Episode 39

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Published on:

17th Jan 2026

From the Dojo to the Bedside: How Martial Arts is Revolutionizing Dementia Care with Ben Couch - Jan 17, 2026 - #39

From the Dojo to the Bedside: How Martial Arts is Revolutionizing Dementia Care with Ben Couch - Episode #39

Guest: Ben Couch, Founder of ElumenEd and Eastern Ergonomics

Host: Dr. Michael Passmore, Clinical Associate Professor, Department of Psychiatry, University of British Columbia

Episode Length: ~1 hour

Episode Summary

In this fascinating conversation, martial artist and healthcare educator Ben Couch shares how 40+ years of martial arts training is transforming dementia care and caregiver safety. Ben discusses his innovative Eastern Ergonomics program, which applies ancient martial arts principles—balance, efficiency, breath, and mindful presence—to patient transfers and caregiving. He also opens up about his personal journey after his mother's Alzheimer's diagnosis and how it deepened his understanding of care.

Key Topics Discussed

Ben's Background

  1. 40+ years in martial arts (black belts in 8 disciplines, 7th degree in karate)
  2. 20+ years as National Director of Training at Watermark Retirement Communities
  3. Founded ElumenEd to bring Eastern Ergonomics to healthcare facilities nationwide
  4. Personal experience with mother's Alzheimer's diagnosis in 2022

The Problem with Traditional Ergonomics Training

  1. Patient transfers have been the #1 cause of healthcare worker injuries for decades
  2. Traditional training focuses on "dots" without connecting the transitional movements
  3. Annual compliance training often fails to create meaningful change
  4. Injuries cost $40,000-$120,000 per nurse to replace

Martial Arts Principles Applied to Caregiving

Mental Preparation:

  1. Posture and breathing as foundation for presence and safety
  2. Taking a pause before each transfer to be fully present
  3. "New heart every day" mindset to avoid autopilot mode
  4. Connection between body posture and mental state

Physical Techniques:

  1. Moving from center of gravity rather than arm strength
  2. "Hands always push" principle (using triceps/lats instead of biceps/deltoids)
  3. Triangulation of balance—avoiding weak points in stance
  4. Softness, flow, and minimal effort from Tai Chi and Japanese Jujitsu
  5. Principle-based rather than position-based training

Communication and Dignity

  1. Shifting from doing something "to" someone → "for" someone → "with" someone
  2. The person receiving care is the teacher, guiding the caregiver
  3. Maintaining presence and listening, even with advanced dementia
  4. Treating every transfer as a mutual, collaborative experience

Personal Insights

  1. Ben's mother's musical awakening after moving to exceptional memory care
  2. The importance of not accepting that "life is over" after an Alzheimer's diagnosis
  3. How martial arts practice helped Ben manage depression
  4. The parallel between martial arts training and caregiving excellence

Vision for the Future

  1. Goal: Remove transfer injuries from the #1 spot for the first time ever
  2. Reduce turnover and burnout among caregivers
  3. Free up budget resources for meaningful resident programs
  4. Challenge healthcare assumptions about what's possible
  5. Bring more presence and continuous improvement to all aspects of care

Key Quotes

"Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face." — Mike Tyson (referenced by Ben about his mother's diagnosis)

"In the beginner's mind, there are endless possibilities. In the expert's mind, there are very few." — Shunryu Suzuki

"You're not ever gonna be good, but you're gonna be better." — Ben on continuous improvement

"The person who we are assisting...is the one who should be teaching us. They teach us their movement and then we respond to that."

"It's not over when you get this diagnosis...do we act that way?"

Resources Mentioned

  1. ElumenEd — Ben's company offering Eastern Ergonomics training
  2. Eastern Ergonomics — Ben's innovative caregiver training program
  3. Book: I Heard There Was a Secret Chord by Daniel Levitin (on music and brain health)

Who Should Listen

  1. Nurses, CNAs, and direct care staff
  2. Healthcare administrators and risk managers
  3. Dementia care professionals
  4. Physical therapists and occupational therapists
  5. Family caregivers
  6. Anyone interested in innovative approaches to healthcare and injury prevention

Connect with Ben Couch

https://easternergonomics.com/

https://www.youtube.com/@elumenEd

Get Ben's free eBook that covers some fundamentals of the Eastern Ergonomics program. You can also book a time to talk about the benefits of bringing Eastern Ergonomics to your facility.

Subscribe & Share

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the Neurostimulation Podcast and share it with colleagues in healthcare, caregiving, or anyone interested in innovative approaches to dementia care.

Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice or a substitute for professional medical guidance.

Transcript
Mike:

Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Michael Passmore, clinical associate

professor in the department of Psychiatry

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at the University of British Columbia.

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In Vancouver, Canada, the

Neurostimulation Podcast is all about

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exploring the fascinating world of

neuroscience, clinical neurostimulation,

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interventional mental health, ketamine

assisted psychotherapy, various

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approaches to helping to improve

wellness and various approaches.

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Various approaches to helping

to improve health and wellness.

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We look at the latest research

breakthroughs and we talk to people in the

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field that are pushing the boundaries of

what can be done to help improve people.

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We talk about the latest research

breakthroughs and how that

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research is being translated into

real world treatments that can

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improve health and wellbeing.

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We also talk about leaders in the

industry that are helping to develop these

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interesting technologies and approaches

to improve health and wellbeing.

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This podcast is separate from my clinical

and academic roles, and as part of my

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personal effort to bring neuroscience

education to the general public.

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Okay, so I would like to emphasize

that the information shared in

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this podcast is for educational

purposes only, and it's not intended

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as medical advice or a substitute

for professional medical guidance.

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Today I had a great

discussion with Ben Couch.

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Ben is a coach, a teacher,

an entrepreneur, and he has a

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fascinating story about bringing two

seemingly disparate worlds together.

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That is his experience and passion

in the martial arts with helping

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to provide the best care possible

for individuals who need extra help

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in care facilities, for instance.

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Clients, patients, residents suffering

from various forms of dementia like

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Alzheimer's disease or other types of

conditions that require them to live in

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facilities where they need the extra help

that caregivers are providing for them.

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And so I think you're gonna really

appreciate this conversation because

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Ben brings a real heart for care.

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And innovation to help to improve the

lives of not only the people that are

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being cared for, but also the caregivers

and the entire body of, not only he's

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helping not only improve the lives of

the people being cared for, but also the

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caregivers and the entire institutional.

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Not only the people being cared for,

but the caregivers and the entire

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institutional network, and he's just

got a really positive and innovative

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vision that I think will be really

interesting for you to hear about.

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So please stay tuned.

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Speaker: Welcome back to the

Neurostimulation podcast.

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Today I'm joined by someone who

brings together two worlds that

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rarely speak to each other,

martial arts and modern healthcare.

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Ben Couch is a martial artist, a

healthcare educator, and a dementia

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specialist who has spent more than

40 years studying how the body

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moves and how it gets injured.

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After directing national training

efforts for watermark retirement

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communities for over two decades.

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Ben recognized something that most

healthcare systems were missing.

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Traditional ergonomics training

wasn't protecting caregivers

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or patients nearly enough.

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Drawing on black belts in eight martial

arts disciplines can't believe that,

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including a seventh degree black

belt In karate, Ben developed Eastern

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Ergonomics, a program that applies

martial arts principles like balance,

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efficiency and structure to patient

transfers to enhanced dementia care

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today through his company, ElumenEd

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Hopefully I'm pronouncing that correctly.

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You are.

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ElumenEd and we'll get the spelling

and we'll put all the info on

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Ben's company in the show notes.

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Ben's training nurses, CNAs and

dementia professionals across North

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America helping to reduce injuries,

burnout and apprehension, fear at

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the bedside, while improving dignity

and safety for clients and patients.

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So I'm looking forward

to this conversation.

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It's gonna be a fascinating talk

about movement, caregiving, injury

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prevention, and bringing in what

ancient wisdom can still teach modern

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medicine and approaches to healthcare.

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Ben, welcome to the show.

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Really happy that you're here.

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Ben: Thank you so much.

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Really appreciate it, Mike.

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Mike: Super.

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Yeah.

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Well, maybe you can start by, introducing

yourself, telling us a bit about

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your background, just so that viewers

and listeners can get to know you.

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Ben: so like you said, I've, been doing

martial arts for over 40 years, and

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that was the, the best birthday present

I ever got when I was eight years old.

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I had been begging, and in those

days there was not, that was:

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There wasn't a place on every corner.

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And, my parents finally conceded and,

40 plus years later I'm still going.

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like you said, I've got a

really broad experience.

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after all those years, I've studied a

lot of different arts and I've been very

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lucky in my teachers, even in, even, even

at the, the, the ranks I've gotten, I've,

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I've worked with some really world-class

individuals who have studied the body in

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systems that are hundreds of years old.

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And one of the things that.

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I look at, is when, when we look

at ergonomics and body mechanics,

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this was literally life and death.

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this was something that they studied

with the intensity of knowing that if

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they were wrong, there was no forgiving.

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That in terms of their

own, their own lifespan.

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So that we, we see in the old arts a

really fascinating focus on that, a

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scientific approach to it that, we, we,

we might not expect from, just watching

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the movies about those times, there's a

real, a real need, a very pressing need,

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more so than in a lab or in a study.

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their, their study was their lives.

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So, I've, I've gotten to work as I've

progressed and gotten to meet more people.

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I've gotten to work in older and older

systems that have studied the body in ways

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that just aren't really seen very often.

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and just like a, a

professional athlete, in.

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Power lifting or running or basketball.

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The, the study of the movement on

a very fine level is just something

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that, for whatever reason, I'm

a very technical martial artist.

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I've been interested in how the body

works and how the body moves and how

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the mind moves the body, and how our

inborn instincts, are, are often not

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the, the best movements that we can make.

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the things that we go to

reflexively out of instinct, much

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like fight, flight, or freeze.

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It protects the species, but it

doesn't protect necessarily you,

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it's, it's, it's right enough

times that the species survives.

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But the individual, through a very

dedicated study of what actually is

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the most efficient way to do things,

gets a, gets a much more targeted

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approach to their own safety.

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so.

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Oddly enough, in my own

background, I actually, in

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2001 was teaching martial arts.

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And one of my students was the

person who became the CEO of

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Watermark retirement communities.

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And they had a, they had kind

of a mantra of find the right

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person and then create the job.

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so the, the person I was working with,

David Barnes, he was looking for a

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trainer and they had just finished a

study showing how much turnover they

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had, and they decided, we, we need

a, we need a solid training program.

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I was finishing up my

master's degree in literature.

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He knew I was a writer and

he'd seen me teach and he

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said, why don't you interview?

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And, that went from 2001 until, I became

a, the, the National Director of training.

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And ultimately I stayed there

until:

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broke off to form Illumined.

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And, just had a, had

an amazing experience.

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And I think I, because I was not

an industry professional, The,

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the, the experience that I had was

I sat down and, David brought in

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the national directors one by one

and said, teach him the business.

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here's the director of nursing, okay.

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Tell him how to teach

everybody, including yourself.

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So I got to learn every position in

the company from the national directors

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over the course of about a year.

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and it was a really amazing experience.

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I feel really just so, so lucky to have

had that experience with that company.

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And, then in 2022, my own mother was

diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease

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and, of, of course a crushing blow.

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And it was a moment where I realized

I knew the technical aspects of it

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and I knew how to deal with it as

a professional, but personally, it

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was a completely new experience.

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it was, know all the, I know all

the moves, it's, it's like martial

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arts, you know, all the moves.

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And then, Mike Tyson has the

famous quote, everybody has a plan

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until you get punched in the face.

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Mm-hmm.

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And that was my punch in the face, and,

and I realized there was a lot to learn

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on a much more emotional, psychological,

level that, and I really, as much as I

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knew, I really botched it a few times,

and it was a hard learning process.

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So that's a, that's, that's a little

bit of my background in a nutshell.

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Speaker: Yeah, thanks for, thanks

for explaining all of that.

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I'm sorry to hear about your mom.

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I mean, these personal experiences

are devastating, as you say, but

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on the other hand, hopefully we

can take personal challenges and,

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and bring that into improving, the

lives of others in, in some way.

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there's some solace there, hopefully.

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But, yeah, so I mean, it's fascinating

that, connection between the, the ancient

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wisdom of movement and, and the specific

focus in on, the technicalities of, of

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purposeful movement that martial arts

teaches us and how we can, again, bring

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that ancient wisdom into helping, with,

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Providing care and for, for

reducing injuries and caregivers

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and for making the care, better for

those who are receiving the care.

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So I was just curious, what, what would

you say would be some of the important

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points that you found after, the 20 years

of your experience there, as you were

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describing in terms of maybe the gaps

that standard ergonomics programs or, or

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the, the, the, the traditional approach to

caregiving, was lacking in that maybe the

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martial arts wisdom was able to sort of

supplement or improve along those lines?

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Ben: I think the first aspect of

it to, to, to kind of do a deep

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dive for me is the mental aspect

of it at the corporate level.

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Mm-hmm.

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it's been the number one cause of injury,

specifically transferring patients.

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So helping 'em stand up or

sit down or move from, a.

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Shared a toilet or, helping people

move who have a hard time moving,

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been the number one cause of injury

for healthcare workers since,

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well before I was in the industry.

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And the, the thing is we've added gadgets.

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we've added machinations, there's

hoyer lifts and all these things

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that, they're, they're great.

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I'm not knocking 'em.

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But, in reality, when you talk to a, a,

an actual caregiver instead of the, the

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risk manager who bought it, you talk to

them and you say, well, yeah, but it's

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on the other floor and I've gotta get

through all these residents in an hour.

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or so and so called in sick today.

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Or the person who was trained on it,

they're, they're not here anymore.

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and so, despite all that, I think we,

we've relied on that in, in a, in a

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emerging tech world to, to save us.

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And the reality is.

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It's, a lot of it is not

happening in some places.

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It is probably as we get more,

toward the skilled nursing

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and the hospital environments.

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But, it, it's still number one.

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And you ask yourself, have,

have we just accepted this?

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have we just accepted

that that's the way it is?

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Because what I saw is we'd, we'd have

our annual required in services, and

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this is sort of across the board.

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This is something I wanna just

eradicate across the board.

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Everyone comes in because we all

just accept that this is what it is.

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For an hour a month, you are

gonna be bored sitting in a room,

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getting nothing out of it except

a check mark from the state.

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And, I, I think.

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What I saw was, there's just this

acceptance of it in the industry

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that, we're gonna do this training.

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And, that's a big part

of my background to me.

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If you don't change something,

then you didn't train.

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Mm-hmm.

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So how many hours and dollars are we

throwing away every year in terms of that?

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I mean, that's just, that's just a focus

mindset on, you go to, you go to martial

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arts class, you do the same thing for 15

years, and you're not progressing well.

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Why?

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isn't the teacher, is

it your own attitude?

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Is it, you're not often enough.

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And a, a lot of the time

it's our own effort.

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And I think that's the, the, the

trend across a lot of, I'm not

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knocking anyone, it's just what

we fall into kind of naturally.

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So that's a, that's a, that's, that's

my kind of rant on the subject.

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I think.

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The first thing is, as a martial

arts teacher and as a, as a

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trainer, I bring the same idea.

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We have to change something.

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If we're gonna sit down and spend

that time and money, then something

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has to be different at the end.

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And we're in this space where

nothing is different at the end.

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physically, the actual physics

of it, I think we have,

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and, and I'm drawing with a broad

brush here, but I think a lot of

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movement in the West is really

geared toward what I call playing,

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connect the dots without any lines.

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we talk about would, I mean, you can

look up the National Institutes of Health

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guidelines for training, but your hands

on the gate belt bring the person to you.

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Well, how, we, we talk about those dots,

but we don't talk about how we connect

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them with those transitional movements.

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Speaker: You

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Ben: know, how do I actually do that?

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Which muscles do I activate?

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and it's just something that.

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We don't dig into the actual body.

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We have these, very blanket

standard and, again, you're doing

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a national training program.

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It has to be pretty standardized.

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But, we don't really go beyond,

keep it close to your center or

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lift with your legs, use the gate.

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Well, when I bring the person

to me, how do I do that?

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Ben: That's a really simple example.

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When, when someone's in a chair

and I'm lifting them to a standing

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position, our bodies want to

use our biceps and our deltoids.

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that goes back to that instinctual

behavior works for the species.

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But in individual practice,

those are really weak muscles.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Ben: And if we look at that carefully,

we can see, well, why are we

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getting all the shoulder injuries?

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Why are we getting all

the lower back injuries?

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It's all tied to that.

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That, that's one of the

main factors for that.

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So if we look at it and we say, martial

arts principle hands always push.

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Well, even when they come back

to you, they still push and our

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brains go, well, how can that be?

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Well, it's the same movement that,

if you're doing in the weight

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room, you're doing a a bicep curl.

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You can, you can go so far.

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If you're doing a bench press,

you can go a lot farther.

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Okay.

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'cause we're activating different muscles.

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So if I'm doing a rowing motion where

I'm pushing back with my elbows,

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instead of trying to curl them to me,

suddenly I've activated my triceps,

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my laps, my trapezius muscles.

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Th those are those things that

in that transition moment, people

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never get hurt when they put

their hands on the gate belt.

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They don't get hurt when the

person's up to them, they

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get hurt when they're moving.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Ben: That's one of the things martial

arts really excels at, because,

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yeah, the punchline is important,

but how the heck do I get there?

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When I've got someone who really

doesn't want me to, I've, I've really

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gotta hone my actual transition

movements to make things work.

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one teacher I worked with said, I

can, I can teach you all the throws,

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the locks in a year, teach you

how to get those to work, teaching

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you how to get to that end point.

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that transition movement will

take me 10 years to teach you.

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and that's what I think

we've lost a lot in the west.

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Speaker: Hmm.

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Oh yeah, that's, it's super interesting.

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It makes me think about, a

coaching specialist, Nick

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Winkleman, I think is the name.

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And, he uses, he, he kind of has

this, this idea about using a lot of

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visualization around, coaching athletes

to imagine that they're, for example, to,

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to, if someone's getting ready to leap,

just imagine that they're actually a, a

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spring and just picturing themselves as

a spring jumping or for runners, like the

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first few steps, you're, you're, you're,

I don't know, shooting out of a cannon and

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then for the next few steps of the sprint.

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And then you're, imagine that

you're running up a steep hill.

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So just getting sort of a real sense

of a visualization into, I wonder if

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that could be part of the, the answer

in terms of the, the lines that are

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between the dots that you're helping

to coach these caregivers into.

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getting into the habit of, of

performing, movements in a safer way.

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Ben: I, I, I think so.

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I think the mindset is really

critical when I start with caregivers.

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again, you go to every, every

training ever, and it's, it starts

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with hands on the gate belt.

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I, I start, okay, you're about

to walk in the room and how is

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your mind, how is your posture?

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if your posture is lousy, you're

already starting with a collapsing

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building, before you ever do

anything, how is your posture?

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And that's, again, something

that I just don't see addressed.

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And I think, certainly I've,

I've gotten, yelled at for years.

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get your chin up, get your,

get your back straight.

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Because as soon as those are

compromised, you are compromised.

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Your, your whole balance

system is, is done.

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So I think that visualization

at the beginning is important.

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and.

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Things like commitment

and to, to the technique.

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in, in the sword world, they will say,

as soon as the, as soon as the sword

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leaves the scabbard, or the sa in

Japanese, the, the fight is complete.

315

:

because from that point on, your,

your mind is on the other side of it.

316

:

you have just committed fully, and I, I,

not to get too esoteric with it, but just

317

:

having the right mindset, going in the

right posture, the right idea that, that,

318

:

and this is something that is desperately

lacking, I think, in healthcare.

319

:

Take a second.

320

:

Mm-hmm.

321

:

be aware of what you're about to do.

322

:

Don't let it be the same, the same.

323

:

I've done this 50 times today because

the 51st is where you get injured.

324

:

it's like, you're most likely to have

an accident close to home where you're,

325

:

where you're unaware, you're used to it.

326

:

And.

327

:

I, I think that mental awareness that

comes from the idea that, before I

328

:

walk in the room, I am transferring the

person, because it has to start here.

329

:

So, yeah.

330

:

Absolutely.

331

:

Speaker: Yeah.

332

:

That's interesting.

333

:

What are some, common strategies

then in terms of just, preparing

334

:

caregivers, helping them to get

into the right, mindset, I suppose?

335

:

Is there a, yeah, can, can you give us

some examples or just walk us through some

336

:

of the principles that you, tend to teach

when you're coaching, that type of thing?

337

:

Ben: Absolutely.

338

:

so posture is actually the first thing.

339

:

so one of the pieces that I've, I've

put together just kind of in my own

340

:

head, over the years because, just,

personally I've struggled a lot.

341

:

I've had a lot of depression

in my life, pretty serious.

342

:

And one of the things I started to

notice over the years is it never.

343

:

Happened when I was at the dojo.

344

:

It never happened.

345

:

After I left, I was always happy.

346

:

And, it started to dawn on me that we

always try to fix our minds, and one of

347

:

the ways to do that is to fix our bodies.

348

:

it goes both ways.

349

:

Mm-hmm.

350

:

So I tell people, it's not just for

your physical body, you, you fix your

351

:

posture and your brain gets right, too.

352

:

That's one of the first things

that you can do when you go in.

353

:

that little pause, take a pause, look

at your posture, how are you doing?

354

:

go into it with that attitude.

355

:

I tell people, it's, it's real hard to be

in a terrible mood or to lack confidence

356

:

when you just fix your posture, because

that sends your brain a different signal.

357

:

kinda like having a smile

on when you don't feel good.

358

:

You're, you're trying to hot wire

your brain into, following your body.

359

:

Mm-hmm.

360

:

The next thing I I look at

in preparation is breathing.

361

:

how are we, how are we setting up our

body with the correct breathing, to

362

:

activate the core muscles to, and again,

if we're breathing right, that feeds

363

:

into our posture, it feeds into our

attitude and our bodies, and carries

364

:

through into the actual transfer.

365

:

Again, just like a, just like

a weightlifter or any athlete

366

:

has to have their breathing

right to perform at their peak.

367

:

So those are, those are two of the

pieces that I look at front and center.

368

:

I can, the, the problem to me with

the mental concept and telling people,

369

:

okay, focus on this, and it, it's

easy to logically comprehend things.

370

:

it's easy to, I, I can understand

a lot of things I can't do, I'm,

371

:

maybe I can understand how Carl

Lewis is so fast on the sprints.

372

:

I can't do that.

373

:

but I can think about it a lot.

374

:

however, if I want to go out and sprint, I

need to again, fix my body, fix my brain.

375

:

And one of the best ways to do that

is actually getting into the body.

376

:

I can't, I can't be thinking

about what somebody else is doing.

377

:

I can't be thinking about

balancing my checkbook.

378

:

I, I have to be very present in my body.

379

:

So to me, the posture and the breathing,

you go through meditative traditions.

380

:

That's one of the first things.

381

:

You address and virtually any

meditation in the world, your

382

:

posture and your breathing.

383

:

And that's, I've also, practiced

in for, over 20 years now.

384

:

And that's, in some schools,

that's virtually all of it.

385

:

Fix your posture, fix your

breathing, and sit there.

386

:

and there's something that comes from

that, that to me is a little bit,

387

:

I, I don't mean like metaphysically

necessarily, but it's, it's deeper than

388

:

something that you can think about.

389

:

And to me, just, I don't, when I,

when I train, I don't have people

390

:

do meditation or anything like that,

but just fixing the posture and the

391

:

breathing to me is the perfect intro.

392

:

And then.

393

:

Actually getting them to just

stand still for a minute.

394

:

I mean, it's a struggle for me.

395

:

I, I, I'm always going, so every day

when I sit down and meditate, the

396

:

first little bit is like dragging

myself to the cushion in my own head.

397

:

I'm sitting there, but I'm not there.

398

:

so getting people to just stop and pause,

fix that posture, fix that breathing,

399

:

and mentally say, just say to yourself,

I'm about to do a transfer instead of

400

:

just going in, thinking about what you're

cooking your kids for dinner tonight.

401

:

And, just being there is, to

me, and posture and breath is

402

:

the way to get there, I think.

403

:

Speaker: Yeah, that's,

it's so fascinating.

404

:

I have a, a meditation practice as well.

405

:

I've been doing the ANA for many years

and the zen kind of, approach also.

406

:

And it's, it makes me think of the idea

of, of encouraging people to have a

407

:

simple mantra in that moment of the, the

preparation only takes, a few seconds.

408

:

And the the other thing it makes me think,

'cause I I, work, do a lot of, late life

409

:

mental health and I, I go to, seniors

care facilities multiple times, weekly.

410

:

And it makes me also think that

when a caregiver takes that few

411

:

seconds to have the mindset give

themselves a bit of a mantra and.

412

:

Attend to their, to their presence and,

and the breath and the posture that

413

:

it, there's probably an effect on the

client, the patient as well, right?

414

:

I mean, there's this sort of, oh,

415

:

Ben: yes.

416

:

Speaker: Body language, that there's

a lot of stuff that gets communicated

417

:

non-verbally and unconsciously

that probably factors into the

418

:

difficulties that may arise as a

result of that person with dementia.

419

:

perhaps being less afraid or feeling

as though they're being less rushed

420

:

or any of those kinds of things.

421

:

Ben: Yes, absolutely.

422

:

That's one of the big fears, that

people express when they move

423

:

in to a retirement community.

424

:

As skilled nurse, will I be dropped?

425

:

so it's not just the caregivers

who are worrying about that.

426

:

That's, the people and, and that,

that's another thing I like to emphasize

427

:

is that, this is not lifting a box.

428

:

It's, it's a completely different

thing and it requires your attention.

429

:

Not just for your own physical

presence, but for the person that

430

:

you're doing this for, they need to

know that you are focused on them.

431

:

And it, it, it definitely

changes the, the tenor of things.

432

:

when, when we stop treating it like I'm

making widgets and we start treating

433

:

it like, I'm intervening to improve

the quality of a human being's life.

434

:

Mm-hmm.

435

:

And it, it's, I.

436

:

It, it's an unfortunate truth about

humans that we get used to something

437

:

and then we stop paying attention to it.

438

:

And, if, if we want, I, I,

I think most people go into

439

:

healthcare with great intentions.

440

:

I think they like to help people.

441

:

and when we go into it with that

presence, then that's a really

442

:

powerful thing that the residents,

I, I believe, truly respond to.

443

:

but maintaining that, I think sometimes

the newest people, who are, who are.

444

:

Forced to pay the most attention if they

wanna be successful, are in some ways the

445

:

best, not the best caregivers, but the

best at creating that bond with people.

446

:

there's a, a quote I won't get quite

right, but, it's from Shun Ru Suzuki,

447

:

who was a Zen teacher who says, in

the beginner's mind, there are endless

448

:

possibilities in the expert's mind.

449

:

There are very few.

450

:

Speaker: Hmm.

451

:

Ben: because the expert knows the

answers and that, that limits us.

452

:

And I think, when, when you have a

caregiver going in with that fresh

453

:

attitude, the, the question is how can

we be, one of the, the mottos of one

454

:

of the really old schools that I've

worked with is New Heart every day.

455

:

Mm-hmm.

456

:

How do we create a new heart

every day for what we do?

457

:

And certainly none of us has ever.

458

:

A hundred percent successful at that.

459

:

But it's something I try to keep out

in front of myself, and, to whatever

460

:

extent I can pass on to other people.

461

:

Speaker: Fantastic.

462

:

Yeah, I mean that by itself is, would

be an ideal mantra, even just to,

463

:

going into a transfer and, or just

anything that a caregiver is doing

464

:

from hour to hour and day to day.

465

:

Yeah, it's, that's, that's fantastic.

466

:

because I think part of it is that,

and it strikes me that, there's a

467

:

disruptive, in a way, in a positive

way, a disruptive, component.

468

:

It strikes me that bringing, bringing

two seemingly disparate worlds

469

:

together, that being martial arts and,

caregiving for folks in a retirement

470

:

home, it's not the sort of thing

that you think typically would go

471

:

hand in hand, but it certainly does.

472

:

No pun intended.

473

:

but, so maybe you know that, I'm just

curious in your experience, if, if the,

474

:

the, the extent to which that those

two worlds are not typically associated

475

:

together in people's minds when they,

when they see, oh yeah, these do really

476

:

go together well, and that there's a,

a disruptive kind of approach that kind

477

:

of shakes people out of their usual

habits and, and routines as you're

478

:

saying, which has become, as, as in

most bureaucracies, you get this kind

479

:

of capture and, and, and, and sort of

rigidity that's difficult to, to shake

480

:

to, to shake apart and to improve on.

481

:

yeah.

482

:

Have you found that, that bringing those

martial arts ideas is something that

483

:

catches people's attention and helps to

disrupt their unhealthy habits and, and

484

:

all of that kind of, the legacy kind

of bureaucracy that gets in the way?

485

:

Ben: That's, yeah, that's a

really interesting question.

486

:

It's been, I, so when I had my

lightning bolt moment, and said.

487

:

Whoa, I've, I've got something

that other people aren't doing.

488

:

I've got something that really can help.

489

:

I've, I asked myself is, are

people gonna hear this and

490

:

think, this is, this is wacko.

491

:

this is, what we're doing, martial arts

to train, and I've been very pleasantly

492

:

surprised that people are fascinated.

493

:

I've, I've mentioned this to, I mean,

I've been networking for, six or

494

:

eight months on this now, and people

have been really genuinely excited.

495

:

'cause I think in, in at least, and, and.

496

:

One of the things I've found is, and

not surprisingly, smaller companies

497

:

are more willing to take the jump,

more willing to be innovative.

498

:

And I mean, it doesn't hurt

that it's easier to get in and,

499

:

just meet very easily with a

local executive director or CEO.

500

:

but even the larger groups that

I've talked with, have, they've,

501

:

one of, one of the issues I'm

running into is this is totally new.

502

:

I, I thought there must be other

people doing something like this.

503

:

And the closest I've found is

someone in Japan who's doing

504

:

a, a slightly similar thing.

505

:

so, you go to a larger place and,

they, they sense it, they sense

506

:

there's something here, but, whereas

the 10 years of research, and so

507

:

that's been something that, I found.

508

:

The, the companies that are smaller

that are looking to disrupt,

509

:

the industry themselves mm-hmm.

510

:

Are really intrigued by this.

511

:

I think the larger, more

national companies will be, as

512

:

the, as, as the buzz raises.

513

:

But I've, I've been very interested to see

that, even, even the folks who I've talked

514

:

to who are like national risk managers

have said, let's keep talking about this.

515

:

So I think there is that sense of

shakeup when someone comes with

516

:

something truly different and says,

it doesn't have to be like this.

517

:

not like anyone has consciously said,

well, this is just the way it is.

518

:

But I think bringing that to the table

lets them see that's what they did.

519

:

It lets them see like, wait, there's

something, there's something else there.

520

:

There's something that could maybe

disrupt, and this is a trend that

521

:

everyone would like to disrupt.

522

:

'cause these injuries

are remarkably expensive.

523

:

replace a nurse.

524

:

The, the stats I've found are,

between 40 and $120,000 to replace a

525

:

nurse from, from one single injury.

526

:

And it's, just kind of a budget

line item we've come to expect.

527

:

And for someone to say we, we

don't necessarily have to do that.

528

:

There is, there are other ways of

looking at this problem has been of,

529

:

something that's been really exciting

to me to see people interested in.

530

:

so yeah, it's, it's been a, it's been a

fascinating set of conversations I've had.

531

:

and I, I think the, the potential is.

532

:

Intriguing to a lot of people who just

thought there was no other way to do it.

533

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

534

:

Yeah.

535

:

Yeah, for sure.

536

:

Innovation is the word that

I was kind of struggling for.

537

:

So I think it's, it's,

it's definitely innovative.

538

:

It makes me wonder if also that

there would be many people on the

539

:

academic side, nursing, academics,

and even healthcare administration,

540

:

academics, that would be interested

in collaborating and studying the

541

:

positive effects of this kind of thing.

542

:

Ben: Yeah.

543

:

that's, at the moment, that's

something I haven't pursued yet.

544

:

It's, it's on my to-do list.

545

:

I think, of the, of the physical

therapist I've talked to, there's

546

:

been a lot of interest there.

547

:

I'm trying to get some collaborations

going with them to see, their

548

:

side of the puzzle and how

they conceive these movements.

549

:

And, kind of a hopeful, I'm, I'm hopeful

that we can get some, some back and

550

:

forth education of each other going on.

551

:

but one of the things that I've

really found there is that.

552

:

A lot of the fundamental concepts.

553

:

I, I think we, I, I think honestly, power

lifters are maybe the closest because they

554

:

have to, again, it's, they are lifting

and it's very dangerous, so they have to

555

:

be so attuned to how their bodies work.

556

:

So a lot of the breathing, a lot of the

posture, those things are present there.

557

:

And so I'm, I'm fascinated to

get in with some folks who, who

558

:

are doing other disciplines.

559

:

I've, I've got a, a very, a very

deep bench on my martial arts,

560

:

of, of people who I work with.

561

:

But, stepping outside that, that room

has been really interesting so far.

562

:

Speaker: Yeah.

563

:

Yeah.

564

:

That's, that's fantastic.

565

:

I'm just curious then, in terms of.

566

:

The martial arts background, are there

certain, I mean, you've already mentioned

567

:

certain principles, but like as far

as something specific, like say for

568

:

patient transfers, are there, are there

specific disciplines or principles that,

569

:

aside from just the, the introductory

mindset with the posture and the breath?

570

:

Mm-hmm.

571

:

Can you just explain a little

bit about some, maybe some key

572

:

principles that translate most

directly to safer patient transfers?

573

:

Ben: Certainly.

574

:

a lot of, a lot of the most,

important movement for me has

575

:

been out of Japanese jiujitsu.

576

:

which is, most people think

Brazilian juujitsu now, which is

577

:

mostly a ground-based system, I

think it's reasonably fair to say.

578

:

but mostly Japanese jiujitsu is

a standing, a standing juujitsu

579

:

typically, you didn't wanna

be with, with swords in play.

580

:

You didn't wanna be rolling

around on the ground with someone.

581

:

So, That, that movement's

been very influential to me.

582

:

And a big part of that is moving

from the center of gravity.

583

:

So when I do transfers, I like, I talk

about, that's a, that's a principle.

584

:

We're, we're pushing with our

hands all the time, but the more

585

:

I move with my center of gravity,

the less I have to do that.

586

:

So one of the pieces I really like

to talk about is kind of, it is

587

:

difficult to explain without touching

people, but adhering to someone.

588

:

So it's, it's like I'm stuck

to them and I just get in my

589

:

position and I move my center.

590

:

So I'm not yanking, I'm not, twisting

or do, I'm moving my center of gravity

591

:

and I'm always keeping them in my front.

592

:

So you see people pivot and

they twist their waists?

593

:

Well, when, when I do a pivot, I'm always,

shuffling with them and keeping my center

594

:

in line with them, things like that.

595

:

It doesn't let a 100 pound

nurse lift a a 350 pound person.

596

:

there's, I, I don't wanna give people

the impression that they shouldn't

597

:

be careful or that they're, that

precautions need to be taken no matter

598

:

what, but those things allow you to

work at your body's maximum efficiency.

599

:

so moving with the center of gravity,

it's, maybe the most fundamental

600

:

concept of any martial art.

601

:

and then

602

:

pieces about balance are,

are really important as well.

603

:

So, the other.

604

:

And, and again, we, we studied this a lot

in jujitsu where, where is our weak spot?

605

:

Where's our weak spot imbalance?

606

:

Well, we've always got an equilateral

triangle in front of us and behind us.

607

:

And the third point in that triangle

out in front of us and behind

608

:

us is always our weakest point.

609

:

and we call that

triangulating the balance.

610

:

So when you see caregivers square

up, put their feet side by side

611

:

and bend over, you're going into

your weakest point of balance.

612

:

So when you pick someone up, you

are more likely to lose your balance

613

:

forward, or if they lose their balance

coming toward you to fall backwards.

614

:

And in both cases, typically

both of you go down.

615

:

if we shift our stance, we never get

rid of our triangulation point unless

616

:

we're using an assistive device, but.

617

:

If we just shift our stance to

the side, we take that balance

618

:

point out of the equation.

619

:

so now, if I'm, if I'm bladed in my

stance with one foot forward and one

620

:

back, I'm bringing into my structure,

rather than bringing into a place where

621

:

there's no structure, pieces like that

in, in the jiujitsu world, that's key.

622

:

'cause if you lose track of that,

you lose, in the, in the world

623

:

of caregiving and transfers.

624

:

If you lose track of that

again, someone gets injured.

625

:

So those are some key principles

that I like to emphasize.

626

:

And it's, it, it's, fixing your

feet is easy moving with the center.

627

:

I, I elements like that, I feel very

lucky that I've got about 25 years

628

:

teaching experience as well because.

629

:

When I started doing this, I already

had a lot of ways to express what I was

630

:

talking about because I've been showing

students how to do that for a long time.

631

:

So bringing it down into simpler

terms for, for someone who's not

632

:

a martial artist, has not been,

thankfully, too difficult for me.

633

:

I imagine myself trying to do this 15

years ago, and it would've been so much

634

:

harder just because my students have

taught me so much about the process.

635

:

so that's tho those are

some, those are some points.

636

:

I, I, it's, it's easy enough to talk

about, without, without touching people.

637

:

But that's another thing that

is really important is feel.

638

:

I, I don't teach this class.

639

:

I, I will do follow up and coaching

online, but if you want me to teach

640

:

this class, I have to be there

in person because we have to feel

641

:

what the other person's doing.

642

:

it's not, it's not something you can

learn like you and I are right now.

643

:

Mm-hmm.

644

:

Speaker: I can imagine for sure.

645

:

We'll have to, I'll have to talk to

some of the administrators and nursing

646

:

leaders in some of the retirement

homes that I go provide care at

647

:

and see if they'd be interested.

648

:

I'm sure they'd be fascinated

by the, by the approach.

649

:

And I'll try and encourage them to get

in touch with you and see if we bring,

650

:

bring some of these techniques up

into our facilities in Vancouver here.

651

:

Ben: I'd love to talk to 'em.

652

:

That'd be wonderful.

653

:

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

654

:

It's also interesting to me, I

mean, there's such a broad range

655

:

of different types of martial arts

obviously, but in particular, I was

656

:

noticing that in your work you're

referencing Tai Chi principles, like

657

:

softness, flow, and minimal effort.

658

:

So I'm curious how those particular ideas

show up practically in your training.

659

:

Ben: Yes.

660

:

so

661

:

first off, I'll just kind of go in order.

662

:

So softness, When we think about if

I, if I took, my, my coffee mug here

663

:

and dropped it on the ground, it would

shatter because it's very brittle.

664

:

that's when, when we hence our muscles and

we firm up and we take the slack out of

665

:

them, that's, that's what I try to do to

people who I wanna throw on the ground.

666

:

I try to make them tense up and try

to take the slack out because that

667

:

gives me a handle to work with.

668

:

They're brittle now.

669

:

so, a little gruesome, but something

that's brittle I can break.

670

:

if you take a piece of rope and drop it

on the ground, no problem because it's

671

:

flexible and it just, blah, no problem.

672

:

It's, again, a, a key principle

of jiujitsu is that you're using

673

:

the person's energy against them.

674

:

And if, if they're a, if they're a glass,

there's a lot of energy to go with.

675

:

If they're a rope, there's

no attack anymore, so.

676

:

For, for someone who's trying to

execute a technique, you wanna

677

:

be very flexible, very soft.

678

:

And that, again, that goes

back to moving from the center.

679

:

If I'm not, deadlifting someone, if I'm

not curling someone, then that allows

680

:

me to stay soft and loose and pliable.

681

:

It allows me to adjust.

682

:

And one thing that we don't

like to do in martial arts is

683

:

to totally commit to something.

684

:

Because if it goes wrong, then the

other person has the upper hand.

685

:

So, as we go in with softness,

we can adjust, we can move

686

:

and goes back to the flow.

687

:

Now, so let's say I start to

bring someone up and their knee

688

:

goes out and they start to shift.

689

:

Well, now I can flow and adjust.

690

:

If I'm so committed to the path

of movement that I've described or

691

:

that I have set in my own mind and

I'm rigid, then when they go wrong.

692

:

I'm already tense.

693

:

I, there goes my back.

694

:

If I'm flexible and I have that flow, I

can shift my center of gravity instead

695

:

of tightening my muscles and causing that

tension that causes pulls, and sprains.

696

:

When I'm soft, I can adjust

and I don't have to panic.

697

:

there's that moment where you feel

everything go wrong and you can tell, it's

698

:

like you're, you're about to, you, you

just realize that you're about to have a

699

:

car accident and there's no stopping it.

700

:

That, that moment where it all goes wrong.

701

:

If you're flexible and your mind

is present, then you can adjust and

702

:

hopefully protect the person and yourself.

703

:

especially if you have structured up

beforehand in a way that's safest.

704

:

So, again, from the, from the mental to

the physical, those aspects really help.

705

:

And then, the, from the, from

the physical perspective.

706

:

If your body is structured correctly,

you can be soft and flowing.

707

:

there's a lot of powerful movement

in that, more so than when you're

708

:

tense, you can transfer energy more

effectively, when you're soft than

709

:

when you're tense, whether it's coming

to you or allowing the person to

710

:

sit back down, it's more controlled.

711

:

and that's, when we try to control

with muscle, then if the person's

712

:

too big, too heavy, too anything, or,

sometimes people resist in their care.

713

:

they've, they've pushed away.

714

:

They don't, they don't want

you to pick them up, okay?

715

:

Then we'll set back down.

716

:

But if that happens, and I'm so committed

to where I'm going and they push and

717

:

I wrench and and I'm rigid, and that,

that's where the injuries happen.

718

:

So I think a.

719

:

I think those concepts and, and

I've, I'm not, and my, my karate

720

:

teacher was also a Tai Chi teacher,

so I picked up pieces of that.

721

:

but I, I'm much more studied in

the Japanese juujitsu, which relies

722

:

on a lot of the similar concepts.

723

:

So, I, I think those two arts have

really influenced a lot of how I think

724

:

about moving people, which is, again,

going back to like how our lizard

725

:

brain, our lizard brain sort of evolved.

726

:

we, we have the, The Hulk smash mentality.

727

:

and if it's not working, I'm

just gonna pull harder, push

728

:

harder, smash through it.

729

:

Where, when, when we're looking

at, and again for the species

730

:

that may be what works, but for us

individually, that's how we get hurt.

731

:

So if we can retrain those to be more

effective, that's what, that that's what

732

:

would separate the, the foot soldiers

from the, the elites, the foot soldiers,

733

:

hand them a sword and good luck.

734

:

where the elites would study and

practice for years and years and

735

:

years and, they would, they would

kind of master their minds than their

736

:

bodies and stand a better chance,

because their mechanics were correct.

737

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

738

:

Yeah.

739

:

Yeah, for sure.

740

:

I'm curious, what kind of

feedback are you getting from.

741

:

Caregivers facilities that you've been

working with in terms of follow up and,

742

:

and how have things been going in terms

of the, how the program is received?

743

:

How has that been going for you?

744

:

Ben: It's been, again, I, you, you

put something out there and you hope,

745

:

and it has been very well received.

746

:

I've been

747

:

really unexpected, feedback on it that

has just been overwhelmingly positive.

748

:

I've worked with caregivers and, you,

you go in and say, with anybody, I've,

749

:

I'm doing stuff that a lot of my martial

artists has taken me 10 years to get 'em

750

:

there, but that's with someone trying

to punch 'em while they're doing it.

751

:

this is, and, and providing

resistance and all these things.

752

:

but when you're helping someone

who's compliant, I've been.

753

:

Really pleased to see that I've been

able to teach these principles in a

754

:

day, and then to come back and have

people say, that really worked for me.

755

:

That was a lot easier.

756

:

I tried it with this person.

757

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

758

:

Ben: has been really gratifying.

759

:

And one of the other things that I stress

with them as a teaching tool, to, to try

760

:

to get over some of the complexity is I

don't try to teach for every position.

761

:

I, I I say it's principle based.

762

:

It's not position based.

763

:

So, virtually all of my training

is from a seated to standing

764

:

and standing to seated position.

765

:

That's what we do because it

covers all of the principles.

766

:

And at the end of the day, I'll say,

well, throw me some curve balls.

767

:

What, what's a, what's

something you run into?

768

:

And I've had people, toss out

some things that I say, well,

769

:

I haven't run into that one.

770

:

Let's, let's look at it.

771

:

So we'll get in, get in position and I'll

say, okay, what principles can we use?

772

:

Okay, well, the person's lying down.

773

:

And what I do is, I've, I try to,

get one hand and I'll, I'll take

774

:

'em by the shoulder and pick 'em up.

775

:

And I say, okay, can we reposition

that so you can get around

776

:

the body and push them up?

777

:

Oh, yeah.

778

:

And, and to start to start

thinking in those terms.

779

:

So getting people into that, that mode

where they're, again, it's the pause.

780

:

I go in and, oh, geez, I

haven't seen this before.

781

:

better just yank, no, take the pause.

782

:

Okay.

783

:

How do I get my balance

right in this position?

784

:

How do I and caregivers have

responded really well to that.

785

:

And the, the people who I've trained,

like I've, I've trained several,

786

:

like owners of home health agencies

for instance, have just picked that

787

:

up really quickly and said like,

this is, this is pretty amazing.

788

:

Like, I never knew I could

move people like this.

789

:

So it's been very exciting to see

you, you see that moment where

790

:

the eyes light up and they go, oh.

791

:

And, it's been exciting 'cause it's the

same one that I see and my, my karate

792

:

students faces when I do something and

they, they suddenly get it, And oh, and

793

:

that's a wonderful moment, as a teacher.

794

:

Speaker: Yeah.

795

:

Yeah.

796

:

Fantastic.

797

:

It makes me also think that perhaps

the next level, challenge would be

798

:

for those, residents and, and clients

who, who do have cognitive impairment

799

:

and they maybe don't understand the

importance of the, the need for help that

800

:

they're defaulting back living in the

past, so to speak, defaulting back to

801

:

thinking that they can manage their own

personal care, but in fact they can't.

802

:

And so then they are in

fact somewhat resistive.

803

:

And so there are these, I'm sure

you're aware these, strategies

804

:

like gentle persuasive approach.

805

:

So I'm sure that, your kind of approach

the next level would be also helpful for

806

:

those kinds of challenging situations

for caregivers and residents as well.

807

:

Ben: Yeah.

808

:

The, the communication, 'cause that's

another, I, I'm really focusing in on the,

809

:

the ergonomics right now, but I've spent

a lot of time teaching the communication

810

:

as well, and that's, It's the transition

of doing something in, in the worst

811

:

case scenario to someone in a better

scenario, doing something for someone.

812

:

And in my world, in the best scenario,

doing something with someone.

813

:

so communicating what's up?

814

:

Hey, is it okay with you if we

go to breakfast right now, oh,

815

:

we're gonna, we're gonna redirect,

we're gonna do all these things to

816

:

include.

817

:

and for me, everything

goes back to martial arts.

818

:

It's my life.

819

:

So, when, when you're doing.

820

:

really classical, jiujitsu,

it's critical that both sides

821

:

are engaged and fully engaged.

822

:

And one of the interesting pieces

that you don't see in the modern

823

:

arts is that the side that is the

teaching side is the senior side.

824

:

So the person who's being thrown is

the person who's on the teaching side.

825

:

because they have to feel the movement

so much more completely than the person

826

:

who's doing it because they are feeling

the movement being done to them and

827

:

then guiding the person through it.

828

:

sometimes even, without the person knowing

it, correcting the move on the way.

829

:

And to me, that's another

important approach.

830

:

The person who we are assisting,

the person receiving the

831

:

technique of the transfer is the

one who should be teaching us.

832

:

They teach us, their movement and then.

833

:

We respond to that by, kind of showing

them where to go with our movement.

834

:

And so that, that mutuality it,

it's so easy to get into the, the

835

:

space that I'm doing a transfer.

836

:

We are doing a transfer.

837

:

Me and the person who's, it's

a, it's a two person affair.

838

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

839

:

Ben: So if we don't include them in

that, and if we don't communicate

840

:

what's happening, and, I, I, to me,

I don't care if the person's not

841

:

even, able to verbally communicate.

842

:

I'm still talking.

843

:

we're, we're still going

through things and things.

844

:

I'm still asking permission.

845

:

Speaker: Right.

846

:

Ben: And I'm still looking at

facial expressions and allowing

847

:

that person to guide the process

as much as humanly possible.

848

:

And that's where I.

849

:

I, I, I deal a lot with the mechanics,

obviously, but, the, the heart of the

850

:

process has to be the person we're

assisting has to be the person who

851

:

is, we're performing this transfer on

them, they're receiving the transfer,

852

:

and their body is communicating to us.

853

:

They are teaching us how to move them.

854

:

and that's, they're the,

they're the important side.

855

:

They're the teaching side.

856

:

They show us we're not,

we're not doing it to them.

857

:

We're doing it with them

and they are guiding us.

858

:

Whether, even if in extreme dementia

in the, in late stage Alzheimer's say,

859

:

that person is still there, that person

is still guiding, and even if they're

860

:

not doing it with intention or even

super present, we can be really present

861

:

with what their body is telling us.

862

:

So.

863

:

That communication to me, that

mutuality is something that, again,

864

:

if we don't have that beginner's mind,

we start to just do stuff to people.

865

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

866

:

Ben: And that's one of the differences in

867

:

adequate care versus exceptional care, is

that in our minds, the person stays there.

868

:

They, they don't become a box over time

or a sack of rice that we're picking up.

869

:

They're a human being who

we are communicating with.

870

:

When I transfer them, they

are transferring with me.

871

:

We are sharing this experience and

they have to talk to me, even if it's

872

:

just physically and I have to listen.

873

:

one of the, one of the pieces of

healthcare that I think is really

874

:

lacking is the listening and.

875

:

I think there's a chaos in the insurance

companies and the trepidation and

876

:

the, the waiting periods and I mean,

it's, it's, it's really difficult to

877

:

put oneself in the hands of another.

878

:

Yeah.

879

:

And if there's not a space to be

heard in that, my wife went in and

880

:

had a doctor's appointment and, about

something she was very concerned about

881

:

and, the doctor just, he was trying,

but he just couldn't, his ears didn't

882

:

work and he couldn't see, this is

causing real grief and fear and sadness.

883

:

And if I just took one second and

let her talk and really listen.

884

:

So how are we accomplishing

that for people with dementia?

885

:

How are we understanding them as humans?

886

:

Speaker: Right.

887

:

Yeah.

888

:

Yeah, absolutely.

889

:

It's a, it's a really beautiful and

eloquent way of explaining that,

890

:

so I really appreciate it for sure.

891

:

And I mean, I think it just speaks to

the, just the immense value that, your

892

:

approach is bringing to this industry.

893

:

And so I was curious, so if, if you

were to think ahead in the next five, 10

894

:

years, with ongoing, buy-in and, and, and,

incorporation of these approaches that

895

:

Eastern ergonomics and Illuminate offers,

what would you say, if you were to kind

896

:

of, if you had your, your wishlist kind of

thing, how would healthcare look different

897

:

five or 10 years from now with these kinds

of approaches having been more, in, in,

898

:

implemented in a more widespread manner?

899

:

Ben: I mean the, the easy

one is reduction in injuries.

900

:

I have a very lofty goal of taking

transfer injuries off the top of the

901

:

list for the first time in forever.

902

:

for, for healthcare workers, I would

really like people to be safer.

903

:

what, what comes along with that is,

more money in the budget for things

904

:

that are, meaningful for residents.

905

:

hopefully things that are more

meaningful for the people who work there.

906

:

that's a lot of money we could

free up to do a lot of good.

907

:

So I, I would love to see that happen.

908

:

beyond that in a more, soft, soft focus,

I guess I would say that I, I would love

909

:

to see people embracing better structures.

910

:

I, I, I would like to see

people reexamine the assumptions

911

:

that we have about healthcare.

912

:

there's a lot of people with great

theory that doesn't meet the floor.

913

:

there's a lot of.

914

:

There's a lot of things out

there that I would like to be one

915

:

example saying, look, it's actually

more affordable, more engaging.

916

:

It reduces turnover.

917

:

It keeps your staff safe, and

it keeps them actually happy

918

:

because you show that you care.

919

:

And by doing that, they

stay, like who loses?

920

:

Who loses here?

921

:

Mm-hmm.

922

:

you save a ton of money.

923

:

Your staff stays on in the middle

of a, a caregiver crisis where

924

:

people are leaving the profession.

925

:

Baby boomers are entering the market.

926

:

I mean, we're in trouble.

927

:

Speaker: Yeah.

928

:

Ben: So you wanna keep your

people, here's how, here's a way.

929

:

So how can we do more things like that?

930

:

What are, what else are we assuming?

931

:

Without realizing the,

the things we don't know.

932

:

We don't know what, what things are

we assuming can't be fixed because we

933

:

just haven't seen anything different.

934

:

And can we look at those things?

935

:

I, I would love to see

that attitude breakthrough.

936

:

I think there's, I know there's a real

core of healthcare professionals who are

937

:

working in that attitude, in that space

who are breaking down those barriers

938

:

of what we've just accepted has to be.

939

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

940

:

Ben: Um, I'm, I'm lucky.

941

:

I, I got to work at one of those companies

for a long, long time and I, I want

942

:

to encourage the challenging of that.

943

:

I see, I see.

944

:

my mom has lived in a few different

memory cares now, and one was okay.

945

:

One was not so good.

946

:

And the one she's in now is

exceptionally, unbelievably wonderful.

947

:

she has, like, I, she, I,

I've seen light in her eyes.

948

:

I never thought I would see

again, because they don't accept

949

:

that this is how it has to be.

950

:

Yes, there's Alzheimer's disease.

951

:

We're at this stage in medical progress.

952

:

We're not coming back from that.

953

:

But she's alive again in a way that

I thought was gone because they

954

:

don't accept that your life is over,

955

:

And, and is that an assumption we have?

956

:

Oh, you have Alzheimer's disease.

957

:

It's done.

958

:

We're just waiting now.

959

:

And that's, that's awful.

960

:

I, I mean, that's a living person

who still has wants and needs and

961

:

sorrows, and joys and, one of the,

one of the, a little bit of a tangent,

962

:

but one of the things I've found,

my mother's a lifelong musician.

963

:

and she was a, a preacher's wife, and she

always, played every, played every Sunday.

964

:

And we all followed in the last

six months, she has started playing

965

:

like I've never heard before.

966

:

She started playing like a musician.

967

:

I mean, I always heard the preacher's

wife who was playing for the crowd, so

968

:

we could all sing along and keep beat.

969

:

Now, she sits down at the piano and she's

weaving like three or four songs together.

970

:

I have to sit and listen.

971

:

Oh, I heard a little bit of that and

it's this amazing thing that I've

972

:

never heard her let loose before.

973

:

What if that was everyone?

974

:

What if that was possibility for everyone?

975

:

that, that, this isn't it.

976

:

It's not over when you get this

diagnosis, and I know everyone will

977

:

say that, but do we act that way?

978

:

And, because of grief, because of stress,

because of all these things, it's really

979

:

difficult to act that way, to be really

present, for family caregivers especially,

980

:

but it takes a toll on the professionals,

who, who get attached to their patients

981

:

and they have to kind of dissociate.

982

:

and, then the injuries come and then the

overtime comes and all these, how can

983

:

we, and, and, my, my piece is a, a drop

in the bucket of that issue, but how can

984

:

we bring more presence to everything?

985

:

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

986

:

Ben: I guess, that's a, that's a

fairly lofty answer on the, on the

987

:

soft side of things, but, I just

don't accept that we can't do better

988

:

and that's what I'd like to see.

989

:

I'd like to see us do better.

990

:

I'd like to see us take the attitude

that you never stop doing better there.

991

:

That, that's, again, that goes

back to traditional martial arts.

992

:

You're not, I, I tell people

you're not ever gonna be good,

993

:

but you're gonna be better.

994

:

when you're, I've worked with people

who are the heads of 500 year old

995

:

systems, and, and they'll, they'll very

openly say, I'm still working on it.

996

:

I'm still trying to get it right.

997

:

Lifelong martial artists, 80 years old,

they're still trying to get it right.

998

:

That's what healthcare has to be.

999

:

We, we have to still be

trying to get it right.

:

00:59:01,048 --> 00:59:03,778

We have to have the best

places in the world and still

:

00:59:03,778 --> 00:59:04,768

be trying to get it better.

:

00:59:05,438 --> 00:59:09,458

if I could bring that attitude, that

would be a wonderful legacy for my life.

:

00:59:10,748 --> 00:59:12,098

Speaker: Fantastic, Ben.

:

00:59:12,098 --> 00:59:12,998

I really appreciate it.

:

00:59:12,998 --> 00:59:17,168

It's such a positive and optimistic

and inspiring and hopeful message,

:

00:59:17,408 --> 00:59:21,878

and I also really appreciate you being

open and sharing your personal story.

:

00:59:21,878 --> 00:59:26,608

It's just, really, I'm, I'm glad to

hear I'm, again, obviously it's tragic,

:

00:59:26,608 --> 00:59:29,848

that your mom has that condition, but

that she's in a place now that, as you

:

00:59:29,848 --> 00:59:32,458

describe, is working out well for you all.

:

00:59:32,788 --> 00:59:35,218

And it makes me think it's fascinating.

:

00:59:35,218 --> 00:59:36,778

You'd be interested in a book.

:

00:59:36,988 --> 00:59:41,818

I've just been in the middle of listening

to an audio book of, it's Daniel Leviton.

:

00:59:41,848 --> 00:59:44,878

It's, the book is called, I

Heard There was a Secret Chord.

:

00:59:45,218 --> 00:59:49,658

he's a neuroscientist, but he, he's

also a musician and a, a, a, a sound,

:

00:59:49,718 --> 00:59:51,188

sound engineer, music producer.

:

00:59:51,188 --> 00:59:54,548

And so he's got a lot of

information in that book about how.

:

00:59:54,818 --> 00:59:58,118

music can improve the lives of people with

all different kinds of health problems.

:

00:59:58,118 --> 01:00:01,838

When there's a chapter in there on

neurocognitive disorders and Alzheimer's

:

01:00:01,838 --> 01:00:05,048

and it's, it just made me think of that

'cause it's exactly what you're describing

:

01:00:05,048 --> 01:00:09,068

and having seen with your mom and her,

her music, over the past little while.

:

01:00:09,068 --> 01:00:10,748

So, again, thank you so much, Ben.

:

01:00:10,748 --> 01:00:13,658

I mean, this has just been an

incredible conversation about

:

01:00:13,658 --> 01:00:16,058

movement and safety and dignity.

:

01:00:16,308 --> 01:00:16,743

the ancient.

:

01:00:17,338 --> 01:00:21,568

Perhaps somewhat hidden wisdom

that caregiving can reclaim when we

:

01:00:21,568 --> 01:00:23,638

slow down and listen to the body.

:

01:00:24,138 --> 01:00:28,308

and I just find the work so compelling,

in that it doesn't necessarily ask

:

01:00:28,308 --> 01:00:33,108

caregivers to work harder, but it asks

them to work smarter more gently and more

:

01:00:33,108 --> 01:00:38,028

sustainably, as you say, with, with wins

all the way from the individuals, not

:

01:00:38,028 --> 01:00:41,478

only the caregivers, but the residents,

clients, patients, but all the way

:

01:00:41,478 --> 01:00:43,548

through to the systems and the society.

:

01:00:43,798 --> 01:00:47,608

it's just such a, a wonderful,

project and, and vision.

:

01:00:48,068 --> 01:00:52,028

so I would really encourage for viewers

and listeners, anyone who's working in.

:

01:00:52,388 --> 01:00:55,328

These kinds of fields, nursing

long-term care, dementia

:

01:00:55,328 --> 01:00:57,188

care, healthcare leadership.

:

01:00:57,398 --> 01:01:00,908

I would strongly encourage you to

learn more about Ben's work through

:

01:01:00,938 --> 01:01:02,948

Illumined and Eastern ergonomics.

:

01:01:03,128 --> 01:01:06,068

I'm gonna put links to all of

Ben's work in the show notes.

:

01:01:06,068 --> 01:01:09,518

So I'd really encourage you all to

check that out and get in touch with

:

01:01:09,518 --> 01:01:14,208

Ben and, just find out as much as you

need to about his amazing work and,

:

01:01:14,238 --> 01:01:16,448

and, just really inspiring projects.

:

01:01:16,658 --> 01:01:20,528

So again, Ben, thank you so much for

not only the decades that you've devoted

:

01:01:20,528 --> 01:01:24,728

to protecting caregivers and honoring

clients and residents and patients, but

:

01:01:24,728 --> 01:01:26,528

thank you so much for joining us today.

:

01:01:26,768 --> 01:01:29,888

Really appreciate your time

and, yeah, thanks again.

:

01:01:30,488 --> 01:01:31,058

Ben: Thank you, Michael.

:

01:01:31,058 --> 01:01:32,348

It was a wonderful conversation.

:

01:01:32,378 --> 01:01:32,948

I appreciate it.

:

01:01:34,058 --> 01:01:34,328

Speaker: Okay.

:

01:01:34,328 --> 01:01:35,858

We'll have to keep in touch for sure.

:

01:01:35,858 --> 01:01:39,108

And, yeah, like I said before, it'd

be great to get, your program up

:

01:01:39,108 --> 01:01:42,738

here in the Vancouver, Canada area,

and I think there's a lot of people

:

01:01:42,738 --> 01:01:43,998

that are gonna be really interested.

:

01:01:43,998 --> 01:01:46,618

And so, I'll definitely, keep

in touch with you and reach

:

01:01:46,618 --> 01:01:48,148

out and see if we can Yeah.

:

01:01:48,148 --> 01:01:50,548

Bring some of your programs up

into our facilities up here.

:

01:01:51,118 --> 01:01:51,538

Ben: All right.

:

01:01:51,628 --> 01:01:52,378

Thank you so much.

:

01:01:53,158 --> 01:01:53,458

Speaker: Okay.

:

01:01:53,458 --> 01:01:53,848

Take care.

:

01:01:53,848 --> 01:01:54,148

Thanks.

:

01:01:54,148 --> 01:01:54,448

Bye-bye.

:

01:01:54,773 --> 01:01:55,063

Ben: Okay,

:

01:01:55,063 --> 01:01:55,543

Speaker: bye-bye.

:

01:01:56,670 --> 01:02:00,210

Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining

us today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

:

01:02:00,450 --> 01:02:03,510

I hope that you enjoyed this

conversation as much as I did.

:

01:02:03,780 --> 01:02:07,140

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

:

01:02:07,140 --> 01:02:08,820

and subscribe to the podcast.

:

01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,850

It's the best way to make sure

that you never miss an episode.

:

01:02:12,165 --> 01:02:15,105

And it helps us to reach more

curious minds like yours.

:

01:02:15,855 --> 01:02:18,795

Also, if you think that today's

episode might resonate with a

:

01:02:18,795 --> 01:02:22,755

friend, a family member, or a

colleague, please share it with them.

:

01:02:23,085 --> 01:02:26,655

This kind of knowledge is better when

it's shared and you never know who else

:

01:02:26,655 --> 01:02:31,305

might find this information helpful

or inspiring for more details about.

:

01:02:32,005 --> 01:02:37,165

Ben's company and his projects, please

do check out the links in the show notes.

:

01:02:37,525 --> 01:02:41,545

Um, I would really encourage anyone

particularly in these fields who thinks

:

01:02:41,545 --> 01:02:45,205

that his approach might be something

that could improve the quality of

:

01:02:45,205 --> 01:02:47,275

care in your particular setting.

:

01:02:47,605 --> 01:02:51,385

Um, I think it would be great to reach

out and, uh, just find out as much as you

:

01:02:51,385 --> 01:02:55,645

can about what he has to offer because,

uh, it just strikes me as so innovative.

:

01:02:56,010 --> 01:03:01,470

And, um, interesting in terms of the, um,

likelihood that it's gonna improve the

:

01:03:01,470 --> 01:03:05,820

lives of not only the people that we're

caring for, but us as caregivers as well.

:

01:03:06,210 --> 01:03:10,320

Also, if you have any thoughts,

questions, or comments, please do put

:

01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,120

those in the comment section below.

:

01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:16,170

Um, if you have any ideas for future

episodes, I'd love to hear about that.

:

01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:20,040

Your questions, ideas, and any

feedback that you can offer certainly

:

01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:21,540

will make this podcast better.

:

01:03:22,085 --> 01:03:24,965

And finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

:

01:03:25,265 --> 01:03:29,525

It's gonna be another exciting journey

into the cutting edge of neuroscience,

:

01:03:29,525 --> 01:03:34,475

clinical neurostimulation, caregiving,

interventional mental health,

:

01:03:34,535 --> 01:03:38,135

ketamine, assisted psychotherapy,

all kinds of interesting topics.

:

01:03:38,315 --> 01:03:40,355

So thanks again for viewing and listening.

:

01:03:41,045 --> 01:03:43,025

So thanks again for

watching and listening.

:

01:03:43,235 --> 01:03:43,895

Take care.

:

01:03:43,895 --> 01:03:47,435

Stay curious, and I'll see you next

time on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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About the Podcast

The Neurostimulation Podcast
Exploring the frontier of interventional mental health.
Welcome to The Neurostimulation Podcast — a deep dive into the expanding frontier of interventional mental health.

Hosted by Dr. Michael Passmore, a psychiatrist specializing in neurostimulation and geriatric mental health, this show explores how cutting-edge interventions — from non-invasive brain stimulation (TMS, tDCS, and beyond) to ketamine-assisted psychotherapy — are reshaping the landscape of modern psychiatry and neuroscience.

Each episode bridges science, clinical experience, and human insight, featuring thought leaders and innovators who are redefining how we understand and treat the mind.

Whether you’re a clinician, researcher, student, or simply fascinated by the brain, you’ll discover practical knowledge, fresh ideas, and inspiring conversations that illuminate the evolving art and science of mental health care.

Subscribe for episodes that stimulate your mind, deepen your understanding, and connect you to the future of brain-based healing.

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About your host

Profile picture for Michael Passmore

Michael Passmore

Dr. Michael Passmore is a psychiatrist based in Vancouver, BC, with expertise in non-invasive neurostimulation therapies, geriatric mental health and ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Having completed specialized training in multiple neurostimulation modalities, including electroconvulsive therapy at Duke University and transcranial magnetic stimulation at Harvard University, Dr. Passmore brings a robust clinical and academic background to his practice. Formerly the head of the neurostimulation program in the department of Psychiatry at Providence Health Care, Dr. Passmore now serves as a clinical associate professor at the University of British Columbia’s Department of Psychiatry. At Sea to Sky NeuroClinic (seatoskyneuro.clinic), Dr. Passmore offers interventional mental health treatments tailored to clients across Canada.​