The Cave You Fear to Enter: Memory Reconsolidation and Emotional Healing with Dr. Brian Desroches - #38 - Jan 10, 2026

Mike: 00:00:05

Welcome to The Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Michael Passmore, clinical

associate professor in the department

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of Psychiatry at the University of

British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.

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The Neurostimulation Podcast is all

about exploring the fascinating world

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of clinical neuroscience, non-invasive

neurostimulation, interventional

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mental health techniques like ketamine

assisted psychotherapy, a whole

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host of things that can be done to

help improve lives and connections.

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We explore the latest research

breakthroughs and how that

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research is being translated into

real world treatments that can

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improve health and wellbeing.

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This podcast is separate from my

clinical and academic roles, and

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is part of my personal effort to

bring this kind of neuroscience

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education to the general public.

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Accordingly, I would like to emphasize

that the information shared in

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this podcast is for educational

purposes only and is not intended

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as medical advice or a substitute

for professional medical guidance.

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Today I had a really

interesting discussion with Dr.

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Brian DeRoche.

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Brian is a psychotherapist, a teacher,

an author, an entrepreneur, a coach.

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Just a really fascinating individual and

he presents a really compelling story.

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Which, is a really heartfelt and,

interesting and engaging discussion that

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I hope that you'll stay tuned for and I'm

sure you're gonna get a lot out of it.

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I certainly know that I did.

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it was a really interesting

conversation and I'm really looking

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forward to sharing that with you all.

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Welcome back to the Neurostimulation

Podcast where we explore how cutting

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edge neuroscience translates into

real human change, not just symptom

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management, but real transformation.

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I'm really excited about today's

conversation because it sits right

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at the intersection of neuroscience,

psychotherapy, and lived experience.

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My guest today is Dr.

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Brian DeRoche, a psychotherapist

with over three decades of clinical

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experience, an author and a consultant

to healthcare professionals.

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Brian has spent much of his career

doing what many of us try to do,

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helping people understand why they

keep getting stuck in patterns that

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they desperately want to change.

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But in 2015, after more than 20

years of practice, Brian had a

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moment that fundamentally changed his

understanding of emotional healing.

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He realized that much of what

we've been taught about things

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like coping, managing triggers, and

even insight itself was incomplete.

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And that realization led him into

the neuroscience of emotional

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learning and memory, reconsolidation,

and ultimately to his new book

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called Living a Trigger Free Life.

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So I'm really excited because I think in

this conversation we're gonna be exploring

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why willpower collapses under pressure,

why insight often doesn't lead to change,

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how the brain predicts future pain based

on past emotional learning, and most

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importantly, how those learnings can

actually be updated at the synaptic level.

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Brian doesn't frame self-sabotage as

a flaw, but as a protection, and he

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offers a neuroscience based pathway

for lasting change that many listeners,

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especially clinicians, may find

both unsettling and deeply hopeful.

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Brian, welcome to the podcast.

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I'm so excited that you're here

and I'm really looking forward

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to our conversation today.

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Brian: Thank you, Michael.

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Thank you for this, this opportunity

to spread this word and, and to

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discuss what I think is a paradigm

shift for my profession and

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for the self-help industry too.

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Uh, uh, a real switch

from the overcome battle.

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Get over it.

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Uh, counteract your symptoms to

one where in the Buddhist sense you

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engage with them and find out what's

really driving them underneath.

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And now the neuro new neuroscience

tells us how we can change the

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cause of those symptoms and problems

that last year brought about 34

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million people to psychotherapy.

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Fantastic.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that it really speaks

to the importance of bringing.

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At least, having space to allow for

some type of a spiritual component

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to any kind of therapeutic work.

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You know, you mentioned Buddhism, but

despite, you know, regardless of what

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anyone's worldview is, I think that

it's a, a really important, aspect

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of care and it's something that in

secular society is often sidelined.

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And so I'm really looking forward

to exploring how important

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that is from your perspective.

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Brian: Yes, thank you.

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That, and, and I'll get to

that, yes, and it has to do in

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fact with emotional learning.

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Hmm.

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Brian: and, but that's a very, that's

a different topic, but related, so

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for sure.

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Yeah.

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The emotional piece and the spiritual

piece definitely go hand in hand.

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I was curious, so maybe, if you

don't mind, perhaps you could

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just, introduce yourself a little

bit about your background, just

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so viewers and listeners, get know

you a bit and that would be great.

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Yeah.

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Brian: Good.

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Good.

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Well, It started my career, got a master's

degree in hospital administration, and

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by my late twenties, I just saw, boy,

I, I just wanted to make a lot of money.

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And those people in those that

have those big offices and

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those hospitals were doing okay.

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So I thought, Hey, I'm gonna do this.

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And so I went ahead and did that.

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And by the time I was in my early

thirties, I was vice president

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of a multi-hospital corporation.

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I, I got a master's degree in

counseling because we were managing

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healthcare facilities and recovery

facilities, addiction recovery.

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And I did not understand what

those people were talking about.

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I just defied my understanding.

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So I figured, well, if you can't

change 'em, why not join them?

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So I got a master's degree in counseling,

but after a bit I got kind of tired.

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I just, my administration

work did not feed my soul.

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And, so I decided to make a trial

left that completely did, got

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involved building some psychiatric

hospitals head up, uh, alcoholism

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treatment center for about a year.

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It still didn't do it.

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And in my late thirties,

my mid thirties, yeah.

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I kind of said that's it.

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I opened up a private practice, cast my

fate to the wind, if you will, and, was

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the best choice I've ever made in my life.

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It was my, I know it was my

destiny, I just know it and,

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and, and it continues to be.

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And, so been in practice 30 plus years.

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Do work with, I have a coaching

practice that works with dentists.

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Literally all over the world, workshops,

presentations, and how to deal with

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difficult patients and how to lead a very

complex organization, a dental practice.

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And that's been a very rewarding for

me because dentists are, uh, like you,

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scientists, and, um, I have to really

know my science, my neuro, I really

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have to know it in order to be able to

do what I did, I, the coaching practice

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and also do psychotherapy, uh, using

the model that I described in the book.

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I just didn't go back to anything else.

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I see too many positive results.

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So, father of four, two kids,

two adopted children and, and

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live in Seattle and I love it.

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I love it.

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Yeah.

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That's great.

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That's great.

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Thanks so much.

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That's such a, a fascinating story.

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It's so heartwarming.

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You know, I love the description of

just how you felt, at home, just so

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connected when you found your vocation

and that you just really Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Flourished.

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Flourished in that ever since.

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Brian: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And that's why I got my, I got, because

of the work I was doing, I went and got a

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PhD in pastoral counseling and psychology.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: I really wanted to

understand more deeply what people

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were asking fundamentally about

meaning and purpose and suffering.

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And, and that helped me to really

get a, just deepen my awareness

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of the deeper journey that every

one of us, I believe is on.

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Yeah.

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Fascinating.

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Yeah, I, I can't, I can't agree more.

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I think that it, it just sounds amazing

and, in particular, yeah, I just think

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that, it, it's really interesting to

hear about your, your coaching, your

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that, because the coaching, it lends

itself so well to the psychotherapeutic

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practice because that's essentially

what a psychotherapist is, isn't it?

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It's a, a type of a coach.

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Brian: Yeah, very much so.

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Very, very much so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The only difference is when you coach,

you don't have to put a diagnosis.

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When you do psychotherapy, you

need a diagnosis and a, it's all,

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that's the primary, but the process

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mm-hmm.

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Brian: Of helping people to understand

and move towards their desires, desired

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outcomes, is very similar in many ways.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's interesting though, 'cause

the diagnostic piece, it's kind

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of a double-edged sword, isn't it?

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Because you, on the one hand, it can be

helpful, but on the other hand it can.

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Hinder and get in the way.

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Yeah.

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Brian: Yeah.

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It, it, it, you have this and so there's

this, I've gotta fix this, which is

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typically the problem or the symptom, and

does not get underneath that problem or

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symptom that what's really driving it.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: What is, what is the, what I've

learned is the emotional learning,

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the, that's driving that symptom that

the brain and its learning, predicting

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and adapting process recognizes, and

then, boy, we focus on these problems.

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But beneath I, I think, I do think,

I think Troy would be quite happy

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Sure.

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Brian: With what

neuroscience has found out.

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I'm not quietly talking about the

sexual oppression part, but the

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fact of the, and Jung particularly,

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yeah.

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Brian: The role of the unconscious,

how we can bring it to consciousness.

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Yeah.

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Brian: And, and actually change.

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At the synaptic level, the brains

still is, a fact and a reality that,

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as I say, I continue to integrate

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mm-hmm.

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Into

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Brian: practice in my life.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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It makes me think of, a really apt

metaphor that I, I read recently

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and Stan and Christina Gross's

book on holotropic healing.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yes.

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And the metaphor was that, when you

have, when you have a, a red light

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on in the dashboard of your car,

signaling that there's some engine

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trouble, you, you don't just reach

under into the dashboard and pull out

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the wires that go to that red light.

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Right.

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Right.

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which is, in a way that's kind of

what modern psychiatry does with these

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medications is it seeks to just dampen

down the alert signal rather than

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going into the engine and fixing what's

causing the problem in the first place.

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Brian: Well, well said.

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I, I also have a car analogy too.

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it's like when you get in your car,

you start the ignition and you've got

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a destination in mind and you want

to go to this, whatever it is, party

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or the grocery store or something,

you put your foot on the gas.

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Now imagine when you put your foot

on the gas, you simultaneously

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put your other foot on the brake.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Brian: This is the dilemma.

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And what you're saying is, okay, so

we're gonna focus on, what do you

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do when the foot's on the brake?

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Let's relieve the, the, the, maybe

you need a different destination.

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Maybe you need to get outta the car.

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Maybe you need to back off a little bit.

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But we don't look at what causes

the other foot to put the foot

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on, on the brake, and that's very

stressful, as you know very well.

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On the nervous system mm-hmm.

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On the infl.

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it's very stressful to have one foot

on the, this, you burn out your engine.

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Yeah.

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Burn out your engine.

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Yeah.

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Always.

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All these little subtle, subtle ways

that we get in our own way, we get,

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we are our own kinds of obstacles.

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These subtle methods that

we get in our own way.

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Brian: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I was curious.

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Yeah.

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Go ahead.

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Mm, please.

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Brian: I and IP we do, I know I certainly,

I've learned a lot that I get in my own

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way, but now I find out that many times,

getting in my own way is my brain's way

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of protecting me from something that

will be painful, will involve suffering.

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That I only feel, but there's no

co, there's no, I don't have images.

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It's not like an explicit

traumatic memory.

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and we all, I certainly have those.

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And EMDR has been very effective

at metabolizing, those.

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Those explicit memories, but it was,

when it comes to the implicit mm-hmm.

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Emotional learnings acquired

in the first seven years.

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Yeah.

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We only know those as sensations.

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The very seldom is there

anything explicit, semantic or

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episodic associated with that.

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And those are what drive my

observation, my experience person.

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Those what drive our emotional reactions,

our triggered reactions, our pattern

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maladaptive, whether it be pushing away as

in conflict, pulling away as an avoidance

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or just tummy avoidance, fight fawn.

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You know, it, it's,

that's what the cause is.

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and that's a big shift that I, I say I'm

still integrating that 'cause I wanna fix.

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Mm-hmm.

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And, no, no, no, no.

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Listen and go deeper.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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It makes me think that maybe, what I

was really interested in just reading

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a bit about your background was this

a of the awakening in, was it: 2015

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Yes.

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That there was like a

paradigm shifting moment.

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Maybe you can explain Yes.

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It was what that was about.

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Brian: Sure.

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so in the, in the mid, 1990s, I

published two books, one on re

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Reclaiming Yourself and the other,

codependent Recovery Process.

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And the other was called

Your Boss Is Not Your Mother.

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How We Repeat Patterns in the Workplace

based on our family experience.

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And they were published by big publishing

houses in New York, but the, the, the

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one book, your Boss Is Not Your Mother.

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When I submitted the manuscript, the

publisher said, love the content, but

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this is, it needs to be formatted.

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It's just we're gonna hire

a professional writer.

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To do that.

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And their logic, their rationale

made total sense to me.

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They did it very respectfully.

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They wanted the best for the book.

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My experience of the rewrite was shame,

and they never intended this inadequacy.

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What's wrong with me?

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I'm not enough.

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I really got, looking back

now, I really saw that,

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got the book reread and it was

translated into six languages and, and

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I'm very, feel really good about it.

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So in the, about five years later,

the early two thousands, mid two,

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2004, I had an idea for two more

books and I thought, oh, I've got two.

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I can do this.

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Michael, I couldn't write.

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even now when I talk about it, I

can, I can feel that experience,

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not the anxiety, but the awareness.

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I couldn't write.

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I would, I would, I'd get

frozen and it made no sense.

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So I've got a writing coach.

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I bought a really nice fine

blue cobalt pan to write with.

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I got a new computer.

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I went on writing retreats.

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I did e mdr, RI, nothing, nothing would

move me beyond this what became a very

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toxic procrastination for 10 years.

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I, and I didn't, I couldn't understand it.

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And so in 2015, I read about this

workshop on memory reconsolidation.

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And this sounds really interesting.

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I went to the workshop, it

was at Fordham in New York.

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And, As so happens, I was the Guinea pig

for the demonstration, and guess what?

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The focus was my writing, procrastination.

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I went through the process.

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There's five steps that

I talk about in the book.

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I didn't know that I'd shifted when

I got back Monday morning to Seattle

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and I, I went, I said I'm gonna start

writing what was at an eight level in

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terms of anxiety, was now at a one.

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And I was like, it was,

it was disorienting to me.

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It was like, what is going on?

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This, I'm supposed to be anxious.

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It was.

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It at 10 years of that, it just,

I, I couldn't understand it.

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And then when I really started looking

at what the research was and how my

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brain had changed over that weekend,

because what the brain was predicting

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was going to happen if I write, which

is shame, inadequacy, really toxic

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: 00:17:44

emotions had been counteracted, if you

will, not by trying to get over it by

327

: 00:17:51

a mismatch, a prediction correction.

328

: 00:17:55

Mm-hmm.

329

: 00:17:57

Brian: And that just blew me away.

330

: 00:17:59

And that's when I began my in-depth

research, the of, of, what is this?

331

: 00:18:04

How does this work?

332

: 00:18:05

What's the new?

333

: 00:18:06

And the neuroscience is very clear on it.

334

: 00:18:10

And so I started using this process,

this, this non counteractive.

335

: 00:18:17

Let's engage with the symptom.

336

: 00:18:18

Let's go underneath the symptom.

337

: 00:18:22

If you imagine doing this

change, what's it like?

338

: 00:18:24

And for most people may imagine doing

a change or completing something.

339

: 00:18:29

And I've got so many stories in the book

that become anxious because the brain

340

: 00:18:35

had learned in my brain, had learned if

I write and publish another book, I will

341

: 00:18:42

be shamed and humiliated and will suffer.

342

: 00:18:45

And it had all its origins

in my family of origin.

343

: 00:18:49

I'm the adult child of, an alcoholic

PTSD dad from World War ii.

344

: 00:18:54

And, I thought I, I've done 17 years

of therapy on all kinds of stuff.

345

: 00:18:59

Nothing really changed, but at

least I was doing something.

346

: 00:19:02

Mm-hmm.

347

: 00:19:03

Insight never worked.

348

: 00:19:04

I knew what, what my problem was, I

just couldn't do anything about it.

349

: 00:19:08

But the writing really, really

brought it home when I learned

350

: 00:19:13

that writing and shame.

351

: 00:19:17

Those negative kind of emotions

have become associated my brain.

352

: 00:19:21

Unbeknownst to me, it was not like

I said, oh good, I get to learn

353

: 00:19:26

that I'm incompetent and adequate.

354

: 00:19:28

No, my brain, my emotional

brain linked those two.

355

: 00:19:33

and so every time I went to

write, my brain would assess

356

: 00:19:38

the threat of the writing.

357

: 00:19:40

'cause the brain's always

doing a threat assessment.

358

: 00:19:43

Mike: Mm-hmm.

359

: 00:19:44

Brian: And then it, survival

bias would predict pain, activate

360

: 00:19:47

the anxiety, and I withdraw.

361

: 00:19:49

Mike: Hmm.

362

: 00:19:50

Brian: And when I really start to see that

and work with clients and in my own life,

363

: 00:19:56

I began to experience the kind of

changes that I had dreamt about

364

: 00:20:00

having but never experienced.

365

: 00:20:04

and really experienced in my body.

366

: 00:20:06

The shift was in my body.

367

: 00:20:07

It wasn't just in my head.

368

: 00:20:08

Mm-hmm.

369

: 00:20:08

It

370

: 00:20:10

Brian: was, I could feel the difference.

371

: 00:20:12

And when you can feel the difference

given a stimuli and you have

372

: 00:20:16

a different experience of that

stimuli, your brain has changed.

373

: 00:20:21

It has transformed.

374

: 00:20:23

And that is an enduring transformation.

375

: 00:20:26

Mm-hmm.

376

: 00:20:27

Brian: Yeah.

377

: 00:20:28

And that's what happened in 2015.

378

: 00:20:29

It just like, whew.

379

: 00:20:31

Yeah.

380

: 00:20:32

Brian: It, it, it, wow.

381

: 00:20:35

The, the idea about prediction

correction, I think that's such a

382

: 00:20:39

fundamental, very important idea.

383

: 00:20:42

Brian: Mm-hmm.

384

: 00:20:42

You, you, you've explained

that already a little bit.

385

: 00:20:45

Do you mind just expanding on that

a little, and then not at all about

386

: 00:20:47

how to approach, undo that problem?

387

: 00:20:50

Brian: Yeah.

388

: 00:20:50

And in, in, in neuroscience terms,

they call it a prediction error.

389

: 00:20:56

so the brain is, make the brain's

prediction is an error I call a

390

: 00:21:01

prediction correction, because when

I've been doing workshops on this.

391

: 00:21:06

I got feedback saying, no, this,

you are correcting the prediction.

392

: 00:21:10

I realize, there's something

to be said for that wisdom.

393

: 00:21:12

So I call it a prediction correction,

but if you look it up, it's prediction

394

: 00:21:15

error in neuroscience terms.

395

: 00:21:18

So the brain is a, a learning,

predicting and adapting process.

396

: 00:21:24

it does a lot of things, but

at heart it acquires knowledge.

397

: 00:21:29

Knowledge about skills, knowledge about

processes and, and, and information.

398

: 00:21:36

But there's a third level of

knowledge that the brain acquires

399

: 00:21:39

that most of us aren't aware of.

400

: 00:21:41

'cause we don't actively,

consciously participate in it.

401

: 00:21:44

And that's the level

of emotional learning.

402

: 00:21:47

Mm-hmm.

403

: 00:21:47

So the emotional brain learns,

acquires knowledge, what causes

404

: 00:21:52

pain, and what causes pleasure.

405

: 00:21:55

And in the first seven years particularly.

406

: 00:21:58

That process, as you

know, is very powerful.

407

: 00:22:00

As Yung talked about, the stamping

process that happens, cultural

408

: 00:22:05

process that happens fitting in.

409

: 00:22:07

All of that, that knowledge that

is acquired, called an implicit

410

: 00:22:13

emotional learning process,

resides in the unconscious, the

411

: 00:22:18

lower regimens, the levels of the

right hemisphere, if you will.

412

: 00:22:23

And so the brain uses, it's a

predictive process as it uses

413

: 00:22:29

its past experiences to predict.

414

: 00:22:32

It's always doing that.

415

: 00:22:34

We do it consciously.

416

: 00:22:35

Planning for, this was a prediction.

417

: 00:22:38

We do this consciously.

418

: 00:22:40

The brain also does it unconsciously.

419

: 00:22:42

So if I learned as I did with

writing, writing and shame and get

420

: 00:22:49

connected, I didn't know, I, I didn't

know that my brain learned that.

421

: 00:22:54

So every time I would go to write,

my brain would take the writing

422

: 00:22:58

cue and it would activate to make

sense of this activate the learning.

423

: 00:23:03

The learning would then predict

'cause of its survival bias.

424

: 00:23:09

It would predict it pain, and

naturally it does what it's

425

: 00:23:15

created to do evolution wise.

426

: 00:23:17

It would then create anxiety.

427

: 00:23:19

The signal that says, no, no, no.

428

: 00:23:24

And with that, the accompanied behavioral

even like, it was interesting that Dr.

429

: 00:23:29

Henderson was talking about depression.

430

: 00:23:31

I worked with many people where

depression is their protective mechanism

431

: 00:23:38

and and pills didn't do anything for

them until they really, really looked

432

: 00:23:43

at what is the threat if I do this.

433

: 00:23:46

So a prediction correction

is, first of all, you have to

434

: 00:23:50

become conscious of the threat.

435

: 00:23:52

If I do this, then this will happen to me.

436

: 00:23:57

That's hard for people.

437

: 00:23:59

Mike: Yeah,

438

: 00:23:59

Brian: because the emotional brain is

logical, but it's most often irrational.

439

: 00:24:07

I've had people predict, if I voice my

opinion to my family, they will oust me.

440

: 00:24:14

They will ostracize me, and

I will be like a little child

441

: 00:24:17

left in the woods all alone.

442

: 00:24:19

that's what it felt like.

443

: 00:24:21

Now to a 37 or 40-year-old man

or woman, that makes no sense.

444

: 00:24:27

It's irrational, but to the

emotional brain, it's very logical.

445

: 00:24:33

So as a result, they would then withdraw

and not do anything, not say anything

446

: 00:24:37

that that pattern would get reinforced.

447

: 00:24:40

A prediction correction.

448

: 00:24:43

When you're in an activated state

and you have to be in the activated

449

: 00:24:46

state, you then bring in information.

450

: 00:24:50

That is a mismatch to the prediction

that counters the prediction.

451

: 00:24:56

That in fact says, wait a minute,

that prediction is not valid at all.

452

: 00:25:02

Look at how many times I have

expressed myself or my family.

453

: 00:25:06

They didn't ostracize me,

they didn't reject me.

454

: 00:25:12

And when you pair like Bluetooth,

when you pair in this anxious state,

455

: 00:25:18

which is the prediction state with

a information that the brain says,

456

: 00:25:27

wait a minute, this doesn't match.

457

: 00:25:31

And because of its survival,

it has to update itself.

458

: 00:25:34

So we get this activated neural network.

459

: 00:25:40

When you bring in information

that contradicts what that

460

: 00:25:44

learning is that you've now made

conscious if this, then this, and.

461

: 00:25:48

Then the brain de consolidates, unwire

that neural network and that can stay

462

: 00:25:55

open from up to about five hours.

463

: 00:25:58

Research has found during which

time you can continue the update and

464

: 00:26:03

then it reconsolidate with the new

information as a result of the update.

465

: 00:26:08

So the correction, the prediction

correction is very important.

466

: 00:26:15

It has to, it can't just be affirmations.

467

: 00:26:19

It has to be lived, some

lived experience or awareness.

468

: 00:26:23

I've had people in sessions just

p like, oh my God, they just

469

: 00:26:28

snapped out of a trance when they

introduced a prediction correction.

470

: 00:26:33

to their brain.

471

: 00:26:34

To their brain when they're activated.

472

: 00:26:36

And that's the difference between this

model or this approach versus standard

473

: 00:26:43

psychotherapy, which would counteract.

474

: 00:26:45

Push against, develop an alternative

neural network that competes with the

475

: 00:26:50

one that is the symptom causing one.

476

: 00:26:53

This new approach is, no, no,

you engage this, you go under it.

477

: 00:26:59

Make yourself conscious.

478

: 00:27:00

Introduce prediction,

correction information.

479

: 00:27:05

I've had many people have ponta.

480

: 00:27:07

I talk about spontaneous transformations

when you suddenly become aware, and I

481

: 00:27:15

I, I used it in my, I my wife is a great

chef, and every time she gave me feedback,

482

: 00:27:21

you didn't come to the onion, right?

483

: 00:27:22

Or blah, blah, blah.

484

: 00:27:23

I would feel attacked.

485

: 00:27:25

She, she's not attacking me.

486

: 00:27:26

Mm-hmm.

487

: 00:27:27

But I would like what, and before I used

to withdraw, then I realized, what is

488

: 00:27:32

my brain predicting that is causing me

to withdraw, to kind of get resentful?

489

: 00:27:38

Oh, that she's gonna reject me

because I'm not very good at.

490

: 00:27:43

That felt true.

491

: 00:27:44

It feels true, Michael, here's

the thing, when you touch into an

492

: 00:27:50

emotional learning, it feels true.

493

: 00:27:53

Mm-hmm.

494

: 00:27:53

Mm-hmm.

495

: 00:27:54

Mm-hmm.

496

: 00:27:55

The emotional brain doesn't know time.

497

: 00:27:57

Yeah.

498

: 00:27:57

So you may have learned that

40 years ago, but when it gets

499

: 00:28:01

activated today, it feels true today.

500

: 00:28:03

Mm-hmm.

501

: 00:28:04

Mike: Mm-hmm.

502

: 00:28:04

Brian: And but wait a minute,

my wife's not gonna read.

503

: 00:28:08

Are you kidding me?

504

: 00:28:08

We've married 38 years and I'm

still learning how to be a and

505

: 00:28:11

now when it happens, I laugh.

506

: 00:28:14

We kinda laugh about it.

507

: 00:28:15

I say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

508

: 00:28:18

It's a, it's a scintilla of what it

was before I learned this information.

509

: 00:28:24

So

510

: 00:28:27

prediction, corrections are critical,

and as a way of thinking, when you

511

: 00:28:31

start to think this way, then I call

it trigger and foreign mindfulness.

512

: 00:28:36

You become aware, whoa.

513

: 00:28:38

That just triggered me, what is the

threat that my brain is predicting?

514

: 00:28:44

Mike: Mm-hmm.

515

: 00:28:45

Brian: I'm with my friends,

I'm having at the golf game.

516

: 00:28:48

I'm out to dinner, a friend's talk,

telling me about their vacation,

517

: 00:28:52

and I'm having this reaction.

518

: 00:28:54

Mm-hmm.

519

: 00:28:55

Brian: What's going on in me?

520

: 00:28:58

Yeah.

521

: 00:28:58

It, it, it's, oh, yeah.

522

: 00:29:02

Yeah.

523

: 00:29:02

It, it strikes me that, one of the key

concepts I think, that I extracted from

524

: 00:29:06

that fascinating explanation was the

notion of the importance of the embodied.

525

: 00:29:14

Aspect of, of, of an emotional experience.

526

: 00:29:17

Right.

527

: 00:29:17

Because even, and I, I think

particularly maybe for clinicians,

528

: 00:29:21

academics, people that tend to live

in our minds and our cognition, the

529

: 00:29:26

whole idea about being emotionally

intelligent, it's probably only half

530

: 00:29:29

the battle you can be as emotionally

intelligent in your head as you want.

531

: 00:29:32

Yeah, exactly.

532

: 00:29:33

But if it's not, if it's not an

embodied experience, we're not

533

: 00:29:36

taught, we're not taught anything

about emotions and feelings as kids,

534

: 00:29:39

Brian: Nope.

535

: 00:29:40

For the most part, but even less so about

how emotions are experienced in the body.

536

: 00:29:45

Right.

537

: 00:29:47

Brian: That's so, that is so accurate.

538

: 00:29:49

And, and one of the things I've

shared with parents who sometimes

539

: 00:29:54

in presentations they'll say,

well, what do I do with my kid?

540

: 00:29:58

All they want to do is

look at their phone.

541

: 00:30:00

And, and we know research is clear

that there's no vagal stimulation.

542

: 00:30:07

When you look at a phone, you're

basically v vagal neutral or shut down.

543

: 00:30:12

And so because of that,

what are they learning?

544

: 00:30:16

What is the emotional learning

that's happening when you

545

: 00:30:19

are looking at a device?

546

: 00:30:21

where's the relational aspect, the

interpersonal neurobiological aspect of

547

: 00:30:26

using Daniel Siegel's term is missing.

548

: 00:30:30

yeah.

549

: 00:30:30

It, and I've worked with many parents

who have reactivity, a lot of reaction,

550

: 00:30:37

but their kids do certain things.

551

: 00:30:38

I'm thinking, gentleman, this last

week we went into what your kids

552

: 00:30:43

could do and what your kid does.

553

: 00:30:44

Let's go into you, what do

you want to be different?

554

: 00:30:48

I want to be calm and present.

555

: 00:30:52

Okay?

556

: 00:30:52

So what is the threat of being calm

and present and what he discovered?

557

: 00:30:57

Was that if my child is acting out,

people will see me as a parent who

558

: 00:31:02

doesn't care as an incompetent person,

and I will feel the shame of that.

559

: 00:31:07

That goes back to a lot of his history and

so when he realized that he was able to

560

: 00:31:12

introduce prediction corrections so that,

and I'll be seeing him next week, but we

561

: 00:31:18

got, really, let's take a look at that.

562

: 00:31:21

Are people really gonna do that?

563

: 00:31:23

No.

564

: 00:31:24

Especially when you're just with

your son and nobody's in the house.

565

: 00:31:28

Right?

566

: 00:31:28

It's just, but it generalized

it and so these triggers that,

567

: 00:31:36

that we all experience are,

are when they become patterns.

568

: 00:31:43

Yeah.

569

: 00:31:44

Well, I can relate to

that, that last story.

570

: 00:31:47

I think it's, this has been

a therapeutic section of the

571

: 00:31:50

conversation for me for sure.

572

: 00:31:52

I feel like I'm getting a bonus here

because I know exactly how that feels.

573

: 00:31:58

Mike: Yeah.

574

: 00:31:58

Yeah.

575

: 00:31:59

It's, it's, it's fascinating, right?

576

: 00:32:00

Because I think that, again, for a long

time it seems that emotional memory

577

: 00:32:05

to a certain extent as you referenced,

the, the greats, in terms of this idea

578

: 00:32:09

that we were born as a Tabula Raza blank

slate, and then we have emotional memory

579

: 00:32:14

that's kind of stamped in and hard wired.

580

: 00:32:15

Mm-hmm.

581

: 00:32:16

But, but then it seems that more recently,

neurosciences discovering concepts

582

: 00:32:20

like memory reconsolidation, so, yep.

583

: 00:32:23

Maybe as it relates to your work, can

you explain a little bit about this

584

: 00:32:27

idea about memory reconsolidation in

terms of emotional memories and why it

585

: 00:32:32

represents such a radical departure from

the legacy symptom management approach?

586

: 00:32:37

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

587

: 00:32:37

Yeah.

588

: 00:32:40

I, my original training in psychotherapy

was the counteract that's battled

589

: 00:32:47

these symptoms, overcome them.

590

: 00:32:49

And then if you can't, then

here's the relaxation techniques

591

: 00:32:53

to soothe yourself afterwards.

592

: 00:32:54

So you had two approaches.

593

: 00:32:56

One push against it.

594

: 00:32:59

They, okay.

595

: 00:32:59

Soothe yourself if it doesn't

happen and get insight.

596

: 00:33:03

and my experience with insight is

insight has never changed anything.

597

: 00:33:07

That's right.

598

: 00:33:08

May, in fact, many times it may be more

frustrated because I had insight and I

599

: 00:33:12

thought, I get, but I'm not changing.

600

: 00:33:15

I'm still reacting.

601

: 00:33:16

There must be something wrong with me.

602

: 00:33:17

Maybe I'm not getting it.

603

: 00:33:18

I would become critical of myself.

604

: 00:33:20

And I know many people that do, with

this new motif, if you will, this

605

: 00:33:25

new, this paradigm that's emerging is

instead of overcoming, we engage in, we.

606

: 00:33:35

As, as a therapist, you know, we listen

and try to feedback and in doing that,

607

: 00:33:42

and people can do this for themselves,

which is wonderful, is go deeper.

608

: 00:33:47

You can go underneath techniques such

as focusing, or I suggest people that

609

: 00:33:53

use a, a phone recorder to record

what happens when you get into the

610

: 00:33:59

embodied experience of anxiety.

611

: 00:34:02

Now, un understandably, there's people

that experienced very significant trauma

612

: 00:34:06

that they need to be very careful.

613

: 00:34:08

And I have those caveats in the

book, but for the vast majority

614

: 00:34:13

of us, it's little t traumas that

be, that generate the patterns.

615

: 00:34:19

And so once that becomes a neural network,

an emotional learning that correlates

616

: 00:34:29

experience.

617

: 00:34:31

Something happened with

desire or something.

618

: 00:34:35

I want to, Hey mommy,

I want your attention.

619

: 00:34:38

Of course.

620

: 00:34:38

And you go up and you grab Mommy.

621

: 00:34:40

Oh, okay.

622

: 00:34:41

And mommy turns, mommy's busy.

623

: 00:34:43

And this is not about mommy.

624

: 00:34:45

This is about what I learned.

625

: 00:34:47

Okay.

626

: 00:34:48

I, oh, I made mommy upset.

627

: 00:34:50

I'm responsible for mommy's feelings,

which is, and as we know for

628

: 00:34:56

children, is part of their survival

book is they, I my life to, not

629

: 00:35:02

consciously, but as young mammals.

630

: 00:35:05

So we adapt, we have to adapt.

631

: 00:35:09

And Wordsworth has a wonderful

way of describing that.

632

: 00:35:12

May I read you the first part of his poem?

633

: 00:35:14

Please do.

634

: 00:35:15

Yeah, absolutely.

635

: 00:35:17

Brian: Yeah.

636

: 00:35:17

This is from OO to, intimations

of immortality from his, re

637

: 00:35:22

recollections of childhood.

638

: 00:35:24

And it says the very beginning, our

birth is but asleep and a forgetting.

639

: 00:35:29

The soul that rises with us,

our life star has elsewhere.

640

: 00:35:36

It's setting, and he goes on

and then he says this at length.

641

: 00:35:41

The man perceives it, die away

and fade into the light of day.

642

: 00:35:48

That process, and

there's a lot more to it.

643

: 00:35:51

That process is the process of how

emotional learning creates the ego

644

: 00:35:58

self, or I call it the adaptive self.

645

: 00:36:03

Mike: Mm-hmm.

646

: 00:36:04

Brian: Rather than ego, which tends

to have a negative connotation.

647

: 00:36:09

It's an adaptive self.

648

: 00:36:11

The child has to adapt.

649

: 00:36:13

Those adaptations become for

most of us, some, all of us,

650

: 00:36:20

to some degree maladaptive.

651

: 00:36:23

Symptoms problems later.

652

: 00:36:26

Member Reconsolidation enables us to go

back and actually change those learnings

653

: 00:36:33

at the synaptic level in the brain, which

is enduring transformation, not temporary

654

: 00:36:42

problem resolution or insight site.

655

: 00:36:45

I could not be talking to you right

now, Michael, if that, if I had not

656

: 00:36:49

experienced that firsthand and not

continued to exp I would, I I would,

657

: 00:36:53

I would not be talking with you 'cause

the book would not have been written.

658

: 00:36:59

Yeah.

659

: 00:37:00

No, it's, it's, that you can tell

in the, the, the, the passion that

660

: 00:37:04

you bring to just talking about it

and with bringing in that profound

661

: 00:37:08

poetry, it makes so much sense.

662

: 00:37:10

It's, it's really a beautiful thing.

663

: 00:37:11

And I think it's, I especially love this

idea of turning the label of a flaw into

664

: 00:37:17

a protection, so that radical reframing

for things like imposter syndrome or

665

: 00:37:21

people facing avoidance, that those

aren't flaws, but they're more like

666

: 00:37:25

protective adaptations or maladaptations.

667

: 00:37:28

Yes.

668

: 00:37:29

So that shift in just the description

of the labeling, to me it seems like it

669

: 00:37:33

really changes, it sets the stage for

that more emotional tone of healing.

670

: 00:37:36

Right.

671

: 00:37:38

Brian: I, one of the primary

reasons that I wrote the book.

672

: 00:37:41

Because I, I know what it's

like to criticize oneself.

673

: 00:37:45

I know, I hear my patients,

my clients come down on

674

: 00:37:48

themself, what's wrong with me?

675

: 00:37:50

And, and which just adds more

levels of pain and suffering

676

: 00:37:55

to what they're experiencing.

677

: 00:37:58

It is not a character flaw.

678

: 00:38:00

It it, it is, it's a, an evolutionary,

the brain is doing its job that

679

: 00:38:07

it was designed to do and it just

doesn't need to do it anymore.

680

: 00:38:11

'cause it's doing it based on

past history that doesn't exist.

681

: 00:38:15

But the brain doesn't know that it's

just doing what it was created to do.

682

: 00:38:21

And it's doing a very good job.

683

: 00:38:23

That's why I call it the adaptive self.

684

: 00:38:25

It is,

685

: 00:38:29

there's nothing wrong with us except we've

learned some things that no longer apply.

686

: 00:38:35

And if we can update those things, maybe.

687

: 00:38:38

Let me, it was interesting.

688

: 00:38:40

Let me share one thing with you,

689

: 00:38:41

please, sir.

690

: 00:38:42

Brian: I, a couple weeks ago, I,

I was doing some research around

691

: 00:38:47

emotional evolution, spiritual

evolution and technolo or cognitive e

692

: 00:38:52

evolution as measured by technology.

693

: 00:38:57

And I drew a curve, went back a

along, I, obviously very subjective.

694

: 00:39:02

I drew a curve and we had the wheel

and, and then the printing press,

695

: 00:39:06

and then around the 19 hundreds

and the two thousands, oh my gosh.

696

: 00:39:12

The technology curve was,

it just was exponential.

697

: 00:39:18

When I looked at emotional evolution

in terms of how we evolved as a

698

: 00:39:22

species, the line was literally flat.

699

: 00:39:26

Mike: Mm-hmm.

700

: 00:39:26

Brian: And what I see now, given

the degree of war and violence and,

701

: 00:39:32

and, and, and what's happening in

the world, maybe even declining.

702

: 00:39:36

There's the spiritual evolution.

703

: 00:39:38

That's a whole different one, but, and my

concern is that the gap here and the gap

704

: 00:39:44

here becomes so great that emotionally

we cannot tolerate the technology.

705

: 00:39:51

And it will, I pray not, but

as the potential obviously

706

: 00:39:57

to destroy us as a species.

707

: 00:39:59

Mike: Mm-hmm.

708

: 00:39:59

Brian: Unless we evolve emotionally.

709

: 00:40:02

And to me that means changing the way

we think about childhood, the way we

710

: 00:40:10

deal with changes, and really working

with affect, working with our bodies.

711

: 00:40:16

Mm-hmm.

712

: 00:40:16

And not just our heads.

713

: 00:40:17

Yeah.

714

: 00:40:20

That, that disconnect between

the, the technological advancement

715

: 00:40:23

and our emotional awareness.

716

: 00:40:25

It, it strikes me that, that,

717

: 00:40:26

Mike: yeah,

718

: 00:40:27

almost by definition sets, sets people

up for an inherent sense of shame

719

: 00:40:32

as though there's something wrong

with me because I can't, I don't

720

: 00:40:34

seem, there's like a, a mismatch.

721

: 00:40:37

A misalignment.

722

: 00:40:38

A great friend of mine has

just used that term recently.

723

: 00:40:42

And so, I'm curious then from your

perspective, what, what happens

724

: 00:40:46

when, say we're able to identify

that shame is a critical component

725

: 00:40:51

Mike: mm-hmm.

726

: 00:40:51

That, that, that's, that's

has to be addressed.

727

: 00:40:54

So what, what happens then when shame.

728

: 00:40:56

Is identified and then kind of

drops out of the system that opens,

729

: 00:41:00

opens people up for, for healing.

730

: 00:41:02

I imagine

731

: 00:41:03

Brian: it, and shame oftentimes you,

it plays such a significant role, as a

732

: 00:41:08

feeling in them because it's very toxic.

733

: 00:41:11

The thing I, as is I ask people to think

about is, okay, as a result of this

734

: 00:41:16

shame, are you going to be abandoned?

735

: 00:41:20

Are you going to be rejected ostracized?

736

: 00:41:23

Are you, do you feel physical

endangerment, betrayal, or engulfment?

737

: 00:41:31

The five major threats that

children experience, but

738

: 00:41:36

they can't put a word on it.

739

: 00:41:37

They, they can't put a word on it

'cause they don't have the vocabulary,

740

: 00:41:41

they just have it as an experience.

741

: 00:41:43

So when shame is an

emotion, the real threat.

742

: 00:41:49

Is abandonment, rejection, physical,

endangerment, engulfment, somebody

743

: 00:41:54

taking over my sense of being, which

gets in the way of having close

744

: 00:41:59

and intimate relationships because

the threat of that is I will lose

745

: 00:42:03

myself and, and, and betrayal.

746

: 00:42:09

Those, those are hard for

people to identify as what's

747

: 00:42:15

going to happen to them.

748

: 00:42:16

if you're a 44-year-old competent

executive, but you can't really, you're

749

: 00:42:22

not speaking up at meetings because

you experience the threat of shame and

750

: 00:42:27

inadequacy and you will be rejected.

751

: 00:42:33

That's powerful stuff.

752

: 00:42:36

And it's very real.

753

: 00:42:37

It's very, very real.

754

: 00:42:40

so once, the key thing is to really,

what is the real threat here?

755

: 00:42:46

What is the real threat if I do this?

756

: 00:42:49

And that's hard for people

because oh yeah, okay.

757

: 00:42:52

People reject me.

758

: 00:42:53

Big deal.

759

: 00:42:54

Ah, it's not you.

760

: 00:42:57

That feels the rejection.

761

: 00:42:58

You're feeling it based on this

very painful experience that you had

762

: 00:43:04

first seven, first 15 years of life.

763

: 00:43:07

That was ongoing, but yeah.

764

: 00:43:10

Mm-hmm.

765

: 00:43:11

Yeah.

766

: 00:43:12

What's your sense of where,

the, the, the, the role?

767

: 00:43:17

It strikes me that compassion

has a critical role.

768

: 00:43:20

Brian: Mm-hmm.

769

: 00:43:20

Not only in terms of from the

therapist, but compassion for oneself.

770

: 00:43:24

I'm just curious to know what, what

more about the role and maybe even

771

: 00:43:28

some ideas about how that alters the

neuroplasticity that you talked about.

772

: 00:43:33

Enduring changes for the better.

773

: 00:43:40

Brian: My experience, Michael has been

person and professional, has been that

774

: 00:43:45

once, one, once you can under, once I can

understand, once somebody understand that

775

: 00:43:52

what you've been doing to change is you've

been counting, countering evolution, you

776

: 00:43:57

kind of fighting the evolutionary bias of

the brain and the brain's gonna win that.

777

: 00:44:05

Having compassion for that part

of me that wants to protect me.

778

: 00:44:09

Mm-hmm.

779

: 00:44:10

in internal family system like the

firefighter or that wants to really

780

: 00:44:14

protect me, but the role doesn't work in.

781

: 00:44:18

But still having compassion

for that part of me that, and

782

: 00:44:23

having compassion for the past.

783

: 00:44:27

I know my own experience once again,

and with my clients, once they discover

784

: 00:44:32

or uncover and realize what's really

going on here, there's a lot of grief.

785

: 00:44:40

Grief over lost choices, grief over

mistakes, grief as a result of this

786

: 00:44:46

maladaptive, protective behavior and with

grief, the invitation for compassion.

787

: 00:44:54

Oh, let me hold myself, let me hold

that part of me that learned this.

788

: 00:45:02

Let me hold that part of me in love

and in caring, not in anger, not in

789

: 00:45:09

hurt, but and, and an appreciation

for truly, we're always doing our

790

: 00:45:16

best, given what we're conscious of.

791

: 00:45:18

And if I can expand my consciousness,

then I also enhance how I

792

: 00:45:25

can be my best in the world.

793

: 00:45:27

but people say, you need

to love yourself now.

794

: 00:45:30

I hear that a lot.

795

: 00:45:31

Yeah, man.

796

: 00:45:32

It's kinda like, dude.

797

: 00:45:35

I get it.

798

: 00:45:36

And, and but how do you do that?

799

: 00:45:38

Mike: Yeah.

800

: 00:45:40

Brian: How do I feel Love for

myself, and I think compassion.

801

: 00:45:44

My experience, compassion is the gateway,

the path to that love for oneself.

802

: 00:45:51

Yeah.

803

: 00:45:51

I have to start with compassion for

myself and go, oh, and then, then,

804

: 00:45:56

then you enter the spiritual component

of it too, which is another avenue,

805

: 00:46:01

but it it, it plays a part in there.

806

: 00:46:03

Yeah.

807

: 00:46:03

Yeah.

808

: 00:46:04

I think it's really interesting to

even think about the derivation of the

809

: 00:46:07

word compassion to suffer alongside,

810

: 00:46:10

Brian: alongside,

811

: 00:46:11

I think people often forget that.

812

: 00:46:13

So it's suffering alongside

of the self, the wounded self.

813

: 00:46:17

Yes.

814

: 00:46:17

As opposed to just trying, as you

say, to put on a brave face or,

815

: 00:46:21

or just try and love yourself.

816

: 00:46:22

It's, it's bit more complicated than that.

817

: 00:46:25

Yeah.

818

: 00:46:27

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

819

: 00:46:27

It's like when people say, let go and.

820

: 00:46:31

Yeah, I've been trying for 10 years.

821

: 00:46:33

what do you mean exactly?

822

: 00:46:34

because what I need to let go of

is something I'm not conscious

823

: 00:46:37

of that I learned that is not

letting go of the behavior.

824

: 00:46:42

'cause the behavior survey a function.

825

: 00:46:44

Yeah.

826

: 00:46:44

Brian: It's letting go of what I

learned that is causing the behavior.

827

: 00:46:48

Right.

828

: 00:46:48

Brian: And that's a different phenomenon.

829

: 00:46:50

That that's a whole different phenomenon.

830

: 00:46:53

Yeah.

831

: 00:46:54

and and so it makes me think that,

and I'd like to, to, maybe focus in

832

: 00:46:58

more on your method and your book in

particular, but, and so I know that

833

: 00:47:01

there's an importance to this, what

you described as the five step process.

834

: 00:47:05

And that I understand that your, ideas

that it's not so much of a formula,

835

: 00:47:09

but a self informed and self-directed

transformation, which I really love.

836

: 00:47:13

I love that it builds in this sense

of agency, which is super important I

837

: 00:47:16

think for, for therapeutic purposes.

838

: 00:47:18

Brian: Oh, oh, couldn't agree more.

839

: 00:47:20

Yeah.

840

: 00:47:22

And so I guess maybe for viewers

and listeners that might be somewhat

841

: 00:47:25

skeptical after years of therapy or

self-help of the kind that we're just

842

: 00:47:29

alluding to here, what is it maybe that

they should expect that's genuinely

843

: 00:47:33

different, about your approach, what

you've learned and what's in your book?

844

: 00:47:37

Brian: that's a great question.

845

: 00:47:44

This is not about overcoming, doing

battle with fighting against counteracting

846

: 00:47:54

the problems and symptoms, including

depression now, differentiating,

847

: 00:47:59

exogenous and endogenous depression.

848

: 00:48:01

But for many, I've experienced

as depression, for example, as a

849

: 00:48:05

secondary symptom to withdrawal.

850

: 00:48:09

So it's, it's kind of like an outcome

of a withdrawal and avoidance process.

851

: 00:48:15

and I've also experienced

people where depression is their

852

: 00:48:17

primary protective mechanism.

853

: 00:48:20

Very, I especially, it is interest,

especially older people over 50,

854

: 00:48:27

really, really seen that,

that depression is there.

855

: 00:48:30

Primary protective, the

adaptive self uses depression.

856

: 00:48:34

Mike: Mm-hmm.

857

: 00:48:35

Brian: that the challenge is we live in

a society that wants to push through,

858

: 00:48:43

wants to control it, wants to avoid it.

859

: 00:48:48

Wants to overcome it.

860

: 00:48:50

you, you, if you look at advertisements

is overcome this and battle through

861

: 00:48:54

this and you, this way of being,

this way of transforming us is

862

: 00:49:00

a totally different paradigm.

863

: 00:49:02

You don't mm-hmm.

864

: 00:49:03

You engage with, you go

underneath the symptom.

865

: 00:49:09

To what is really, really going

on and the origin of that being

866

: 00:49:13

that original emotional learning.

867

: 00:49:15

The first step is being real clear.

868

: 00:49:18

What do you want to be different

for yourself in a positive sense?

869

: 00:49:22

What's the problem?

870

: 00:49:23

But what do you want to be different?

871

: 00:49:25

Now, if you imagine that difference

and doing, expressing yourself,

872

: 00:49:30

saying no, completing a workout

program, losing 50 pounds, I've had

873

: 00:49:36

people who, they go on diets after

about six months, they eat again.

874

: 00:49:41

They go back to their old weight

because when they lose the

875

: 00:49:45

weight, they become attractive.

876

: 00:49:47

And to become attractive is to

be seen and there's to be signi.

877

: 00:49:52

And that is very uncomfortable.

878

: 00:49:54

It's terrifying to be seen because of

what they learned about being seen.

879

: 00:50:00

And so naturally the brain is gonna do

its thing and it's gonna, this, these.

880

: 00:50:06

Ways of really being clear.

881

: 00:50:08

And then when you're clear about what

you want to be different, then you

882

: 00:50:12

will experience as I want to write, for

example, you will experience, when you

883

: 00:50:16

think about it, imagine it be in situ.

884

: 00:50:18

In fact, I even suggested people,

once they've clarified the problem

885

: 00:50:22

pattern and the very specific positive

change thing, not the absence of

886

: 00:50:27

a negative, and then discover it.

887

: 00:50:31

They actually spend one or two or three

weeks observing themselves in the world

888

: 00:50:38

experiencing this to really ground it.

889

: 00:50:40

And some people say, I don't wanna,

that's an I don't wanna strengthen it.

890

: 00:50:46

I said, I understand.

891

: 00:50:47

I don't want you to strengthen it.

892

: 00:50:48

I want you to observe it.

893

: 00:50:50

Look at there it is.

894

: 00:50:51

That way you can change the wording.

895

: 00:50:54

Maybe you'll discover, oh,

there's a lot more here.

896

: 00:50:57

Maybe you'll make linkages to

early caregiver experiences

897

: 00:51:01

that you didn't have.

898

: 00:51:03

And then once you've done

that, you've observed it.

899

: 00:51:07

And you've validated it in your body.

900

: 00:51:10

It's a, it's a emotional

sensory evaluation.

901

: 00:51:14

It's not here, it's here because

that's where the action is.

902

: 00:51:17

It's in the body.

903

: 00:51:18

And once you've done that, then you can

really look at, and I've got ways of

904

: 00:51:23

people to really look at how do you create

prediction, corrections, information that

905

: 00:51:28

corrects what you identified as the threat

to you that you learned a long time ago,

906

: 00:51:34

but feels like it's gonna happen today?

907

: 00:51:36

Because that's how the

emotional brain works.

908

: 00:51:39

'cause it doesn't know

time, it just knows now.

909

: 00:51:42

Mike: Yeah.

910

: 00:51:42

Brian: And, and then introducing to

the brain when you're in an activated

911

: 00:51:48

state, that prediction, correction

information, And then observe afterwards.

912

: 00:51:55

Observe what happens.

913

: 00:51:57

But you have to be in the, that Bluetooth,

you've got to be in that activated state,

914

: 00:52:01

Mike: right.

915

: 00:52:01

Brian: In order to de consolidate

for the network to de consolidate.

916

: 00:52:06

Once it's unwired, then new learning,

the brain is recognized, a mismatch,

917

: 00:52:13

and it's going to do what it was

designed to do, update itself so

918

: 00:52:19

it can be prepared for the future.

919

: 00:52:21

Mike: Mm-hmm.

920

: 00:52:22

Brian: It's, it's such a human technology.

921

: 00:52:25

It just, it blow what?

922

: 00:52:28

Yeah.

923

: 00:52:28

It blows me away.

924

: 00:52:30

And I, and then also, what's

important, Michael, I, I, in the

925

: 00:52:37

book, I talk about this is, as you

do this, you need to recognize the

926

: 00:52:41

systems in which you function are

going to sh you're, you're shifting

927

: 00:52:45

everybody's relationship with you.

928

: 00:52:46

Mike: Mm-hmm.

929

: 00:52:47

Brian: And that's

uncomfortable for people.

930

: 00:52:50

They're used to you being a certain

way and all of a sudden you're not.

931

: 00:52:54

So I have recommendations of

how to deal with that and what

932

: 00:52:57

communication skills you need to

adapt to reinforce the transformation

933

: 00:53:03

that you're making that oftentimes

gets lo left out of so many books.

934

: 00:53:07

It's absolutely essential.

935

: 00:53:09

The aftermath of the shift is really,

really important in dealing with your

936

: 00:53:14

experience and others experience of you.

937

: 00:53:17

Yeah,

938

: 00:53:18

definitely.

939

: 00:53:19

Yeah.

940

: 00:53:19

That's very, very important.

941

: 00:53:21

and, and I love the, the

message, the hopeful message.

942

: 00:53:23

just in terms of the, the

adaptive nature of the brain,

943

: 00:53:26

the neuroplastic changes Yes.

944

: 00:53:28

That are, that are possible.

945

: 00:53:30

And that, that, it really is,

it's very optimistic and hopeful.

946

: 00:53:33

So that's,

947

: 00:53:34

Brian: and it's so wonderful when Dr.

948

: 00:53:36

Henderson, the last, when he was

on and he talked about insufficient

949

: 00:53:40

neuroplasticity, I suddenly realized, oh.

950

: 00:53:44

Memory consolidation is a process

that is an outcome of creating

951

: 00:53:51

sufficient neuroplasticity.

952

: 00:53:53

Really?

953

: 00:53:54

That's what it's, and I didn't

realize that, and all of a sudden I

954

: 00:53:57

saw it very clearly is, oh my gosh.

955

: 00:53:59

Yeah.

956

: 00:53:59

That's what's happening.

957

: 00:54:01

It's not activating and reinforcing,

it's activating and de consolidating

958

: 00:54:07

so that neuroplasticity can now happen.

959

: 00:54:10

Mm-hmm.

960

: 00:54:11

It opens itself up.

961

: 00:54:12

The learning can be updated.

962

: 00:54:15

The symptom is no longer needed.

963

: 00:54:17

The problem isn't needed anymore

because the, cause the learning has

964

: 00:54:23

been updated, it's been updated.

965

: 00:54:26

Absolutely fascinating.

966

: 00:54:27

It's,

967

: 00:54:27

Brian: it is,

968

: 00:54:28

it's kind of like how, even other kinds

of treatment options like ketamine and

969

: 00:54:33

different types of psychedelics mm-hmm.

970

: 00:54:35

Are, are kind of known to

enhance neuroplasticity and yeah.

971

: 00:54:38

Make, make space for those sorts

of therapeutic changes as well.

972

: 00:54:41

Brian: You bet.

973

: 00:54:41

You bet.

974

: 00:54:42

I've several clients that have done it.

975

: 00:54:43

It was interesting that you were

talking about the vi, he was

976

: 00:54:46

talking about the viral infection.

977

: 00:54:47

I had a client, a dentist

work for a long time.

978

: 00:54:51

He was on five medications by the time

it took about 18 months, two years of

979

: 00:54:56

really intense doing this kind of work,

this emotional learning and everything.

980

: 00:55:00

And he was on half a boost bar.

981

: 00:55:03

He was just phenomenal change, but

he still kept experiencing symptoms.

982

: 00:55:09

It turned out he had Lyme's

disease, Lyme, and had not been.

983

: 00:55:14

Diagnosed and it was causing, now

he's getting treatment for that.

984

: 00:55:18

And that really reinforced for me what Dr.

985

: 00:55:21

Henderson was talking about is the

importance of looking at other factors,

986

: 00:55:26

viral and bacterial that, may be in.

987

: 00:55:30

Exacerbating the symptoms in a Yeah,

988

: 00:55:33

definitely.

989

: 00:55:34

No, absolutely.

990

: 00:55:35

Yeah.

991

: 00:55:35

It's, it is important just to make

sure that, you have a comprehensive

992

: 00:55:39

kind of health plan with, just making

sure that you've had the lab workup

993

: 00:55:42

and just everything's been considered.

994

: 00:55:44

Yeah.

995

: 00:55:44

'cause there's a lot of potential

for comorbidity, different

996

: 00:55:47

problems contributing to

emotional symptoms, for sure.

997

: 00:55:51

Brian: Yeah, very definitely.

998

: 00:55:52

And as a result of that experience, I,

I have a much more, what I would call

999

: 00:55:57

comprehensive discussion about the symptom

and the problem that I had in the past.

: 1000

00:56:03,158 --> 00:56:03,938

For that very reason.

: 1001

00:56:03,938 --> 00:56:05,553

For that very reason, definitely.

: 1002

00:56:05,673 --> 00:56:05,913

Yeah.

: 1003

00:56:05,918 --> 00:56:05,938

Yeah.

: 1004

00:56:06,008 --> 00:56:06,298

Yeah.

: 1005

00:56:06,373 --> 00:56:06,943

well that's great.

: 1006

00:56:06,943 --> 00:56:10,543

So I guess maybe as we kind of look to

wrapping up here, I, I would be interested

: 1007

00:56:10,543 --> 00:56:14,743

to know if you could, what would be,

from, from, your extensive experience

: 1008

00:56:14,743 --> 00:56:19,093

and, and, and all your thoughtful work

and, and your writing on this, if, if

: 1009

00:56:19,093 --> 00:56:23,623

there's one or two fundamental kinds

of reorientations, one thing that

: 1010

00:56:23,623 --> 00:56:28,093

people, that you would hope that people

finally stop blaming themselves for.

: 1011

00:56:28,513 --> 00:56:31,153

And we've talked a bit about shame,

it's such a, a broad term, but I

: 1012

00:56:31,153 --> 00:56:32,488

was just curious, is there mm-hmm.

: 1013

00:56:32,713 --> 00:56:35,383

There's something in one kind

of particular one or two kind of

: 1014

00:56:35,383 --> 00:56:38,623

particular things that you would

wanna to sort of leave us with

: 1015

00:56:38,623 --> 00:56:40,423

as, as, as a hopeful message?

: 1016

00:56:40,423 --> 00:56:41,683

One thing that people could That's,

: 1017

00:56:42,583 --> 00:56:43,663

Brian: that's a great question.

: 1018

00:56:43,843 --> 00:56:48,043

And Michael, I think about Joseph

Campbell's statement, the cave you fear

: 1019

00:56:48,043 --> 00:56:51,733

to enter holds the treasure that you seek.

: 1020

00:56:51,883 --> 00:56:52,033

Mike: Mm-hmm.

: 1021

00:56:53,533 --> 00:56:56,473

Brian: And what I mean by that, and

I think what he meant, but certainly

: 1022

00:56:56,503 --> 00:56:58,873

what I mean by that is if we go.

: 1023

00:56:59,508 --> 00:57:05,398

Within, and we all know sacred texts

for, are full, that it's, the essence

: 1024

00:57:05,398 --> 00:57:08,248

is within that, the cave, if you will.

: 1025

00:57:08,578 --> 00:57:12,058

Now, there are a lot of barriers

there in terms of emotional

: 1026

00:57:12,058 --> 00:57:14,248

learnings, a lot of discomfort.

: 1027

00:57:14,878 --> 00:57:23,668

So going in underneath the symptom,

using a variety of techniques to let

: 1028

00:57:23,668 --> 00:57:29,518

the emotion brain speak its truth,

which is not the truth, but it is

: 1029

00:57:29,518 --> 00:57:32,158

an emotional truth that it learned.

: 1030

00:57:33,028 --> 00:57:36,388

And not because there tendency to let

this thinking brain get in the way.

: 1031

00:57:36,388 --> 00:57:37,648

It is like, oh no, it's not that.

: 1032

00:57:37,648 --> 00:57:40,078

Oh no, but it feels true.

: 1033

00:57:40,888 --> 00:57:42,208

It feels true.

: 1034

00:57:42,208 --> 00:57:43,678

It felt true to me.

: 1035

00:57:44,518 --> 00:57:48,208

And this is the thing that is so

interesting that I want people to know.

: 1036

00:57:48,688 --> 00:57:51,538

When you land upon an emotional learning,

: 1037

00:57:53,818 --> 00:57:55,528

your thinking brain will judge.

: 1038

00:57:56,128 --> 00:57:58,108

As irrational, as illogical.

: 1039

00:57:58,108 --> 00:57:59,248

It makes no sense.

: 1040

00:57:59,728 --> 00:58:01,498

I hear my clients say that often.

: 1041

00:58:01,918 --> 00:58:02,878

That makes no sense.

: 1042

00:58:03,058 --> 00:58:04,918

You're right, it does make no sense.

: 1043

00:58:06,148 --> 00:58:08,098

But to your emotional

brain, it does make sense.

: 1044

00:58:08,368 --> 00:58:12,778

So understanding, when you touch on

these emotional learnings, they are

: 1045

00:58:12,778 --> 00:58:16,228

going to feel true in the present moment.

: 1046

00:58:16,588 --> 00:58:22,678

They're gonna feel true, and that's

why they have so much power, but

: 1047

00:58:22,678 --> 00:58:27,148

they feel true, only because the

emotional brain doesn't know time.

: 1048

00:58:27,598 --> 00:58:30,808

And you do with your cognitive,

intellectual brain, your

: 1049

00:58:30,808 --> 00:58:32,008

thinking brain knows time.

: 1050

00:58:33,388 --> 00:58:39,508

That if people can realize that, that

really, you will know you're in the cave.

: 1051

00:58:40,828 --> 00:58:45,418

And that's where the treasure is

when you discover these threats.

: 1052

00:58:45,988 --> 00:58:50,338

If this happens, if I do this, if

this, then this will happen to me.

: 1053

00:58:50,338 --> 00:58:52,078

They're in the cave.

: 1054

00:58:52,648 --> 00:58:52,948

Mike: Mm-hmm.

: 1055

00:58:53,098 --> 00:58:54,153

Brian: The treasure is waiting.

: 1056

00:58:55,423 --> 00:58:59,683

It just needs to be illuminated

by bringing in the prediction

: 1057

00:58:59,683 --> 00:59:07,753

correction that illuminates opens

up so that the brain can be updated.

: 1058

00:59:08,203 --> 00:59:08,473

Mike: Mm-hmm.

: 1059

00:59:10,303 --> 00:59:13,483

Brian: It, that would

be the primary messages.

: 1060

00:59:14,323 --> 00:59:17,473

we have this beautiful brain of

ours, but we're not our brains.

: 1061

00:59:17,473 --> 00:59:18,373

Mike: Mm-hmm.

: 1062

00:59:18,433 --> 00:59:20,623

Brian: We do have brains, just

like we have hearts and livers,

: 1063

00:59:21,193 --> 00:59:22,363

but we're not our brains.

: 1064

00:59:22,363 --> 00:59:23,563

Mike: Mm-hmm.

: 1065

00:59:23,564 --> 00:59:28,453

Brian: And we can therefore,

therefore transform them in ways

: 1066

00:59:28,453 --> 00:59:30,733

that are just beginning to become.

: 1067

00:59:32,053 --> 00:59:33,043

Oh, phenomenal.

: 1068

00:59:33,043 --> 00:59:33,733

Just phenomenal.

: 1069

00:59:33,733 --> 00:59:33,793

Yeah.

: 1070

00:59:34,093 --> 00:59:34,453

Yeah,

: 1071

00:59:35,038 --> 00:59:35,328

yeah.

: 1072

00:59:35,893 --> 00:59:36,823

No, that's fantastic.

: 1073

00:59:36,823 --> 00:59:37,723

That's just so lovely.

: 1074

00:59:37,723 --> 00:59:40,783

I think, thank you for

bringing that amazing metaphor.

: 1075

00:59:40,783 --> 00:59:45,403

I think we can, we can wrap up by

encouraging everyone to seek their own

: 1076

00:59:45,403 --> 00:59:50,113

caves, to enter the cave, to explore

and, and, and search for the treasure.

: 1077

00:59:50,113 --> 00:59:51,133

And find the treasure.

: 1078

00:59:51,193 --> 00:59:51,583

For sure.

: 1079

00:59:51,823 --> 00:59:51,883

Yeah.

: 1080

00:59:51,883 --> 00:59:56,863

Brian, this has been a deeply

clarifying and inspiring conversation.

: 1081

00:59:57,273 --> 01:00:01,053

what strikes me most is how

your work reframed struggle.

: 1082

01:00:01,423 --> 01:00:04,153

not as a weakness, but

as the nervous system.

: 1083

01:00:04,153 --> 01:00:07,903

The mind, the brain doing

exactly what it learned to do,

: 1084

01:00:07,903 --> 01:00:09,583

which was to protect us, right?

: 1085

01:00:09,613 --> 01:00:09,853

Brian: Yeah.

: 1086

01:00:09,903 --> 01:00:10,123

so

: 1087

01:00:10,123 --> 01:00:10,283

Brian: yeah.

: 1088

01:00:10,283 --> 01:00:10,758

It's a no fault.

: 1089

01:00:10,758 --> 01:00:12,048

It's a no fault process.

: 1090

01:00:12,258 --> 01:00:12,588

Yeah.

: 1091

01:00:12,768 --> 01:00:17,088

Brian: That we can optimize, we

can optimize the brain's learning,

: 1092

01:00:17,358 --> 01:00:20,838

predicting, and adapting process

for enduring transformation.

: 1093

01:00:21,288 --> 01:00:22,458

The neuroscience is there.

: 1094

01:00:22,938 --> 01:00:24,323

Five steps really help it.

: 1095

01:00:25,063 --> 01:00:26,658

We, we can do that.

: 1096

01:00:27,138 --> 01:00:28,368

I know, I know.

: 1097

01:00:29,268 --> 01:00:29,688

For sure.

: 1098

01:00:29,688 --> 01:00:30,318

Absolutely.

: 1099

01:00:30,318 --> 01:00:31,278

No, I, I agree.

: 1100

01:00:31,278 --> 01:00:34,388

I know also, you know, from personal

and from professional experience,

: 1101

01:00:34,388 --> 01:00:38,258

it really resonates and I think, so

for viewers and listeners who may

: 1102

01:00:38,258 --> 01:00:41,258

have spent years managing symptoms,

building coping strategies or,

: 1103

01:00:41,738 --> 01:00:44,378

sometimes with some improvement,

but maybe perhaps still feeling a

: 1104

01:00:44,378 --> 01:00:48,068

bit frustrated, that just insight

alone didn't translate into change.

: 1105

01:00:48,278 --> 01:00:52,688

Hopefully our conversation can help them

to look at opening a different door that,

: 1106

01:00:52,748 --> 01:00:56,738

that you're proposing that's grounded in

modern neuroscience, clinical humility.

: 1107

01:00:56,828 --> 01:01:01,868

I would also add, and so I'd encourage

everyone to check out Brian's book,

: 1108

01:01:01,928 --> 01:01:06,523

living a Trigger Free Life, you know,

for practical science-based framework

: 1109

01:01:06,523 --> 01:01:10,303

that we've been discussing for

understanding and updating these emotional

: 1110

01:01:10,303 --> 01:01:12,733

learnings that may no longer serve us.

: 1111

01:01:13,003 --> 01:01:15,043

So again, Brian, thank you

so much for your courage.

: 1112

01:01:15,043 --> 01:01:15,133

Mm-hmm.

: 1113

01:01:15,323 --> 01:01:19,073

not only in things like questioning your

own profession and for translating this

: 1114

01:01:19,073 --> 01:01:23,658

complex neuroscience into accessible

and relatable language mm-hmm.

: 1115

01:01:23,743 --> 01:01:26,063

For sharing your personal

story along the way.

: 1116

01:01:26,393 --> 01:01:28,513

Really appreciated, the conversation.

: 1117

01:01:28,513 --> 01:01:29,503

Thank you so much.

: 1118

01:01:30,283 --> 01:01:30,973

Brian: My pleasure.

: 1119

01:01:30,973 --> 01:01:34,573

Thank you, Michael, for this

opportunity and happy new Year.

: 1120

01:01:34,753 --> 01:01:39,013

This is just, just to begin to

everyone in: 2026

: 1121

01:01:39,193 --> 01:01:40,483

May you all flourish?

: 1122

01:01:40,753 --> 01:01:41,233

Yes.

: 1123

01:01:41,438 --> 01:01:41,658

Yes.

: 1124

01:01:41,893 --> 01:01:42,463

That's great.

: 1125

01:01:42,793 --> 01:01:43,153

Thanks.

: 1126

01:01:43,153 --> 01:01:46,093

Thanks again, Brian, and thank

you to viewers and listeners for

: 1127

01:01:46,093 --> 01:01:47,563

your interest and for your time.

: 1128

01:01:47,783 --> 01:01:52,793

if this episode resonated with you, please

do take a moment to reflect on, again, not

: 1129

01:01:52,793 --> 01:01:56,453

so much what you need to fix, but what,

what maybe what your mind and your brain

: 1130

01:01:56,753 --> 01:02:00,473

may have learned a long time ago and it's

still trying to protect you from, and how

: 1131

01:02:00,473 --> 01:02:04,763

you might wanna, as Brian says, go seek

to work with someone to go beneath that

: 1132

01:02:04,763 --> 01:02:09,633

and, and, and, and learn, take some of

what Brian's wisdom can offer in terms of

: 1133

01:02:09,633 --> 01:02:15,283

helping, helping you flourish and, and,

rward in, in this new year of: 2026

: 1134

01:02:15,283 --> 01:02:17,323

with, with improved health and wellness.

: 1135

01:02:17,323 --> 01:02:20,608

So again, thanks everyone for watching

and listening, and we'll see you next

: 1136

01:02:20,608 --> 01:02:22,543

time on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

: 1137

01:02:23,218 --> 01:02:27,058

Mike: Thank you so much for joining us

today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

: 1138

01:02:27,238 --> 01:02:30,988

I hope that you enjoyed that

stimulating conversation with

: 1139

01:02:30,988 --> 01:02:32,758

Brian DeRoche as much as I did.

: 1140

01:02:33,328 --> 01:02:36,628

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

: 1141

01:02:36,628 --> 01:02:38,398

and subscribe to the podcast.

: 1142

01:02:38,638 --> 01:02:42,478

It's the best way to make sure that you

never miss an episode, and it also helps

: 1143

01:02:42,478 --> 01:02:44,968

us to reach more curious minds like yours.

: 1144

01:02:45,628 --> 01:02:49,348

If you think today's episode might

resonate with a friend, a family member,

: 1145

01:02:49,348 --> 01:02:51,568

or a colleague, please share it with them.

: 1146

01:02:51,868 --> 01:02:55,108

Knowledge is better when it's shared

and you never know who might find

: 1147

01:02:55,108 --> 01:02:57,478

this information helpful or inspiring.

: 1148

01:02:58,618 --> 01:03:02,098

For more details about Brian's

work, please do check out the

: 1149

01:03:02,098 --> 01:03:03,658

links in the show notes below.

: 1150

01:03:03,958 --> 01:03:07,828

You'll find everything that you need to

dive deeper into this topic, to find out

: 1151

01:03:07,828 --> 01:03:12,208

more about his books and how to purchase

one or borrow one from the library,

: 1152

01:03:12,688 --> 01:03:16,768

join the conversation in the comment

section or reach out on social media.

: 1153

01:03:17,128 --> 01:03:19,408

If you have ideas for future episodes.

: 1154

01:03:19,438 --> 01:03:21,808

Please leave those ideas

in the comment section.

: 1155

01:03:22,138 --> 01:03:26,368

Your questions, ideas, and

feedback make this podcast better.

: 1156

01:03:27,043 --> 01:03:29,563

Finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

: 1157

01:03:29,803 --> 01:03:33,493

It's gonna be another exciting journey

into the cutting edge of neuroscience,

: 1158

01:03:33,763 --> 01:03:38,323

neurostimulation, interventional mental

health, general health and wellness.

: 1159

01:03:38,383 --> 01:03:39,853

So thanks again for listening.

: 1160

01:03:40,003 --> 01:03:45,163

Take care, stay curious, and I'll see you

next time on The Neurostimulation Podcast.