to experience

really foundational experiences

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like love and wonder and awe and

all those sorts of amazing things.

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But also recognizing that, to the

extent that we all are challenged

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to come to terms with our shadow,

things like anger and all those

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other sorts of negative emotions

have a role, have a place as well.

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So I think it's a really helpful thing as

you're describing, to perhaps see anxiety.

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Yeah.

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And negative emo negative in quotes,

emotions or shall we say uncomfortable

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emotions more as a nervous system

state or as an internal family system

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probably gets into this as well about

what are the parts of us that have their

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own roles that don't necessarily need

to be sidelined, but just integrated.

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So seeing anxiety or anger or sadness

more as a nervous system state instead

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of part of a personal weakness or

a or some sort of like deficiency.

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Right?

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Tauna: Agreed.

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Yeah.

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I sometimes teach people that,

what is the difference between

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just fear and anxiety with anxiety?

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It's fear, but it's rejected fear.

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It's fear that the person doesn't

think is appropriate to the situation.

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And so it's rejected hey,

we're not doing this.

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But fear thinks that it, you need it,

like it's trying to save your life.

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And so it's not just

gonna leave you alone.

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It's gonna keep coming at you.

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And so that's the recipe.

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If someone was trying to build anxiety

just start rejecting your fears.

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Mike: Yeah, definitely.

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So Cara, I'm curious, so thinking

about anxiety, stress these, all

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these kinds of emotions that we're

talking about more as a nervous

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system state instead of, core personal

characteristic or d eficit or weakness.

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Is that something that resonates in

terms of your own experience and did

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thinking about it in those terms maybe

change the way that you were able

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to understand your own experience?

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Cara: Absolutely.

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I love how Tauna talked about fear.

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'Cause fear in itself is

an okay emotion to have.

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But it's when it's when it's either

fear for something unreal or an

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unrealistic amount of fear or just

an anxiety about something that you

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shouldn't even have any anxiety about.

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But also sometimes it's, for me, it's

just, it's, it is based on something real.

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It's something real that happened and

it's my body just not able to deal with.

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The normal amount of fear that I should

have about it, whether it's something

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upcoming or something that happened

it's becomes too much for my brain and

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my body to be able to handle together.

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And then they just start doing this

haywire thing of not being able

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to regulate each other and and,

hopefully being able to reset myself

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before I get to where I have those,

physical and mental responses to it.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Yeah, that, that makes perfect sense.

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That's a really great

way of explaining it too.

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I'm sure that would resonate with a lot

of people who are watching and listening.

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I know it.

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Yeah.

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It definitely I can definitely

identify with that also.

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Cara: Yeah.

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Mike: Yeah, I think and it relates

to evidence-based treatments like

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cognitive behavioral therapy, right?

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Identifying the links between thoughts,

feelings, and behaviors, and how,

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often people will get into these ruts

because they're, they have a thought

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say I was just going over this with

a client the other day about who, who

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was really struggling with a lot of

social anxiety and his un unnecessary

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slash excessive slash inappropriate

thoughts were things like people.

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Don't think that I'm interesting or

people are judging me negatively.

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And so it was like challenging those

or, and then, so that would cause him

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to feel anxious and then that would

cause him to isolate at home, and

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not want to go socialize obviously.

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So then it was just getting out of

that saying, challenging those negative

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thoughts and then, just doing the

behavioral intervention of just trying

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to take small steps towards being

more sociable and then helping just to

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become more tolerant of the anxiety and

just instead of the downward spiral,

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helping him to just get back into more

of a a positive reinforcement loop.

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Cara: Yeah.

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Like I, I recently had something very

traumatic happen and, I feel like

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I'm a pretty good judge of knowing

if it's an actual traumatic thing

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and it's gonna be something that's

traumatic to everybody or just me.

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And I think it's something that

would be traumatic to just everybody.

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And at the time, I had very big emotional,

physical, mental response to that trauma.

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And a few days later, out of

nowhere, my body's response

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was as if I was there again.

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And I wasn't.

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I was safe in my home.

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There wasn't even anyone there that could

have even caused any sort of a harm.

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I was home by myself.

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It was completely silent.

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There was no like thing that happened

that I could say was an actual trigger

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other than something in my brain,

unbeknownst to me, triggered itself to me.

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And I was there again.

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And so my body and my brain had the

exact same response as if I, it, I was.

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Mike: Yeah, for sure.

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And one of the best known books that

talks a lot about this is The Body

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Keeps the Score Bessel VanDerKolk.

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And that's exactly it, right?

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The body has its own way, which

is very foreign to most of us.

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'cause to a large extent it's unconscious

in terms of our thinking mind.

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But it's, yeah, it's there, right?

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: 00:17:58

And it doesn't wanna let go.

312

: 00:17:59

And so it's super important to, help

people understand that and help, provide

313

: 00:18:03

them with options to get tools and

perhaps, work with the therapist that

314

: 00:18:07

can help them to build those bridges

like we're talking about, right?

315

: 00:18:11

So it within themselves so that they

can get healing and so that those

316

: 00:18:16

buried body effects of the stress don't

continue to cause trouble in their lives.

317

: 00:18:23

Tauna: Yeah.

318

: 00:18:23

I'd also be interested, there was

prob, there may have been some

319

: 00:18:26

kind of trigger in the environment,

a little environmental trigger.

320

: 00:18:29

We've, I'm sure that you've heard, Dr.

321

: 00:18:31

Passmore of different situations where

you know someone, smells, someone comes

322

: 00:18:35

in with the cologne of someone's abuser,

and next thing you know, they respond to

323

: 00:18:39

that person as if they were the abuser or

they smell, they walk through a grocery

324

: 00:18:44

store aisle and then they smell, bleach

or something, and then they're back

325

: 00:18:47

into a situation, of a traumatic event.

326

: 00:18:49

Bleach.

327

: 00:18:50

I'd be interested, there maybe

there was some kind of external

328

: 00:18:52

trigger in that situation too, that

maybe you weren't even aware of.

329

: 00:18:56

Cara: I'm sure.

330

: 00:18:56

Absolutely.

331

: 00:18:57

There had to have been something.

332

: 00:18:59

Mike: That's the thing because,

the common experience as well

333

: 00:19:01

is that it's, it maybe have.

334

: 00:19:04

A hundred percent there may have

been a trigger that's not even

335

: 00:19:06

aware to a conscious memory per se.

336

: 00:19:09

And so it becomes mysterious in a sense.

337

: 00:19:11

But certainly just the signal

that the, like you say, the

338

: 00:19:14

smoke alarm is going off.

339

: 00:19:16

And so it's reason to be curious.

340

: 00:19:18

And in terms of, as I say,

whether it's self-exploration

341

: 00:19:20

working with a therapist or both.

342

: 00:19:22

I'm curious though, because this, just

to switch gears a little bit, it's

343

: 00:19:25

obviously related, one of the things

that we focus in on this podcast

344

: 00:19:29

is interventional mental health.

345

: 00:19:31

Things like non-invasive neurostimulation.

346

: 00:19:33

And so this CES, I was reading up

about it and it's so interesting

347

: 00:19:37

because recognizing that it's one of

the most kind of traditional forms

348

: 00:19:42

of electrical brain stimulation, it

really is still relatively unknown in.

349

: 00:19:48

I would say, most, most medical

communities, we didn't, certainly

350

: 00:19:51

didn't learn about it in medical school.

351

: 00:19:52

So I'm just curious, Tauna, maybe if you

could help us to understand a bit more

352

: 00:19:56

about cranial electrotherapy stimulation.

353

: 00:20:01

Tauna: Yeah, I'd be happy to.

354

: 00:20:02

I'll start with just, what is this

little, it's just a little handheld

355

: 00:20:05

device, and it just has a little

tiny nine volt battery in there.

356

: 00:20:10

Just little ear clips,

357

: 00:20:14

two of them.

358

: 00:20:15

And, or if people prefer, they can

just disconnect the air clips and use

359

: 00:20:19

these little electrode pads instead.

360

: 00:20:22

Now, if I were to use them I

wouldn't even take off my earrings.

361

: 00:20:24

I would just put it on in front

or behind, doesn't really matter.

362

: 00:20:27

It just sends a little tiny microcurrent.

363

: 00:20:30

You wanna use both of 'em.

364

: 00:20:30

It sends it, through your brain

from one ear to the other, just

365

: 00:20:33

a little tiny microcurrent.

366

: 00:20:36

And it specifically on, on around the

ear sends just that little current,

367

: 00:20:40

and it, the majority of it goes to the

thalamus, which is the primary relay

368

: 00:20:46

station of sensory information, all

types of different emotion regulation,

369

: 00:20:51

the kind of the on off switch for sleep

and it's a relay station for a lot

370

: 00:20:55

of different stimuli that comes in.

371

: 00:20:57

And simply by It's interesting

though, that by stimulating something

372

: 00:21:01

that you actually stimulate a calm

373

: 00:21:04

Like calm is something that you

can actually turn on by stimulating

374

: 00:21:08

specific areas of the brain.

375

: 00:21:10

And by doing it in that placement

it's stimulating the vagus nerve

376

: 00:21:16

in a place, in a specific area

that it allows calm to occur.

377

: 00:21:21

And it's, I've seen it in right in

front of me on hundreds of patients.

378

: 00:21:27

The effects of it in the beginning

I was like, it just, it seemed I was

379

: 00:21:30

definitely skeptical, but to see how

impactful it is in so many people and the

380

: 00:21:36

way that they just, in a lot of people

they experience the benefits right away.

381

: 00:21:40

Some people, it's not till a few

times in, but a lot of people,

382

: 00:21:44

they experience it right away.

383

: 00:21:45

And you can just see just the calm,

you can see the physical shift

384

: 00:21:50

in their nervous systems just by.

385

: 00:21:52

Putting on these little ear clips and

teeny, teeny tiny electrical current.

386

: 00:21:57

Mike: Yeah.

387

: 00:21:57

It's so interesting.

388

: 00:21:58

I think there's been so much research

with this kind of low low current skin

389

: 00:22:03

application of this low current electrode

therapy over the past 10, 20 years.

390

: 00:22:08

It's amazing.

391

: 00:22:09

And as I understand, so this

particular technology is FDA

392

: 00:22:12

cleared so it's legit and it's safe.

393

: 00:22:15

And so what kinds of clinical

effects have you found for most

394

: 00:22:19

people who've had success with it?

395

: 00:22:22

Tauna: Yeah, I could talk all day on that.

396

: 00:22:25

It's FDA cleared for anxiety and insomnia,

and I've definitely seen it be very

397

: 00:22:29

impactful in those, for those conditions.

398

: 00:22:32

It's very impactful for a lot

of other conditions as well.

399

: 00:22:35

I would say that just as a whole by

my patient population now is just

400

: 00:22:40

a less anxious bunch in general.

401

: 00:22:43

Just even just for those two

applications of anxiety and

402

: 00:22:46

insomnia, it's been very impactful.

403

: 00:22:48

And, the ripple effects that has

in people's lives is quite amazing.

404

: 00:22:52

But it's also been very effective.

405

: 00:22:55

Cara has mentioned PTSD.

406

: 00:22:56

It's been really helpful for

a lot of people with PTSD.

407

: 00:23:00

Also pain because the thalamus

helps with the pain signal.

408

: 00:23:06

So it's very impactful for

people with chronic pain too.

409

: 00:23:08

And its helping with fibromyalgia.

410

: 00:23:11

So headaches, like the situations where

I've seen it be helpful have been quite

411

: 00:23:16

quite broad beyond its intended use.

412

: 00:23:19

But you've probably see that a

lot with a lot of the prescribing

413

: 00:23:22

that you do, the way that I do

where, Benadryl is an example.

414

: 00:23:25

Benadryl is it's an antihistamine,

but a lot of people use it for sleep.

415

: 00:23:30

And so that's the same thing with CES.

416

: 00:23:32

It's very helpful for anxiety

and insomnia, but also a lot

417

: 00:23:37

of other conditions as well.

418

: 00:23:38

Yeah.

419

: 00:23:39

Mike: That's really interesting.

420

: 00:23:41

Cara, what's been your experience

with technologies like CES?

421

: 00:23:45

Cara: Yes, I am so glad you asked me

that because I am one of those very

422

: 00:23:49

skeptical people when it comes to

any sort of a natural thing, right?

423

: 00:23:53

I'm just gonna think it's doesn't

work, but I am sure it does for others.

424

: 00:23:57

Go have your fun, and because I

don't necessarily have anxiety until

425

: 00:24:01

recently as I started to get older

and my body just isn't as capable

426

: 00:24:05

of dealing with those things it's

something that I probably would've said.

427

: 00:24:09

I'm not really interested in it, but I,

I was speaking with Tauna and she felt so

428

: 00:24:12

strongly about it and she had me try it.

429

: 00:24:15

It wasn't at a time where I was

necessarily feeling anxious, feeling

430

: 00:24:19

panic, feeling stress, or just anything.

431

: 00:24:22

And so I tried it and I'm

like, yeah, it's good.

432

: 00:24:24

It's good.

433

: 00:24:25

And so I brought it home with me and

fortunately, I'm so glad I did have

434

: 00:24:30

it at my home because that's, panic

attack that I mentioned that that

435

: 00:24:36

I had was actually two days after

I brought the device into my home.

436

: 00:24:40

And so it wasn't something that I

just knew that I had and I had already

437

: 00:24:44

had this proven effectiveness of it

to treat, just day to day anxieties

438

: 00:24:51

or just, day to day, oh, I feel a

little stressed, I'm gonna use it.

439

: 00:24:54

But I was sitting there on my couch and

I was just like, I'm about to explode.

440

: 00:24:58

And I'm like, do I take my shirt

off 'cause I'm sweating or do I

441

: 00:25:01

put a blanket on 'cause I'm cold?

442

: 00:25:03

And I looked across my room and

I saw it sitting right there on

443

: 00:25:06

my on my entertainment center.

444

: 00:25:09

And so I was able to function enough

to go and grab it and put it on and I

445

: 00:25:14

put it on and, I'm not gonna say it's

life changing, but I went from, my

446

: 00:25:23

body might burst from the inside out.

447

: 00:25:26

From this feeling to by the end of that

first, I used it for good 30 minutes and

448

: 00:25:37

it took a little bit of time, but it just,

I just started to feel that lowering.

449

: 00:25:42

It was almost like I was

going down step by step.

450

: 00:25:47

And then even after I felt where

I felt like, okay, I'm no longer

451

: 00:25:52

in this, what's going on I decided

I'm gonna use it for another 30

452

: 00:25:57

minutes because it felt so good.

453

: 00:25:59

And I can tell you by the end of

that 30 minutes, I was like, can

454

: 00:26:03

I just have this on all the time?

455

: 00:26:07

If it can have that much an effect

on me being like that, can it just

456

: 00:26:11

have this effect on me all the time?

457

: 00:26:14

And maybe it will change my

personality where I'm just

458

: 00:26:16

gonna be so calm all the time.

459

: 00:26:18

Everyone's gonna be so drawn to

me and want to be with me all

460

: 00:26:21

the time, and they're gonna wanna

know why I'm so calm all the time.

461

: 00:26:25

So that was like, I was so glad that I

had it then because then it did start

462

: 00:26:31

my process of implementing it into my

daily life, not just when I feel like

463

: 00:26:36

that panic coming, but into my daily

life of using it just because it just

464

: 00:26:42

that, I love how it's called NeuroVana

Calm because it really is calm and it

465

: 00:26:47

doesn't matter if you're, your starting

point is I'm about to lose my mind or

466

: 00:26:53

just I'd like to feel a bit more calm and

'cause it's helped me with all of those.

467

: 00:27:00

Mike: Amazing that's really great.

468

: 00:27:01

So in terms of the logistics, so this

is a safe device that you use at home.

469

: 00:27:06

Maybe either or both of you can just

talk a bit about those logistics.

470

: 00:27:09

What would it look like from a

client experience perspective?

471

: 00:27:12

If someone were to be interested

and they reach out, just maybe walk

472

: 00:27:16

us through how that would look.

473

: 00:27:19

Tauna: Yeah, you know these, the nice

thing about these is that they are just

474

: 00:27:22

a little, you can take this anywhere.

475

: 00:27:25

Some people have called it like a

pocket calm or peace in your pocket

476

: 00:27:29

because you can take it anywhere.

477

: 00:27:31

You and people will use it.

478

: 00:27:32

Sometimes like in, in anxiety

provoking situations and it's, they

479

: 00:27:37

can take it with them to business

beings that they're nervous about.

480

: 00:27:39

I have patients who take it to school

and put it on when they get agitated.

481

: 00:27:43

I have patients who are on the autism

spectrum that sometimes get very

482

: 00:27:47

activated at school in ways that are not

conducive to their learning and success.

483

: 00:27:51

And they can take this

to school, put it on.

484

: 00:27:54

It's so easy to use and it's so safe

because even, a child, you can give it

485

: 00:27:58

to a child and let 'em take it to school

because you can't overdose on this.

486

: 00:28:02

You, you can't hurt yourself on this,

the safety profile, it's just it's

487

: 00:28:06

a really short conversation because

there's just, there's no concerns.

488

: 00:28:10

You could use it 24-7 if you wanted to.

489

: 00:28:12

You can't overdose the way

that you can with medications.

490

: 00:28:15

When Cara was speaking I wanted to say

that that if we could have taken an

491

: 00:28:22

EEG on her brain on what the brainwave

activities was happening at that time.

492

: 00:28:27

There was a study, I think it was in 2013,

where they took a bunch of people took

493

: 00:28:32

a bunch of very experienced meditators,

and they did an EEG on the people.

494

: 00:28:39

These very experienced meditators,

while they're meditating and compared

495

: 00:28:42

when, compared them to the EEGs of

people who were actively using CES

496

: 00:28:47

and they basically look the same.

497

: 00:28:49

Like the brain state the electro

activity of brain, the state of

498

: 00:28:52

the brain, while you're using CES

essentially puts it into the same

499

: 00:28:56

state as when a person's meditating.

500

: 00:28:58

Cara, in that situation, even if she was

a very skilled meditator, it's unlikely

501

: 00:29:04

that she would've been able to just go

right into that type of brain state.

502

: 00:29:08

But this is a shortcut to that.

503

: 00:29:10

Definitely not trying to

discredit meditation in any way.

504

: 00:29:12

'cause that's a wonderful practice.

505

: 00:29:13

I highly encourage it, but it's nice

to know that there is a shortcut,

506

: 00:29:18

especially in situations like that,

that can put your brain into that and

507

: 00:29:22

then your body can then follow suit.

508

: 00:29:26

Mike: Yeah.

509

: 00:29:26

Yeah.

510

: 00:29:26

And it's also it strikes me

that it's very discreet too.

511

: 00:29:29

And so it almost even just

looks like having the, earbud

512

: 00:29:33

headphones in kind of thing.

513

: 00:29:34

Yeah.

514

: 00:29:34

So it's not this sort of thing that

someone's really gonna be standing

515

: 00:29:37

out in a crowd with wearing now.

516

: 00:29:39

For sure.

517

: 00:29:40

Tauna: Yeah.

518

: 00:29:40

They just look like they're using phones.

519

: 00:29:42

Cara: I recently went somewhere

where I think almost every person can

520

: 00:29:45

relate, where none of us like to go.

521

: 00:29:47

And I went to the dentist and.

522

: 00:29:50

I'm not like scared of the dentist.

523

: 00:29:52

I have no trauma from the dentist.

524

: 00:29:55

I don't dislike my dentist, but I

don't enjoy going to the dentist.

525

: 00:29:58

So I brought it with me and I just put

it on, and, it didn't, wasn't, I didn't

526

: 00:30:03

have to like, take medication before,

so I wasn't anxious that the dentist

527

: 00:30:07

I just put it on is very discreet.

528

: 00:30:09

They didn't even notice it.

529

: 00:30:11

But I never lost that calm

feeling that I would usually

530

: 00:30:16

lose by being at the dentist.

531

: 00:30:18

So it's very portable.

532

: 00:30:20

I just had it in my pocket, just

the little things and looked like

533

: 00:30:23

I probably had headphones on, or,

I was on a phone call or something.

534

: 00:30:26

So I love how portable and discreet it is.

535

: 00:30:30

Mike: Yeah.

536

: 00:30:30

That's amazing.

537

: 00:30:31

I'm under understanding that CES has been

around for decades, but many clinicians

538

: 00:30:35

and clients in patients population

in general haven't ever heard of it.

539

: 00:30:40

So I'm curious why you think that is.

540

: 00:30:41

I have some ideas, about the

pharmaceutical industry lobby and that

541

: 00:30:45

kind of thing, but I'm curious to know

both of your perspectives on that.

542

: 00:30:50

Tauna: Yeah.

543

: 00:30:51

I had been in clinical

practice for almost six years.

544

: 00:30:53

I'd helped thousands of people with

anxiety and insomnia and many other

545

: 00:30:58

conditions that this helps with.

546

: 00:30:59

Before I knew about it, and that was

the thing that was most puzzling to me.

547

: 00:31:03

It's like, how can something that

works this well be so unknown?

548

: 00:31:08

And I do think that, the pharmaceutical

conversation has been at the forefront,

549

: 00:31:14

probably, designed intentionally that way.

550

: 00:31:16

And I don't have anything

against pharmaceuticals.

551

: 00:31:18

I'm a prescriber.

552

: 00:31:19

I prescribe all day long.

553

: 00:31:20

I'm happy to do that, but.

554

: 00:31:23

Yeah, there is nothing that I

prescribed that I prescribed

555

: 00:31:26

that has this success rate.

556

: 00:31:28

SSRIs have a success

rate of what, 45 to 55%.

557

: 00:31:32

CES has a 67% success rate, and

that's even 67% of people have

558

: 00:31:37

at least a 50% improvement.

559

: 00:31:40

That doesn't mean that only

67% got some improvements.

560

: 00:31:44

Even a 20 or 30% improvement can

mean the difference of somebody

561

: 00:31:47

being willing to leave their house,

being willing to attempt to drive.

562

: 00:31:51

And but also, this, we could end the

discussion just at the success rate, but

563

: 00:31:56

when you factor in the safety profile, the

side effects, nobody's gaining weight from

564

: 00:32:00

CES, no one's having sexual side effects.

565

: 00:32:03

No one's having withdrawals,

no one's overdosing.

566

: 00:32:05

So they don't even belong in the same

conversation when it comes to safety.

567

: 00:32:10

So I don't, it is had

FDA clearance since: 1979

568

: 00:32:15

Mike: It's amazing.

569

: 00:32:16

Tauna: Yeah.

570

: 00:32:17

So it's really, it's it's mind boggling

that it hasn't been more at the forefront.

571

: 00:32:22

It should be in there, in the,

people with anxiety and insomnia.

572

: 00:32:25

They have an idea of

what their options are.

573

: 00:32:27

There's medications, there's counseling

there's meditation, there's prayer,

574

: 00:32:31

there's grounding exercises, nature

walks, all of those things are great.

575

: 00:32:34

They're great.

576

: 00:32:35

I encourage all of them.

577

: 00:32:36

This needs to be on that list.

578

: 00:32:38

This is just as effective, if

not more than some of those.

579

: 00:32:41

And that's NeuroVana that's why, the

NeuroVana team gets up in the morning,

580

: 00:32:44

is to just make it more well-known.

581

: 00:32:46

It needs to be on that list of

options that people understand

582

: 00:32:49

that it's available to them.

583

: 00:32:52

Mike: Yeah.

584

: 00:32:52

Yeah, for sure.

585

: 00:32:53

So again, for viewers and listeners maybe

who we skipped over the beginning and just

586

: 00:32:57

need a reminder, it's NeuroVanaCalm.com

587

: 00:32:58

a nd we'll put links in the show notes.

588

: 00:33:02

I'd really encourage

everyone to check out.

589

: 00:33:04

Yeah, and I think this point that you're

mentioning both of you about how, I

590

: 00:33:07

think one of the things I think that's

really changing in terms of healthcare

591

: 00:33:10

in general is this idea about legacy

healthcare is like the client / patient

592

: 00:33:17

comes to the expert clinician and

the expert, expert clinician kind of

593

: 00:33:23

gives some suggestions from upon high.

594

: 00:33:26

And then the client / patient

kind of goes away and is either

595

: 00:33:30

adherent / compliant or not.

596

: 00:33:32

But this is more in keeping with

personalized individual approaches

597

: 00:33:38

to treat people as individual human

beings with their own complexity and

598

: 00:33:42

their own unique story and experience.

599

: 00:33:44

So as you say, maybe it doesn't have

to be either or, but maybe it, it's

600

: 00:33:48

properly a part of the toolkit that

someone might have access to in order to

601

: 00:33:53

optimize their health and wellness, right?

602

: 00:33:55

And maybe they might wanna reach for

that tool before medication or at

603

: 00:33:58

the same time as some counseling, but

it allows people to craft their own.

604

: 00:34:02

In collaboration with their healthcare

provider to craft their own approach

605

: 00:34:07

that feels right for them and give

them that agency that's so important

606

: 00:34:10

for any kind of healing really.

607

: 00:34:14

Tauna: Exactly.

608

: 00:34:15

Yeah.

609

: 00:34:15

Many patients prefer

to not use medications.

610

: 00:34:18

They prefer to use everything else first.

611

: 00:34:21

And I, you're probably the same way where

you can, I consider myself a partner.

612

: 00:34:25

I'm not the leader.

613

: 00:34:26

They're the boss.

614

: 00:34:27

They're in the driver's seat.

615

: 00:34:28

I'm in the passenger seat.

616

: 00:34:30

Maybe I'm holding the navigation,

telling 'em how to get, but

617

: 00:34:33

they're the ones who determined the

destination, what the goals were.

618

: 00:34:36

And, this can be an excellent

companion to medications.

619

: 00:34:40

Also psychotherapy, all of the

other modalities that are used.

620

: 00:34:44

It can also be used on its own,

depending on the situation.

621

: 00:34:48

Something that I have seen in my

practice is, sometimes people are

622

: 00:34:52

talking about some really traumatic

events and just talking about

623

: 00:34:56

the trauma can be its own trauma.

624

: 00:34:59

What I've seen though, is that I can.

625

: 00:35:02

Put this on the person and they, and

then their nervous system can stay

626

: 00:35:07

calmed while they're talking about

it, and they're able to go deeper.

627

: 00:35:11

They're able to tolerate

the discussion more.

628

: 00:35:14

And that's an area that that along with

all those other uses that we were talking

629

: 00:35:18

about before, just in conjunction with

psychotherapy, you can just get so much

630

: 00:35:23

deeper and tolerate the pain of that work

so much more just by keeping the nervous

631

: 00:35:28

system regulated during that session.

632

: 00:35:31

Mike: Absolutely.

633

: 00:35:32

Yeah.

634

: 00:35:32

That's fascinating to hear.

635

: 00:35:33

And it's awesome to think about having

a device that you can use in the

636

: 00:35:36

clinic and that you can recommend for

someone to take home and for them to

637

: 00:35:40

carry on using it wherever they are.

638

: 00:35:42

It's really great.

639

: 00:35:43

Tauna, I'm curious from what

Tauna was just saying about that.

640

: 00:35:47

What we've already talked about

with the CES in combination

641

: 00:35:50

with some other strategies.

642

: 00:35:52

Have you found any of those

combinations to be particularly helpful?

643

: 00:35:55

Cara: I absolutely have.

644

: 00:35:56

So I have clinical depression and I have

been on a, on an SSRI for over 10 years.

645

: 00:36:03

People talk about, I'm feeling depressed.

646

: 00:36:05

I have, I'm depressed.

647

: 00:36:06

My, I lost my job.

648

: 00:36:07

I'm feeling depressed.

649

: 00:36:09

And so I don't nec I don't

have clinical depression.

650

: 00:36:12

My, my depression that I have isn't

because I lost my job, or I have,

651

: 00:36:16

it's just something that I've just, I

don't know the science behind it, but,

652

: 00:36:20

it's like something with my brain.

653

: 00:36:21

It's not something because,

somebody else, there's some external

654

: 00:36:25

factor causing my depression.

655

: 00:36:27

And so to me, the CES device helps me

deal with things that happen in my life.

656

: 00:36:34

Okay.

657

: 00:36:35

For instance, I mentioned that panic

attack that I was starting to feel.

658

: 00:36:39

My SSRI that I was on wasn't gonna

be able to touch that if I were to go

659

: 00:36:43

grab a couple of Valiums, the Valiums

probably would've calmed me down though.

660

: 00:36:50

I would've had to have already

had the Valiums on hand.

661

: 00:36:52

It would've taken a good 30 minutes

before it even started to work.

662

: 00:36:56

And the answer isn't always medication.

663

: 00:37:00

That it's I am, I'm not

one of those health gurus.

664

: 00:37:03

That's like the last thing I'm

gonna do is take medication.

665

: 00:37:06

If the medication is gonna

help me, I'm going to take it.

666

: 00:37:08

I don't want to suffer unnecessarily

in my mind, like I'm a chronic

667

: 00:37:12

pain, I have chronic pain.

668

: 00:37:15

And some people are like, surgery is

the last resort I'm going to go through.

669

: 00:37:19

10 years of pain.

670

: 00:37:21

10 years of physical therapy, all

of this before I have surgery.

671

: 00:37:25

Me if surgery will fix my problem, I

will have the surgery and then I'll

672

: 00:37:30

do the month of physical therapy

and then I'm gonna go on with my

673

: 00:37:32

life, so I will take the medication

so I'm not on here to be like, use

674

: 00:37:38

this device, don't take medication.

675

: 00:37:40

It can be both.

676

: 00:37:42

It can be just the device, it

can be medication and the device.

677

: 00:37:46

But for me, I have found the

device to be a companion in some

678

: 00:37:51

sorts and a replacement in others.

679

: 00:37:55

Mike: Yeah, that's, thanks

for explaining that.

680

: 00:37:56

That makes perfect sense.

681

: 00:37:57

So I'm just curious again,

so just in terms of.

682

: 00:38:00

Painting a picture of the

logistics of using the device.

683

: 00:38:03

So say someone like that client that I

was talking about that I saw recently

684

: 00:38:06

has this social anxiety disorder.

685

: 00:38:09

I recommend to do some cognitive

behavioral work, he's still just

686

: 00:38:12

trying to really come up with the

energy to try to force himself to

687

: 00:38:17

talk to someone, say, chat chat with a

barista or something along those lines.

688

: 00:38:21

What would be something where, would it

be a matter of him using the device at

689

: 00:38:25

home for 20 minutes per day in the morning

as a standard for a number of weeks?

690

: 00:38:29

Or what would be the typical

course that would be recommended?

691

: 00:38:33

Tauna: Yeah, so there's a lot

of different ways to use it.

692

: 00:38:35

You could use it in an as needed

situation if you want to, because

693

: 00:38:38

it is going to help your nervous

system just get into a state of calm.

694

: 00:38:42

So you could use it as

an as needed situation.

695

: 00:38:45

W with a lot of people that have

anxiety, they just have anxiety all

696

: 00:38:49

the time about different situations.

697

: 00:38:52

If with your patient, if he was

only anxious in just that one

698

: 00:38:55

context, I'd say use it in that

context or prior to that context.

699

: 00:38:59

But if someone was just trying to

say, just lower their baseline level

700

: 00:39:02

of anxiety in general, I think the

best way to do it is to do it, do a

701

: 00:39:07

loading phase for the first month.

702

: 00:39:09

I'd say try to use it twice a day,

every day for a month and then reassess.

703

: 00:39:14

Now that doesn't mean that, that

you could use it 24 7 if you want

704

: 00:39:17

to, but if you can try to treat

it as a task for that first month.

705

: 00:39:21

'cause what that will do is, like I

said, anxious people their default, the

706

: 00:39:26

default mode network in the brain, that

default setting it's miscalibrated.

707

: 00:39:31

And so when your brain isn't

involved in some external task

708

: 00:39:35

it's supposed to just calm,

709

: 00:39:38

daydream, remember, process, plan.

710

: 00:39:41

So by gently putting your brain

into that calm state, you can

711

: 00:39:46

then retrain your brain to just

go there naturally on its own.

712

: 00:39:50

That's why I do encourage that loading

phase in the beginning of the first

713

: 00:39:53

month if you can because after what

people experience after that first

714

: 00:39:59

month is their overall baseline

anxiety is significantly improved

715

: 00:40:04

because they have become more familiar.

716

: 00:40:07

With that calm state and they've

learned to just go there without

717

: 00:40:11

even needing something like the

CES device to put them there.

718

: 00:40:16

So that in is the best way to

use it, I think, for people

719

: 00:40:19

who struggle on the daily.

720

: 00:40:20

And then the same thing with insomnia.

721

: 00:40:23

Insomnia.

722

: 00:40:24

People, if you used it once a day,

most people, after about two or three

723

: 00:40:28

weeks will find that sleep latency

improves, and then the overall

724

: 00:40:32

sleep quality, less waking up,

easier to fall asleep will improve.

725

: 00:40:36

And then after that you reassess, maybe

you, it's beneficial to keep using

726

: 00:40:40

it, once a day you, like I said, you

can't overuse it, you can't overdose.

727

: 00:40:44

But I would say just reassess at the

end of that month and go from there.

728

: 00:40:48

Mike: Amazing.

729

: 00:40:49

That's fantastic.

730

: 00:40:50

And then I guess the other thing

that, that I was thinking about

731

: 00:40:54

is that, yeah, there was, so there

was something else just on that,

732

: 00:40:57

that I was, that slipped my mind.

733

: 00:40:59

I'll think about it in a second.

734

: 00:41:00

But I think part of it is that yeah it's

just, I think this is so valuable for

735

: 00:41:05

people because I think part of what makes

anxiety so difficult is that in order

736

: 00:41:09

to get over that, that, or through that

threshold of just figuring out how to

737

: 00:41:14

get help, there's just so much pressure

to not want to, there's so much lack of

738

: 00:41:17

confidence and so it's really encouraging

that this gives people an option to

739

: 00:41:22

think about something that can, as you

say, oh, I know what I was gonna ask.

740

: 00:41:25

So the idea about using it actively

while you're also trying some

741

: 00:41:30

other sort of modality so that.

742

: 00:41:32

It helps to reduce the anxiety

while you're attempting to do

743

: 00:41:35

that thing that you're generally

otherwise too anxious to start.

744

: 00:41:39

So that, that's so fascinating because

it could be, yeah, it could be really

745

: 00:41:43

anything like you say is causing

the anxiety in the first place, and

746

: 00:41:46

maybe even, this is something that I

actually explored with my client with

747

: 00:41:51

the social anxiety is using it with

something like virtual reality, right?

748

: 00:41:54

So you could actually, if you, if it's

more of a situational anxiety, maybe

749

: 00:41:58

putting it on and then using the virtual

reality to simulate that environment

750

: 00:42:03

that causes you to be super anxious

in that way, practicing with that kind

751

: 00:42:06

of technology might be interesting.

752

: 00:42:08

Tauna: That's a great idea.

753

: 00:42:09

Like someone doing exposure therapy.

754

: 00:42:10

Do the exposure therapy while using CESI.

755

: 00:42:13

I hadn't thought of that,

but that's a wonderful idea.

756

: 00:42:15

I would love to see that in practice.

757

: 00:42:18

Mike: Yeah.

758

: 00:42:19

Yeah.

759

: 00:42:19

Interesting.

760

: 00:42:20

So maybe and I'd be interested in both

each of your perspectives on this.

761

: 00:42:23

If there are people watching or

listening right now I'm sure many

762

: 00:42:26

of them are struggling with things

like chronic anxiety, insomnia,

763

: 00:42:30

nervous system overwhelm in general.

764

: 00:42:32

What's one or two things that

you want to let them go, take

765

: 00:42:36

away from the conversation?

766

: 00:42:37

Help them to understand about

what they're experiencing and

767

: 00:42:41

how to overcome those challenges.

768

: 00:42:42

How their brain and body are

responding and how to just help to

769

: 00:42:46

make it so that they're feeling more

comfortable and able to move forward.

770

: 00:42:51

Tauna: You wanna go first, Cara?

771

: 00:42:53

Cara: Yes.

772

: 00:42:53

Sure.

773

: 00:42:54

Yeah.

774

: 00:42:54

So I, I have, I've overcome a lot of

the, just the stigma around being able

775

: 00:43:00

to acknowledge that you're not okay.

776

: 00:43:04

Everyone has something.

777

: 00:43:06

And so being able to acknowledge

that, Hey, I have PTSD from trauma,

778

: 00:43:11

I sometimes don't feel normal.

779

: 00:43:13

I don't always feel like I can

wake you my regulate my emotions,

780

: 00:43:19

I feel stress, I have depression.

781

: 00:43:21

You know what?

782

: 00:43:22

Whatever it is, I guarantee you, you are

not the only one that feels that way.

783

: 00:43:28

So if you are feeling stuck in it because

you are feeling stuck, that you have

784

: 00:43:34

to stay there because you either think

there's nobody else that's going to

785

: 00:43:38

have it, or you have an embarrassment or

ashamed or that there's something that's

786

: 00:43:43

not, that's going to be able to help you.

787

: 00:43:46

I want you to know that you're not alone

and there's thousands of people that have

788

: 00:43:51

it, and there is help and there is a path.

789

: 00:43:59

And a path to seeing the sunlight and

that brightness again in your life.

790

: 00:44:07

Tauna: Thank you.

791

: 00:44:08

Yeah, that, thank you, Cara.

792

: 00:44:10

Your question was essentially like

what people, what we tell people

793

: 00:44:14

that experience anxiety essentially.

794

: 00:44:16

Yeah.

795

: 00:44:16

There's a lot that I could go on there.

796

: 00:44:18

I think that the thing that, something

that I would encourage people who

797

: 00:44:22

have anxiety to understand is that

it is a very physical experience.

798

: 00:44:27

I think a turning point for me

was when I was actually a graduate

799

: 00:44:30

student and I was working in primary

care and I was assessing a woman

800

: 00:44:35

who came in thinking that she had

some kind of a cardiac condition.

801

: 00:44:38

So I was talking to her about her

symptoms and the experiences, and I,

802

: 00:44:42

one of the questions I asked her was,

do you have a history of anxiety?

803

: 00:44:45

And she was like, oh no.

804

: 00:44:46

This is not mental.

805

: 00:44:47

This is physical.

806

: 00:44:49

And I said, oh I know anxiety

is a very physical experience.

807

: 00:44:55

It is a physical condition

that people have.

808

: 00:44:58

And I think that,

809

: 00:45:01

to try to compartmentalize the

physical and the emotion, it's

810

: 00:45:04

just, it's not gonna work.

811

: 00:45:06

And the nervous system is that

connector and, emotions, they're

812

: 00:45:10

never, they're not right or wrong.

813

: 00:45:11

They're not good or bad.

814

: 00:45:12

They're not something that we,

that necessarily need to be judged.

815

: 00:45:16

But understanding the role

that they play in the physical

816

: 00:45:20

experience can be very useful.

817

: 00:45:23

And that, that fear response

it is very essential.

818

: 00:45:27

And it's not something that we

can help, but it is something

819

: 00:45:29

that could use some educating.

820

: 00:45:33

Training our bodies and minds how

to work through those situations.

821

: 00:45:38

CES can be a great way to either train

the body how to respond and then that

822

: 00:45:47

shapes the emotional experience and

which is a great thing to pair with, the

823

: 00:45:53

CBT, the stuff that you were mentioning.

824

: 00:45:55

It's just a great.

825

: 00:45:57

You mentioned like an

added tool to the toolkit.

826

: 00:46:00

I think that's a really

great way to frame it.

827

: 00:46:03

I don't, none of these is

competitive against each other.

828

: 00:46:06

They all serve a useful purpose for

people in a lot of different scenarios.

829

: 00:46:12

Mike: Yeah.

830

: 00:46:12

Fantastic.

831

: 00:46:13

Thanks so much to both of you.

832

: 00:46:14

This really has been such an

interesting, inspiring educational,

833

: 00:46:18

thoughtful conversation.

834

: 00:46:19

I think one of the biggest takeaways

that maybe I can add to what both of you

835

: 00:46:23

just explained there so well, is that

for people who are watching and listening

836

: 00:46:27

to really remember that anxiety or

even, any emotional struggle, insomnia.

837

: 00:46:32

It's not the stigma would tempt you

to think that maybe it's a failure of

838

: 00:46:36

character or willpower or mindset, but

it's not that it's as you're saying, it's

839

: 00:46:41

body-based, it's physiologically based.

840

: 00:46:43

It's often a reflection of a

nervous system that has been

841

: 00:46:46

pushed into chronic activation.

842

: 00:46:48

And the good news is that

we have this toolkit.

843

: 00:46:50

We have more tools than ever

from counseling therapy.

844

: 00:46:55

CES, optimizing lifestyle approaches.

845

: 00:46:58

And so yeah, it's just important

to be aware of and to know

846

: 00:47:01

what options are available.

847

: 00:47:02

And I would really recommend that if

people are interested to definitely

848

: 00:47:06

reach out get in touch with Tauna

and her team at NeuroVana Calm.

849

: 00:47:11

So again, nerdvana calm.com

850

: 00:47:13

and again, I'll spell it out for

listeners who may be missed the first

851

: 00:47:16

little bit when we went over this.

852

: 00:47:18

It's NeuroVana Calm, so

N-E-R-U-O-V-A-N-A-C-A-L-M.com.

853

: 00:47:27

And yeah, aside from that, wanting to

really thank you both today, it was

854

: 00:47:32

just such an interesting conversation.

855

: 00:47:34

Yeah, just really great to meet both of

you and to hear both of your stories.

856

: 00:47:38

Tauna: Thank you so much.

857

: 00:47:38

I would like to add that if

you do go to NeuroVanaCalm.com,

858

: 00:47:42

that I do have an ebook on there that

people can download for free that

859

: 00:47:45

does a deeper dive into the science.

860

: 00:47:48

I think it'd be useful, it'd be beneficial

and interesting to a lot of clinicians,

861

: 00:47:52

but also to just the layperson who likes

to get into the science and do that deeper

862

: 00:47:56

dive and geek out with me like I do.

863

: 00:47:59

I welcome people to do that as well.

864

: 00:48:02

Mike: Fantastic.

865

: 00:48:03

Okay.

866

: 00:48:03

That's so great.

867

: 00:48:04

Again, Tauna Young, thank you so much.

868

: 00:48:06

Psychiatric nurse practitioner and

founder of NeuroVanaCalm, working

869

: 00:48:09

with her team to expand access to

cranial electrotherapy stimulation.

870

: 00:48:14

And thank you also Cara Maxfield,

entrepreneur advocate for these open

871

: 00:48:19

conversations about lived experience.

872

: 00:48:22

Really value both of your knowledge,

your wisdom, and thanks so much

873

: 00:48:26

again for joining me today.

874

: 00:48:28

Yeah, it was just such

a great conversation.

875

: 00:48:30

Thank you so much.

876

: 00:48:32

Tauna: Thank you.

877

: 00:48:32

And thank you, Cara, for sharing

those things that are very

878

: 00:48:35

making it, sharing those very

vulnerable personal experiences.

879

: 00:48:38

I think that your input was really useful.

880

: 00:48:40

Thank you.

881

: 00:48:41

And thank you.

882

: 00:48:42

Yes, absolutely.

883

: 00:48:42

Cara: Yes.

884

: 00:48:42

Thank you for having me.

885

: 00:48:45

Mike: Super.

886

: 00:48:45

And so just to wrap up for viewers

and listeners, if you've enjoyed this

887

: 00:48:48

episode, please consider sharing it with

a friend, family member, or a colleague,

888

: 00:48:52

anyone you think that might benefit.

889

: 00:48:54

As we said at the outset, everyone

has trauma to a certain extent, right?

890

: 00:48:58

And so it's important to recognize

that and to just to not be feeling

891

: 00:49:03

inhibited by the stigma of worrying

about what people will think

892

: 00:49:06

because it's a universal experience.

893

: 00:49:09

Also, if you have questions or

comments, feel free to put those

894

: 00:49:11

in the comment section below.

895

: 00:49:13

Please leave a review as well.

896

: 00:49:15

Anything that you want to hear about

in future episodes, let us know.

897

: 00:49:18

These conversations are really important

because they help us to move toward a

898

: 00:49:22

future where healthcare, mental health

care in particular can be destigmatized

899

: 00:49:26

and become more integrated where there's

a better understanding of how ultimately

900

: 00:49:31

this is a body-based kind of health

and wellness issue, physiological and

901

: 00:49:37

is deserving of compassionate care.

902

: 00:49:39

Thank you so much for joining us

today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

903

: 00:49:43

I hope that you enjoyed this

conversation as much as I did.

904

: 00:49:46

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

905

: 00:49:49

and subscribe to the podcast.

906

: 00:49:51

It's the best way to make sure that you

never miss an episode, and also helps us

907

: 00:49:55

to reach more curious minds like yours.

908

: 00:49:58

For more details about our guest's

content, I would really encourage you

909

: 00:50:02

to check out the links in the show

notes, and also join in the discussion.

910

: 00:50:06

I'd love to hear your ideas with

comments, questions, thoughts that

911

: 00:50:10

you might have about topics that

you'd like to hear more about.

912

: 00:50:13

We can try and incorporate

those into future episodes.

913

: 00:50:16

Your questions, ideas, and feedback

really do make this podcast better.

914

: 00:50:21

Finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

915

: 00:50:23

It's going to be another exciting

journey into the world of neuroscience,

916

: 00:50:27

clinical, non-invasive neurostimulation,

interventional mental health, and

917

: 00:50:31

general mental health and wellness.

918

: 00:50:33

So thanks again for listening.

919

: 00:50:35

Take care.

920

: 00:50:36

Stay curious, and I'll see you next

time on the Neurostimulation Podcast.