Living Life on Hard Mode: Understanding ADHD and Neurodivergence with Kit Slocum - #41- Feb 14, 2026

Speaker: 00:00:05

Welcome back to the

Neurostimulation Podcast.

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My guest today is Kit Slocum,

neurodiversity lead and learning

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experience designer at FLOWN.

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Kit works at the intersection of

psychology, behavioral neuroscience

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lived experience of ADHD and something

that we maybe don't talk enough about in

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productivity culture, the nervous system.

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Kit has coached hundreds of neurodivergent

professionals around the world, founders,

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creatives, physicians, leaders, and what

I understand that she sees again and again

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is that distraction isn't a moral failing.

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It's often a nervous system doing

exactly what it was designed to do

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in an environment that really wasn't

designed for modern human brains.

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So in this conversation, I'm hoping

that we can explore things like ADHD,

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neurodivergence burnout, productivity

myths, maybe even branching out in talking

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more, about interesting side topics like

Ketamine assisted psychotherapy, which I

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understand that Kit also has expertise in.

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and overall, you know, I'm looking

forward to hearing from Kit about

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some of her thoughts on what it

actually means to design work and

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lives that support attention rather

than constantly assaulting it.

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So Kit, thanks so much for joining

and welcome to the podcast.

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Yeah.

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Hello.

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I'm excited to be here.

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I am love geeking out about all

the topics you just mentioned,

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so I'm excited to have a, a good

hour long conversation about this.

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It's nice to meet you.

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Super.

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Yeah, thanks.

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Nice to meet you as well.

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Maybe you could start off by just

explaining a little bit about yourself,

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your background, telling us about

yourself, uh, just so that we can get up

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to speed on all of your interesting work

and your current projects these days.

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Yes.

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Well, I'm gonna start off

with saying I have ADHD.

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So in true ADHD fashion, I've had

a very long and winding path to the

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current present moment, which means

I've had, uh, my hands in multiple

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different types of, uh, areas and topics

and lots of different college majors.

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all and all of it has bled meat

here, which I'm quite happy

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with my, uh, current position.

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So, yeah, I'm trying to figure

out how, how far back I should go.

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I'll probably go back to when.

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I was first, kind of interested

in the brain because way back, so

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I just first, from transparency,

I grew up with a, pretty severely

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mentally ill mother with bipolar.

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and that kind of sparked this

interest and really wanting

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to understand human behavior.

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And that has really just informed my

entire life of I want to understand people

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and how we act as individuals, the systems

that we have within us, the systems that

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we exist, outside of us, and, you know, be

because of the, the mental illness there.

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I've had kinda a rough upbringing and so

it wasn't, went back to, went to back,

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went back to school a little later.

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So I put myself through

college, working full-time.

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And that is, you know, I tried

different majors and it wasn't until, I.

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Took my first psychology class

where I just could not get enough,

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uh, to the point where I would

read forward in my textbook.

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So we had assigned reading and

I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna read

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the whole thing in like two weeks.

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so that was, you know, where my,

the emergence of my love for the

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brain and, and people and behavior

really started to solidify.

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and then, you know, from there I

just started working in different

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labs and things in school, and

then I kind of moved into more, I

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found working in labs quite dry.

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I was like, I wanna be on the

people facing side of things.

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So I started working, as a coach in

higher academia, the University of

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Washington, and helped, uh, different

kinds of students, um, who were on

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academic probation or if they were first

generation students or students, you

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know, saw over time with no diversions.

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But, you know, a lot of them

struggled with the, uh, college

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experience just because they haven't.

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Didn't have the right tools and

system design for them, or they

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never have experienced before, had

parents that showed them the way.

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So, um, that was where I got

my first taste of coaching.

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Uh, so, and, and as I said, a lot of my

students there were neurodivergent and

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I started to see patterns within myself

that my neuro divergent, uh, students had.

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So I was like, oh, interesting.

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Um, and then I stru, you know, I

would struggle sometimes in college

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with, with taking tests on time and,

uh, you know, it was trying to be

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clear to me that I might have ADHD.

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So I went to go get my formal

diagnosis within, you know, 20 minutes.

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He was like, yep.

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So communicated, uh, and.

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My whole life kind of changed

things, got a lot easier.

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Uh, but that's still that burning

desire to understand people

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and the brain was still there.

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Um, so I feel like the, the medication

and just having the knowledge of that

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I have ADHD was kind of starting to

bring in the lived experience and then,

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you know, I already had the kind of

more academic, uh, coming in as well.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, so yeah, it's a little long-winded,

but it's time in my adult career.

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Then I started, um, you know,

continue with coaching and I went

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into instructional design with,

uh, you know, kind of is where my

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learning experience design came in.

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Um, and again, it comes

down to human behavior.

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You know, how our brains like to

learn best, how we retain information

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best, you know, our memory, our focus.

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and then did that for a while.

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Then COVID hit and it

was really challenging.

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And then somehow I found, found

myself in working for, I'm not gonna

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name the name of it, but it's a

telehealth, uh, ketamine company.

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And, started working there and that

just opened up my world even more.

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And I saw hundreds of, of different

types of clients and everywhere

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from, you know, severe mental illness

to just neurodivergence to folks

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that just wanted to help increase

neuroplasticity and learn better.

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So a very, very diverse panel of

people from, from all over the, the,

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the state, different age ranges,

different kind of cultural backgrounds.

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and it was really beautiful to see

just, you know, my brain was just

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soaking all of the, the patterns up

of, oh, this, this behavior, because

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of this context or, or this person's

familial upbringing and their cultural

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upbringing plus their neurodivergence

kind of creates these outcomes.

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And I started to kind of see

like there's every individual is

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this kaleidoscope of experience.

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We all have.

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Multiple variables kind

of, um, affecting us.

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And so how, you know, our, our personality

traits manifest, how our neurodivergence

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manifest is all gonna be wildly different.

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Mm-hmm.

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So how the tools and strategies

and environments that work

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best for individuals are also

gonna look wildly different.

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And so that poses a challenge

that, okay, we live in a very

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one size fits all kind of world.

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Um, and it's not, uh, conducive to a

lot of, um, folks' success or wellbeing.

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Mm-hmm.

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That's, this was a, an idea

that started to, to pop up.

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Um, when I was at the, the telehealth

ketamine company, then I found loan.

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So, and they kind of posed a, um, a, I

get a bit of, of a, a solution like, like

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one, one solution to what I was seeing.

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Um, and they are a body

doubling app, um, or.

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Community where folks can get together,

especially if they're feeling the,

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kind of, uh, the, the outcome of, of being

is new remote workspace after: 2020

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And we're dealing, you know,

with loneliness and, um, the

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inability to focus and, yeah,

again, that, that, uh, loneliness,

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kind of factors is a large one.

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Okay.

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and the community there was just amazing.

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And they were all just very aligned

with, okay, how do we help people?

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Work better.

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Um, and when I, when I say better,

not just more efficiently, but

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for their wellbeing as well.

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So feel good doing it.

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and we, we go about, go about, uh,

talk about this in a bit, but the

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world we live in is very dysregulating.

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Our work environment can be quite

dysregulating and so flown kind of

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answers or creates a solution of,

okay, how do we create environments

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where people can feel more supported,

no matter if you're neurodivergent or

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neurotypical or your cultural background.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I'm at flown now full time, uh,

and I'm bringing all the different

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experiences, so like learning,

experience, design, the neurodiversity

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of lead, so I do coaching, but also

help design, certain types of focus

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systems in for individuals and teams.

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So everyone on their team has

accommodations, knows how to

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have different conversations

about neuro divergence.

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And yeah, hopefully that, I feel

like that wasn't very concise, but

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there's brought me to where I'm now.

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Did that answer your question?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah, no thanks.

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I thought, I thought it was really,

a great introduction in terms of

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the path that you've taken, the

journey, you know, including that

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lived experience that's so valuable.

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You know, in terms of just being able

to have the empathy that's critical

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in helping people with different

kinds of challenges like this.

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And I think it's, it's super interesting

because it makes me, you know, when I

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was reviewing your work ahead of time,

what really struck me was this concept

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of the, you know, historically as you,

as you're alluding to, I think like,

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you know, education and, you know,

legacy kind of experiences around,

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qualifications for various jobs.

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It does really kind of engender

this sense of, well, you just

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have to like work harder, right?

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But that, where that doesn.

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It doesn't work for, for a lot of people.

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And it's more of an issue around, like,

the so-called impairment is more of a

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mismatch between what society, well,

how society is structured, like say

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the, the, the, you know, the, the school

or the workplace, how it's structured

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and what really that's demanding of

people and how it's not respectful

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of a variety of different ways that

people are, are actually best able

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to learn and perform for themselves.

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So it, it's like, and I, and I think

perhaps you can talk a bit about it,

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but from my, what I understand that you

have this concept of people living life

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on hard mode, which I love because,

you know, growing up in the eighties

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and, you know, being, uh, interested

in video games and thinking about,

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yeah, it's like living life on, on

like super hard mode if you're, if

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you're playing a video game, right.

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So how, like maybe if you could

explain for us some of your thoughts

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around those kinds of topics.

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Yeah.

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Oh, that's great to hear.

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I'm a huge gamer as well, so that's

kind informed, um, that idea.

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Uh, yeah.

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So I mean, if you.

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Think about, I mean, if we're just

talking about Neurodivergence, um,

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the world wasn't necessarily designed

with neuro divergent people in mind.

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You know, a lot of our systems are very

linear, rely a lot on being very punctual.

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it is kinda appeals to a very certain type

of brain and way of cognition or, yeah.

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so, you know, when I've seen this with

all my clients and I'm trying to just

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stay in the realm of neurodivergence,

I see this with my chronic illness

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folks as well, or folks with more

severe mental health challenges.

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yeah, it's like being on hard mode.

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You know, a lot of people almost have

like a manual, especially if you have,

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you know, a very comfortable, uh,

familial situation and your parents went

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to college and they'll teach you how

to do these things and exist in life.

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And, um, some folks don't have like the

same, uh, you know, those resources.

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And so it's almost like bewilderment.

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It's just like, how do I do my taxes?

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Like how do I budget,

how do I make sure I.

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Get to these appointments on time.

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so yeah, so I guess it does,

you know, feel like life on

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hard mode or maximum hard mode.

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And I try to normalize that a lot in

the course I teach and with my clients

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that, um, it's, there's often this

narrative that where the problem,

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you know, like, I'm lazy, I'm not

smart enough, I keep messing up.

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Why can't I just do this?

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Right?

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And a lot of the, some systems that

we're in, sometimes it is our family,

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sometimes it is institutions, school,

like universities or, you know, just

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our, our work, they kind of reinforce

those beliefs, even if it's covertly.

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Um, and sometimes overly there's, you

know, folks that that kind of say, oh,

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people with ADHD are just really lazy.

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Uh, but just bringing us a normalization

of my clients that, you know, it's

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not their fault either living in

a system that wasn't designed,

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for them, with them in mind.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I guess it's, what's exciting is

that with increased awareness about that,

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then that's how things change, right?

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Where there's change of expectations,

then change of framework.

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and I guess it sounds like

focus is a main topic, right?

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So that, so that the, the framing issue,

so focus is considered as more of a

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primary nervous system issue, which it is,

you know, attention slash focus as opposed

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to a willpower issue or a laziness issue.

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So, yeah, just exp if you don't mind

just expanding a little bit more on

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that specific shift of, of framing,

which I think is very valuable.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And I wanted, I'm sorry.

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So again, just focusing on no

divergence, but I want to just

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preface this by saying we live in a

very dysregulating world right now.

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I mean, I, I think that, I assume

that we are in the most quickly

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moving complicated fast place in human

history than we ever happened before.

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We have a little computer in our

pocket where we have access to, uh,

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not only our immediate community, but.

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World atrocities globally, um,

pings and dings are going off.

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We have constant to-do lists if, you

know, we're working and trying to have

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a family and take care of ourselves.

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And it's just a lot.

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so neurotypical or neurodivergent, I think

that we are in a very overstimulating

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time at the moment, but when you add

to the mix, you know, we have, and you

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probably, this is funny 'cause I know

you're a professor of psychiatry, so,

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uh, stop me if I'm preaching to the choir

here, but just less sufficient filtering,

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just have different, a little bit of

different wiring, the prefrontal cortex.

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So our executive functioning,

maybe doesn't work the same

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way as a neurotypical person.

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So.

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We're typically very inundated

by a lot of different stimuli.

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tactile stimuli.

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Maybe there's a clothing tag,

you know, that's bothering us,

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or the temperature of the lights.

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Um, emotional stimuli.

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We have much, much harder time

filtering all of that out.

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So it can sometimes feel like

this mental and emotional

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traffic jam within the brain.

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we have less, less of a tolerance

than neurotypical people, uh, there.

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So we add our very dysregulating

overstimulating world on top of the

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kind of brain structure that we have.

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You know, you can see that it's

just creating this, um, kind of

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hurricane of, of thoughts and

emotions and, and feelings, and

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that's not conducive to focus.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, um, and the, the constant

overstimulation, does, you know, kind of

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activate that sympathetic nervous system.

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And I always say this in my courses,

our sympathetic nervous state

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isn't a bad thing 'cause obviously.

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Been designed for a reason.

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but when you're in it too long, then it

can cause things like health problems and

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um, you know, just throws for a whirl.

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so, but when we think about us constantly

being in this kind of more sympathetic

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state because we're overwhelmed mm-hmm.

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Uh, then it's to be, you know, near

impossible to get focused because

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we know we want the system to feel

regulated, before we can even get

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into focus, before we can get into,

to, flow state and have that, you

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know, sense of clarity and, and peace.

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So.

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Does that make sense?

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No, absolutely.

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It does make sense a lot.

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I mean, the executive function

piece is obviously super important.

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Right.

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And I guess part of, I'd be interested

to hear about in your, in your teaching

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and in your coaching, you know, what

are some steps that you might suggest

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so that, um, perhaps neurodivergent

people have tools so that they can.

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You know, encounter their daily

kinds of experiences with, with less

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propensity perhaps to get overwhelmed.

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'cause I mean, personally, like I, I

think I have a degree of, or maybe a

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more than just a degree of like a high

sensitivity, like I'm quite sensitive

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to sound, I'm quite sensitive to

overstimulation, you know, and I'll

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typically, you know, wanna retreat

and just leave, like, even like loud

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conversations, multiple different people,

conversations going on at the same time.

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I find it pretty overwhelming.

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Right.

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So that sense of sensitivity that you're

describing, um, pretty familiar with that.

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So what kinds of tools do you

sometimes equip people with, say

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: 00:17:04

if they're, you know, new clients

or, or, you know, in the, in the

300

: 00:17:07

classroom if you're helping students

understand that concept and, um, yeah.

301

: 00:17:12

What kinds of tools could be

helpful to, to just allow for some

302

: 00:17:15

adaptation around those challenges?

303

: 00:17:18

Yeah.

304

: 00:17:19

Oh, my brain's firing off

because I could give you over 50.

305

: 00:17:23

So trying figure out where to start.

306

: 00:17:26

Hmm.

307

: 00:17:27

So there are more practical

tools that you can use.

308

: 00:17:30

So I always really encourage clients to

kind of take, you know, little check-ins

309

: 00:17:35

and audits of how they work best.

310

: 00:17:37

So if you are more sensitive to auditory

information or maybe you're more visually

311

: 00:17:40

sensitive, you're more tactile sensitive,

kinda start seeing, taking a little

312

: 00:17:45

audit of, okay, in which situations.

313

: 00:17:47

Have I felt most dysregulated?

314

: 00:17:49

What feels really sensitive to me

and kind of keep a little list,

315

: 00:17:52

um, because then, you know, you

can start creating accommodations,

316

: 00:17:56

um, for those particular instances.

317

: 00:17:58

So for example, if you are someone, and

I'm using myself for example, in, in this

318

: 00:18:03

situation, I'm really visually sensitive,

so I have to have very specific lighting.

319

: 00:18:07

Fluorescent lighting gives me

really bad headaches, makes

320

: 00:18:10

me feel really overwhelmed.

321

: 00:18:11

I actually do start to get

that sympathetic response.

322

: 00:18:13

Mm-hmm.

323

: 00:18:13

Um, if you are more auditory, more

auditory sensitivities, I have one

324

: 00:18:18

colleague who wears, noise canceling

headphones when she goes grocery shopping.

325

: 00:18:22

Um, just to kind of drown

out the, the noise a bit.

326

: 00:18:26

and so it is really kind of.

327

: 00:18:28

Treating yourself with some curiosity

and then compassion as you would.

328

: 00:18:31

It sounds a little cheesy as a best friend

and be like, Hey, okay, so I'm finding

329

: 00:18:34

some challenges here, here and here.

330

: 00:18:36

What are some ways that I

can kind of bring in some

331

: 00:18:38

more practical kind of tools?

332

: 00:18:41

So that's one thing.

333

: 00:18:42

but I think some, as a, as a tool that

I use a lot with, especially new clients

334

: 00:18:47

that come and see me, they're usually

in pretty, uh, pretty severe burnout.

335

: 00:18:52

you know, I have this spectrum of burnout.

336

: 00:18:55

So there's, there's green,

yellow, orange, and red.

337

: 00:18:59

And green is, you're pretty regulated.

338

: 00:19:01

You can handle most of your

everyday kind of tasks and things.

339

: 00:19:05

Yellow, starting to feel a little

wobbly, maybe your energy battery.

340

: 00:19:08

You wake up and it's about

80% and starts to drain.

341

: 00:19:12

orange is when, maybe you're seeing a lot

of your, your burnout signals come up.

342

: 00:19:16

So maybe you're more

irritable, a little more weepy.

343

: 00:19:19

I get really weepy.

344

: 00:19:20

uh.

345

: 00:19:22

Struggling to focus, uh, you know,

just some of those kind of signals.

346

: 00:19:27

And then red is almost debilitation.

347

: 00:19:29

You're having trouble,

uh, beating yourself.

348

: 00:19:31

Basic hygiene, absolutely no motivation.

349

: 00:19:34

Just absolute.

350

: 00:19:36

Feeling awful.

351

: 00:19:37

And so when clients come to me, they're

usually in the orange or the red.

352

: 00:19:41

So they're at their wit's end

and they really need some help.

353

: 00:19:43

So like, time to get a coach.

354

: 00:19:45

So, we, I use a tool called

the Energy Regulation Matrix.

355

: 00:19:49

I'm gonna try to explain this without

the visualization in front of me

356

: 00:19:53

because I get, I rely a lot on visuals.

357

: 00:19:55

We can, we can, sorry to interrupt

you, but we can, I'll get a copy of the

358

: 00:19:58

visualization, we can add that in the

show notes for people and they can just

359

: 00:20:01

click on that and have a look and see.

360

: 00:20:02

But yeah.

361

: 00:20:03

Oh, wonderful.

362

: 00:20:04

Carry on.

363

: 00:20:04

That's great.

364

: 00:20:05

Yeah.

365

: 00:20:06

Yeah.

366

: 00:20:06

So it's called the

Energy Regulation Matrix.

367

: 00:20:07

The tool I designed, uh, quite a bit

ago, but based on the patterns I was

368

: 00:20:11

seeing with folks, but, um, there's an

X axis and a Y axis, and on the Y axis

369

: 00:20:16

is your, nervous system regulation.

370

: 00:20:20

So you're feeling

regulated or dysregulated.

371

: 00:20:22

And on the X axis there is regular energy.

372

: 00:20:24

So is this energizing you or is this,

uh, kinda taking away your energy?

373

: 00:20:28

And those concepts sound pretty similar,

but they're actually a little different.

374

: 00:20:32

A little different.

375

: 00:20:32

I'll explain why in a second.

376

: 00:20:34

So when we're looking at the, um,

nervous system regulation part of the

377

: 00:20:38

graph, so things that might be really

dysregulating are certain people in

378

: 00:20:43

relationships or, um, you know, being

overstimulated 'cause there's too much

379

: 00:20:47

sound going on, or things that are

regulating might be really safe people

380

: 00:20:51

that you feel like you can be yourself

with, you can completely unmask around.

381

: 00:20:54

Um, maybe a gentle yin

yoga, taking a bath.

382

: 00:20:57

Um, I used to sniff my cat's ears.

383

: 00:20:59

He's passed now, but like

pet, like petting a pet.

384

: 00:21:02

So things that really make

you feel safe and calm.

385

: 00:21:05

And then on the other axis, the X axis,

we have energy giving and energy draining.

386

: 00:21:10

So energy giving could be a cup of coffee.

387

: 00:21:14

Um, a really stimulating great

conversation with a friend.

388

: 00:21:18

on the other hand, the draining

could be watching a really long

389

: 00:21:22

presentation, um, maybe listening to

a friend who, uh, feels very safe, but

390

: 00:21:29

maybe they just yap and yap and yap.

391

: 00:21:32

Maybe I'm talking about myself.

392

: 00:21:33

And so you're feeling a little bit

drained after, even though you're

393

: 00:21:36

still feeling a place of safety.

394

: 00:21:38

And the power of this, uh, graph is

you can really start plotting the

395

: 00:21:43

different kinds of people experiences

and things in your life that are nervous

396

: 00:21:47

system regulating and energy giving.

397

: 00:21:50

And this is such a powerful tool.

398

: 00:21:51

I'm, really glad you're gonna show

the, the graph because one just folks

399

: 00:21:55

can kind of take that audit and see

which kind of people, which kind of

400

: 00:21:58

activities and, and their life, uh,

are regulating and, and energy giving.

401

: 00:22:02

You can start, uh, first of all

take a look at that graph and see

402

: 00:22:05

if most of their activities are in

maybe a different part of the graph.

403

: 00:22:09

Uh, so in that energy draining nervous

system, dysregulating, if you're seeing

404

: 00:22:13

that a lot of your activities and people

in your life are kind of nestled in

405

: 00:22:16

that area, it's a good idea to be like,

okay, I think maybe I need to start

406

: 00:22:20

bringing in some of these activities.

407

: 00:22:22

So it's all about awareness.

408

: 00:22:25

and this tool I use with pretty much

every one of my, my clients and to get

409

: 00:22:29

out of burnout and to regulate ourselves,

we wanna just keep kind of looking into

410

: 00:22:33

our toolkit in that upper part of the

graph of the nervous system regulating

411

: 00:22:37

and um, energy giving activities.

412

: 00:22:40

How did I do about explaining

that without the graphic?

413

: 00:22:44

Because it was really difficult.

414

: 00:22:45

It was great.

415

: 00:22:46

It was fantastic.

416

: 00:22:47

And, and that sounds like

such an incredible tool.

417

: 00:22:49

I'm just so looking forward to seeing

the graph and posting that and, and

418

: 00:22:54

you know, hopefully even, you know, if

that's okay starting to use it as well

419

: 00:22:58

because I think that, um, you know, I

can think of a number of people, um,

420

: 00:23:03

you know, that I could potentially

suggest, uh, that uh, kind of approach

421

: 00:23:08

for, I think it makes perfect sense.

422

: 00:23:09

Right?

423

: 00:23:09

And even, um, in terms of like, what

it makes me also think of is this idea.

424

: 00:23:14

I mean, I, I really, I find the

idea of, of energy giving and energy

425

: 00:23:19

draining very compelling, right?

426

: 00:23:20

Because it, it makes me think of things

you know, introversion where people

427

: 00:23:24

kind of feel as, 'cause I'm a very,

you know, a pretty high introvert.

428

: 00:23:28

You, you know, you have

this sense of needing to.

429

: 00:23:31

Retreat, you know, you know, you have to

kind of like the introverted part is, is

430

: 00:23:35

that you need to sort of retreat into kind

of alone time to be, or at least you know,

431

: 00:23:41

not time with like a bunch of other people

to be sort of restored in terms of energy.

432

: 00:23:45

Whereas for extroverts is the opposite.

433

: 00:23:46

You know, their restoration of energy

involves socializing a lot and being

434

: 00:23:50

out there and doing this and that.

435

: 00:23:51

Right?

436

: 00:23:51

So there's that kind of polarity.

437

: 00:23:53

Mm-hmm.

438

: 00:23:54

Um, and I think that the energy giving,

energy draining paradigm is so interesting

439

: 00:23:58

as well because it relates to, um.

440

: 00:24:01

The emotional repercussions of when

people are misaligned in that way.

441

: 00:24:05

I think for a lot of people, they feel

kind of like there's something wrong

442

: 00:24:09

with them, but it's actually not that

there's something wrong with them.

443

: 00:24:12

Um, you know, there's probably, I think

I'd like to talk, maybe this would be a

444

: 00:24:15

good time to, to ask you a bit about that

because, you know, when, when there's

445

: 00:24:20

that kind of misalignment and then people

start to feel that there's something

446

: 00:24:24

wrong with them, um, and then they start

feeling anxious and then depressed.

447

: 00:24:29

Um, it just makes me wonder about like

how like guilt and shame can kind of

448

: 00:24:33

come in because people are starting

to feel as though they're the problem.

449

: 00:24:38

Right?

450

: 00:24:38

As, as far as that kind

of dynamic is concerned.

451

: 00:24:41

So maybe, um.

452

: 00:24:43

Yeah, what are some of your thoughts

around that in terms of like, because it's

453

: 00:24:46

quite well known that like neurodivergent

people, particularly before you know,

454

: 00:24:51

they get help or before they maybe even

have a diagnosis, you know, that there's

455

: 00:24:54

a common theme that they'll carry shame

and guilt and self-blame because they feel

456

: 00:24:59

they're, you know, they, they, they're,

they're, uh, lack of confidence that,

457

: 00:25:04

that they're not intelligent and all these

kinds of in inappropriate self appraisals.

458

: 00:25:08

So yeah.

459

: 00:25:09

What are some of your thoughts

about that kind of thing?

460

: 00:25:12

Yeah, great question.

461

: 00:25:14

And before I forget, there's a

book called Quiet that I think is

462

: 00:25:17

about the power of introversion.

463

: 00:25:19

I haven't read it, but a lot of

my introverted friends love it.

464

: 00:25:21

So just a little shout out to that.

465

: 00:25:24

Totally.

466

: 00:25:24

Yeah, I think I would definitely highlight

and recommend the book Quiet as well.

467

: 00:25:27

I can't remember the author's

name, but it's a fantastic book.

468

: 00:25:30

Yeah, it's great.

469

: 00:25:30

I'm very extroverted, obviously, so

I have a lot of introverted friends.

470

: 00:25:35

yes.

471

: 00:25:35

Shame.

472

: 00:25:36

So that's a tricky and hairy

one, and especially when.

473

: 00:25:41

I primarily see late stage

diagnosis, uh, for my clients.

474

: 00:25:45

And so they've lived their

entire life with this narrative.

475

: 00:25:50

And again, as I mentioned earlier,

with almost this, um, and, and, uh,

476

: 00:25:55

like a affirmation of that because

of the world they, they grew up in.

477

: 00:25:59

And we are shifting a bit away, I think,

societally from, especially in, in

478

: 00:26:04

the US of the pathology paradigm and

more into the neurodiversity paradigm.

479

: 00:26:07

So we're starting to have conversations

about Neurodivergence, which is great.

480

: 00:26:11

Uh, so one of the things I, I really try

to do is, um, 'cause I think sometimes

481

: 00:26:17

it can be damaging when people say,

oh, ADHD is a superpower because like,

482

: 00:26:22

it can be, you know, but it's always

this, like, it's always contextual.

483

: 00:26:25

Um, it's always, it can be, it's not

a hundred percent definitive, but more

484

: 00:26:29

so bringing this idea of neutrality.

485

: 00:26:31

You know, it's not good or bad,

it just is just a part of us.

486

: 00:26:34

And I use this analogy a lot.

487

: 00:26:36

It's, um.

488

: 00:26:37

You know, if we have blue eyes or,

or brown eyes or green eyes, it's

489

: 00:26:41

all beautiful eye colors, but blue

eyed people, maybe they're a little

490

: 00:26:44

more sensitive to the sun outside.

491

: 00:26:46

So there's, you know, have a little

darker sunglasses prescription.

492

: 00:26:50

And there's just a sense

of neutrality to that.

493

: 00:26:51

We, it's like culturally, we don't

really think that that's a deficit.

494

: 00:26:56

however, because we've kind of

historically been in this pathology

495

: 00:26:59

paradigm, we've approached, uh,

ADHD or any kinda neuro divergence

496

: 00:27:03

as something to be fixed.

497

: 00:27:05

you know, there's something

wrong with you as an individual

498

: 00:27:07

and we have to fix your brain.

499

: 00:27:09

But instead, shifting the

conversations more as, as we said

500

: 00:27:12

before, shifting the conversations

to what's wrong with the system.

501

: 00:27:16

What barriers of access do

we have within the system?

502

: 00:27:20

you know, we all have different

types of the, you know, the

503

: 00:27:23

neurodivergent, uh, paradigm.

504

: 00:27:25

Neurodiversity paradigm is just, um.

505

: 00:27:28

Everyone has different wiring, you know,

and there's no, and it's not, uh, there,

506

: 00:27:33

there's nothing to be, to be fixed.

507

: 00:27:34

We just meet my, and this goes for,

for folks who have, you know, severe

508

: 00:27:37

anxiety or maybe have schizophrenia,

just need different types of, you know,

509

: 00:27:41

maybe even neurochemical accommodations

so that they can live their life.

510

: 00:27:44

Well.

511

: 00:27:45

That's it.

512

: 00:27:46

So first I, I really try to

bring in a sense of neutrality.

513

: 00:27:50

and then, you know, it's difficult

'cause it, it's, it's, we're, we're

514

: 00:27:53

creating new neural pathways here, so it

could take a really long time to start.

515

: 00:27:57

I use a lot of CBT and IFS internal family

systems and my coaching and in my course.

516

: 00:28:03

Uh, but then kind of again, bringing

that idea of curiosity and that inquiry

517

: 00:28:08

itself of, um, okay, these parts that

feel shameful, why are they shameful?

518

: 00:28:13

Like, where do these stories come from?

519

: 00:28:15

Did my parent tell me that?

520

: 00:28:16

Did someone in school tell me that?

521

: 00:28:18

Um, like culturally, is this

what I've seen in the media?

522

: 00:28:20

Um, is that true?

523

: 00:28:22

Here are all, you know, compassionately

challenging the self with what are

524

: 00:28:26

all the, the ways that isn't true?

525

: 00:28:28

What are all the ways that that is true?

526

: 00:28:30

Um, it is just a lot of kind

of gentle and tangling there.

527

: 00:28:34

Um, I always love the word compassionately

challenging, um, because we do

528

: 00:28:37

wanna bring in that sense of, of,

you know, grace with the self.

529

: 00:28:40

Especially because, you know, um,

I've noticed especially in, in the

530

: 00:28:45

ADHD community, not so much my other

neuro diversion clients, that there's

531

: 00:28:48

almost this, sometimes this frustration

and the anger with the self as well.

532

: 00:28:52

It's oh my gosh.

533

: 00:28:53

why can't I just be normal?

534

: 00:28:54

Like, quote unquote, or

why can't I just do this?

535

: 00:28:56

And so we wanna be very careful about,

you know, when we're talking with those

536

: 00:29:01

parts of ourselves and kind of, um, uh,

uh, opening dialogue with those parts of

537

: 00:29:06

ourselves to, to bring the compassion and,

and the gentle curiosity with, with them.

538

: 00:29:12

so I feel like I'm a little bit

all over the place here, but sense

539

: 00:29:14

of nut neutrality, of kind opening

up that curiosity with the self

540

: 00:29:18

and compassionately challenging.

541

: 00:29:21

and yeah, I think that's it.

542

: 00:29:22

I'll stop there for now.

543

: 00:29:23

Oh, one more thing.

544

: 00:29:25

and I will say, oh, this is a complex

topic, but oftentimes when we're

545

: 00:29:30

neurodivergent, we heavily mask, which

means we will change our, uh, you know,

546

: 00:29:36

micro behaviors, maybe how we look, how

we talk, what we say, or we don't say to

547

: 00:29:40

fit into social situations or, or work.

548

: 00:29:43

and especially if we have a late

diagnosis we had diagnosed in our, our

549

: 00:29:46

forties or or fifties, a lot of the

relationships and the environments that

550

: 00:29:50

we're in are a result of our masking.

551

: 00:29:53

So then when we start to unravel these

narratives about ourselves, we may

552

: 00:29:57

find that those relationships and those

environments don't fit us anymore.

553

: 00:30:01

Mm-hmm.

554

: 00:30:01

Then we're almost having this, this

sense of grief and loss as we have to.

555

: 00:30:06

It is a very strange, um, kind of,

experience, and I see this over and

556

: 00:30:11

over again in my clients, that there's

this beautiful kind of old unfolding

557

: 00:30:15

of the self where they're finally

able to just be themselves unmasked.

558

: 00:30:18

Mm-hmm.

559

: 00:30:19

But then.

560

: 00:30:20

There's people in life and, you know,

sometimes the, the work environments

561

: 00:30:24

aren't, uh, kind of compatible.

562

: 00:30:26

So then they have to kind of

make these really big changes

563

: 00:30:28

and it can be terrifying.

564

: 00:30:30

Mm-hmm.

565

: 00:30:30

Um, and on the other hand, the other

side of that too is this, this grief of.

566

: 00:30:34

Wow.

567

: 00:30:35

I've had to live the last 40 years of

my life masked and not being myself.

568

: 00:30:39

And so there's that whole thing.

569

: 00:30:41

There's, there's a lot that

happens, um, in, in this space.

570

: 00:30:44

I'm, I'm gonna stop there.

571

: 00:30:46

Mm-hmm.

572

: 00:30:46

You know what, it's actually a

really perfect segue because what,

573

: 00:30:50

you know, what that exact thing that

you just mentioned makes me think of

574

: 00:30:52

is the changes that are often seen

in ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

575

: 00:30:56

Right.

576

: 00:30:56

Because for similar reasons, people

find that they get contact with

577

: 00:31:01

their genuine selves and that.

578

: 00:31:04

Creates a situation for many people, as

I'm sure you've seen in your own practice

579

: 00:31:08

with, with ketamine, that they, they

then are challenged by not only just

580

: 00:31:13

having to grieve the past and having

had these masks on for many years, if

581

: 00:31:16

not decades, but then how to go about,

you know, facing life the way that it's

582

: 00:31:21

been structured in a new way to try to

accommodate what they're learning through

583

: 00:31:26

their ketamine assisted psychotherapy.

584

: 00:31:27

Right.

585

: 00:31:28

So there are parallels there it

sounds with, with what you've

586

: 00:31:31

experienced and what you coach with

the neurodivergent and, and I'm sure

587

: 00:31:34

there's many overlaps as well too.

588

: 00:31:37

Yeah, absolutely.

589

: 00:31:39

Um, there was one thing that I would

always say when I started working with the

590

: 00:31:42

Ketamine client is, the, any psychedelic

therapies can be extraordinarily

591

: 00:31:47

disruptive because they really do

just can turn your life upside down.

592

: 00:31:52

It's really good to proceed with,

um, intentionality and care in

593

: 00:31:56

those spaces, especially as a guide.

594

: 00:31:58

just.

595

: 00:31:59

For, yeah, for that, that reason it

was just mentioned, um, beautiful.

596

: 00:32:03

But also, yeah, very disruptive.

597

: 00:32:04

I think it's, uh, the term is

unspoken contract, is that right?

598

: 00:32:09

What it's called?

599

: 00:32:09

Yeah.

600

: 00:32:09

Unspoken contract.

601

: 00:32:10

And we have these kind of, um,

relationships in our, our life and,

602

: 00:32:15

yeah, they're not explicitly said

how they are, but they, yeah, can

603

: 00:32:19

be different as, as, as soon as

we go through the therapy itself.

604

: 00:32:23

Mm-hmm.

605

: 00:32:24

Yeah, and I guess that speaks

to the importance of the

606

: 00:32:26

integration piece, right?

607

: 00:32:27

So whether it's ketamine assisted

psychotherapy as far as the

608

: 00:32:31

integration, that's critical.

609

: 00:32:33

Then it makes me think that also then

when, when working with neurodivergent

610

: 00:32:38

clients, then there's an important

part of the coaching probably that

611

: 00:32:42

comes into it as far as integrating.

612

: 00:32:44

So how do, how does this, how do

these changes, how does this new

613

: 00:32:47

insight, require an integration so

that it's not, it's not sort of a.

614

: 00:32:53

It, it doesn't add to the disruption, but

it can, there can be some more coherence

615

: 00:32:57

and the person can eventually find the

integration fits more with their genuine

616

: 00:33:01

sense of self, and that helps 'em to go

forward and just sort of navigate maybe

617

: 00:33:06

almost like with a, with a, an updated

map, if that's a reasonable metaphor.

618

: 00:33:10

Right?

619

: 00:33:12

Yeah.

620

: 00:33:12

Is it, I will say, I won't say it's

easier, but it has the potential

621

: 00:33:15

to be easier with ketamine because

you have that critical period

622

: 00:33:17

and you know, or neuroplastic.

623

: 00:33:19

So any kind of, uh, new ideas or

behaviors that you come in are more

624

: 00:33:22

likely to stick, whereas than getting

your formal ADHD diagnosis is, but we

625

: 00:33:28

don't have the, the additional help

of the neuroplasticity happening.

626

: 00:33:31

Um, yeah.

627

: 00:33:32

But yeah, I've seen, uh, actually

on both ends I've seen, um,

628

: 00:33:37

divorces happen, breakups happen,

uh, big changes across country.

629

: 00:33:41

So it really is, can be like, as

I said, quite, quite disruptive.

630

: 00:33:44

But, um, mm-hmm.

631

: 00:33:46

Any question with that?

632

: 00:33:48

Well, no, it's just, uh, we, I was

just more just thinking out loud.

633

: 00:33:50

I think it's just kind of

an interesting parallel.

634

: 00:33:52

I wouldn't have thought of it

necessarily being a parallel,

635

: 00:33:56

but I think it's obviously there.

636

: 00:33:58

Um, and yeah, I mean it's like, like,

like you're saying, I mean, we typically

637

: 00:34:02

would recommend that people not make

major decisions after having some kind

638

: 00:34:07

of like, you know, um, groundbreaking

kinds of experiences that way.

639

: 00:34:13

Um, but yeah, no, obviously there's more

of a sort of like a suddenness to it

640

: 00:34:17

if you're doing, you know, a, a series

of ketamine sessions or what have you.

641

: 00:34:22

Whereas the other with if you're

not, and it's more of just a learning

642

: 00:34:25

and a coaching and a, a gradual

process, maybe there, there's more

643

: 00:34:28

space to allow for more gradual

adjustments in, in integrations.

644

: 00:34:32

But one of the things that you had

mentioned that I was also kind of curious

645

: 00:34:35

about, and I think it's an important point

that maybe isn't discussed enough, is

646

: 00:34:40

this whole idea about the value that's.

647

: 00:34:43

Ascribed or, because I think

obviously we want to destigmatize

648

: 00:34:47

Neurodivergence, there's, there's

always value in destigmatizing, but then

649

: 00:34:51

we don't wanna go too far with that.

650

: 00:34:52

And sort of as you say, like

holding it up as like a superpower.

651

: 00:34:56

And so I like the idea of the neutrality

because one of the things that

652

: 00:35:00

I've seen, and I've heard that is a

challenge particularly for educators.

653

: 00:35:04

Is, um, where, you know, we don't, we

don't want, we don't want to be in a

654

: 00:35:10

situation where, when neurodivergent

people are being patronized, right?

655

: 00:35:13

Or they're being kind

of given a free pass.

656

: 00:35:17

you, you know what I'm saying?

657

: 00:35:18

Or that they don't have the, they don't

end kind of just even once or just sort

658

: 00:35:22

of like, look, I don't want, I don't want

people to take this the wrong way, but

659

: 00:35:25

it's not like, um, I'm not putting this

out there in a critical sense at all.

660

: 00:35:29

But we just also don't want there to

be this, this, potential for it to be

661

: 00:35:34

seen as almost like a crutch, right?

662

: 00:35:36

Where people are, are, are being

kind of, um, given an advantage

663

: 00:35:39

where they maybe don't need it or

it's not, it's not really, shouldn't

664

: 00:35:42

really be seen in that light.

665

: 00:35:43

Am I getting that correctly?

666

: 00:35:45

Yes.

667

: 00:35:46

Yeah, a hundred percent.

668

: 00:35:47

Um, and.

669

: 00:35:49

One, one point I wanna make on there

too is one of the reason I bring in

670

: 00:35:52

neutrality is, you know, if, if you

call neuro divergence a superpower,

671

: 00:35:56

then it's really invalidating the

struggles that folks have as well.

672

: 00:35:59

'cause it can be a terrible experience.

673

: 00:36:02

you know, people can't find jobs

and then they lose their house.

674

: 00:36:05

You know, it's, um, so I've always

tried careful with that language of, of

675

: 00:36:10

calling neurodivergence a superpower.

676

: 00:36:12

but the same thing too is we're,

because as, as you said, even,

677

: 00:36:17

uh, like that's still kind of

applying that pathology paradigm.

678

: 00:36:21

Like this person is different,

therefore they get extra

679

: 00:36:25

special treatment or something.

680

: 00:36:26

And that's not what it is.

681

: 00:36:26

We're just, I, I, I saw this, this,

um, visualization, it was like a

682

: 00:36:30

little illustration once about equality

and equity and there was different

683

: 00:36:34

people standing on trying to look

over a fence and this person had a

684

: 00:36:37

smaller block and this person had

a taller block and the taller block

685

: 00:36:40

person could see over the fence.

686

: 00:36:42

And so what we're really just doing

is just adding an extra block to the.

687

: 00:36:45

The other person so they can

see over the fence as well.

688

: 00:36:47

So we're just even evening the playing

field, um, is simply what it is.

689

: 00:36:51

Yeah, yeah, that's a great metaphor.

690

: 00:36:54

I really, uh, appreciate that for sure.

691

: 00:36:56

It makes me think as well of, you know,

in, in grade school, you know that

692

: 00:37:00

there are those sort of vocational

assessments and you would get matched

693

: 00:37:03

up with, oh yeah, this, you know,

based on your personality style, that

694

: 00:37:06

these are jobs that would probably

be something you'd be interested in.

695

: 00:37:10

And so again, it's an alignment issue

to a large extent, correct me if I'm

696

: 00:37:14

wrong, but it seems perhaps there are

certain types of vocations that people

697

: 00:37:21

can kind of maybe consider more than

others, or they, they might just mesh

698

: 00:37:24

with better based on 'cause it, because

it strikes me that, again, you know,

699

: 00:37:29

if it's more of a biologically based.

700

: 00:37:32

Issue then similar to sort of

personality style or what have you,

701

: 00:37:36

that there would probably be ways that

people can kind of get more insight

702

: 00:37:40

into themselves and sort of figure

out, okay, well yeah, I'm, I'm more

703

: 00:37:43

inclined to, in your own story, right?

704

: 00:37:45

When you had that aha moment in the

psychology courses and you were just sort

705

: 00:37:49

of really, um, it sounds like just, just

filled with that passion and interest.

706

: 00:37:53

Okay.

707

: 00:37:53

Yeah.

708

: 00:37:53

This is my vocation.

709

: 00:37:54

Right.

710

: 00:37:55

And so maybe if you don't mind just

explaining how in your clients and people

711

: 00:37:58

that you're teaching that you would sort

of use that same kind of approach in terms

712

: 00:38:03

of, you know, encouraging them to, you

know, uh, find the best alignment in terms

713

: 00:38:07

of what they're, you know, educational

and occupational pathway looks like.

714

: 00:38:13

Yeah.

715

: 00:38:13

Um, I will say it's tough.

716

: 00:38:14

I don't think I've ever seen any

neuro divergent person or someone with

717

: 00:38:17

ADHD have a linear, uh, looking path.

718

: 00:38:20

Very, very rarely actually

ever have I ever seen someone.

719

: 00:38:23

Who knew what from age five, they

wanted to be, you know, a doctor.

720

: 00:38:28

So it's usually about a lot of trial

and error and just trying things.

721

: 00:38:32

I do know, uh, this is a very

common, I, you know, I see this

722

: 00:38:35

probably in every single client case.

723

: 00:38:37

you know, folks with ADHD are so.

724

: 00:38:40

Need to be value aligned

with what they're doing.

725

: 00:38:43

Um, folks with ADHD typically

have a higher sense of justice.

726

: 00:38:47

and, you know, see a lot of folks with

ADHD, having some kind of, um, uh,

727

: 00:38:52

you know, passion either, you know,

working in their local community or

728

: 00:38:55

for animals or for the environment.

729

: 00:38:57

So that kind of aligning the, the

moral compass and doing work that,

730

: 00:39:02

excuse me, your values align with

your values is really important.

731

: 00:39:05

Mm-hmm.

732

: 00:39:06

So, um, but then, you know, we

have this, this challenge here.

733

: 00:39:09

If you love doing art and painting

every day, but you're not getting any

734

: 00:39:15

income and you can't support yourself.

735

: 00:39:17

So, you know, there's a little bit

of challenge there of, um, I think

736

: 00:39:19

there's this Japanese concept called

Ikigai where it's, like a Venn diagram

737

: 00:39:23

of what you love, what you're good

at, and, I think what makes money

738

: 00:39:27

and then what, Is good for the world.

739

: 00:39:30

Mm-hmm.

740

: 00:39:30

And so that's kinda a fun, uh, kinda

concept to play around with, to see,

741

: 00:39:35

you know, okay, these are things

I really feel passionate about.

742

: 00:39:37

Um, you know, what can I do for hours?

743

: 00:39:38

What is really lighting me up?

744

: 00:39:39

And then creating a lot of

that intrinsic motivation.

745

: 00:39:42

and then, okay, out of these

things, what's actually gonna

746

: 00:39:44

bring me some income right now?

747

: 00:39:46

You know?

748

: 00:39:46

So playing around with

tools like that, I think.

749

: 00:39:49

And then just some, I, I see often

that, uh, especially when I was

750

: 00:39:52

working with students, they would

just feel so overwhelmed, what

751

: 00:39:55

am I supposed to do with my life?

752

: 00:39:57

Like, it felt like this huge amount

of pressure and just normalize.

753

: 00:40:00

it's not gonna be always

easy for us to know.

754

: 00:40:03

We just have to try out different things.

755

: 00:40:05

Um, and our path that's just all

over the place, so similar to

756

: 00:40:08

mine, but I do think if you, um.

757

: 00:40:13

Keep at it.

758

: 00:40:13

We usually will find our place in life.

759

: 00:40:17

and I, I will say the majority

of my clients are doing

760

: 00:40:19

work that they really love.

761

: 00:40:21

they're entrepreneurs, they're working

at startups, really, uh, atypical types

762

: 00:40:26

of jobs where they can wear many hats.

763

: 00:40:27

It's very dynamic.

764

: 00:40:29

They are creative.

765

: 00:40:30

They're, maybe they're working with

people, but you know, they're kind

766

: 00:40:34

of accentuating and fitting a lot

of those ADHD traits, the ideation,

767

: 00:40:38

um, you know, especially professions

that match the ADHD energy levels.

768

: 00:40:43

We have pretty variable energy levels.

769

: 00:40:46

It's not, consistent.

770

: 00:40:48

So startups are great.

771

: 00:40:49

It's what I work at a startup

as well, so you can have short

772

: 00:40:51

bursts of, of energy and work.

773

: 00:40:53

Then sometimes you can

pull back for a while.

774

: 00:40:56

so yeah, if that gives any hope to any

young listeners, the large majority

775

: 00:41:00

of my, my ADHD clients have found

something they love and me included.

776

: 00:41:06

Awesome.

777

: 00:41:07

I love it.

778

: 00:41:07

That's so great.

779

: 00:41:08

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that like,

yeah, there's, again, there's something

780

: 00:41:11

that's kind of stifling and boring

about sort of the legacy path that you,

781

: 00:41:16

I mean, it's, I'm not knocking it, but

it's, it is like, it's just great to

782

: 00:41:18

know that there are alternatives, right?

783

: 00:41:20

Like the legacy pathway of, 'cause

I'm, I'm guilty, I'm guilty.

784

: 00:41:23

I don't know, that's not the right

term, but I guess I'm, I'm kind of,

785

: 00:41:26

I have regrets about having kind

of just gone through that linear.

786

: 00:41:29

Kind of pathway of, you know, grade

school, college, professional,

787

: 00:41:33

school career, blah, blah, blah.

788

: 00:41:34

Right?

789

: 00:41:35

And so now this, maybe this is part

of what the podcast is all about

790

: 00:41:38

too, in terms of trying to branch

out a little bit and taking the more

791

: 00:41:41

circuitous route through life that

I think is more adventurous, right?

792

: 00:41:44

It makes me think of

those old family circus.

793

: 00:41:47

Was it Family circus cartoons where

the kid would, you'd see the kid taking

794

: 00:41:50

the route all around town and doing all

these different kind of interesting.

795

: 00:41:53

Things.

796

: 00:41:54

That's great.

797

: 00:41:55

but yeah, no, thanks.

798

: 00:41:56

That's a very hopeful message.

799

: 00:41:57

And I do, I do really encourage people,

we'll put an image up of, or we'll put

800

: 00:42:02

at least a, a link to the Ikigai diagram.

801

: 00:42:05

'cause I think that's an amazing way of,

approaching how to balance your passion

802

: 00:42:10

projects with what's practical in life and

how to, how to structure things so that

803

: 00:42:15

you're hopefully helping others as well.

804

: 00:42:18

That's great.

805

: 00:42:19

I was curious, so I guess, you know,

we'll, we'll, we'll maybe take another

806

: 00:42:22

five, 10 minutes or so, but in, in

until then, do you wanna, is there

807

: 00:42:25

anything, like if you had, um, like a

wishlist, maybe if there's something

808

: 00:42:29

that you would wish that clinicians and

teachers or managers, um, understood

809

: 00:42:35

more about neurodivergence and ADHD,

um, you know, that could change things

810

: 00:42:42

for the better for, for those kinds

of people in their organizations.

811

: 00:42:45

Like what, what would be some

things that you would wish that they

812

: 00:42:47

would know or be able to kind of.

813

: 00:42:50

Understand better so that that

could equate with better, with

814

: 00:42:54

improvements in their systems.

815

: 00:42:57

Yeah, that's a great question.

816

: 00:42:58

I wish I prepared 'cause I would write

something really inspiring, but I'll

817

: 00:43:02

just riff off the top of my head.

818

: 00:43:04

I think one thing is just the

idea of leading with curiosity.

819

: 00:43:08

I always come back to that because

that is such a powerful tool in itself,

820

: 00:43:11

especially if you are a, a leader or

you know, a teacher educator, where

821

: 00:43:16

you're just, you know, trying to help

folks with neuro divergence because

822

: 00:43:19

asking questions is so illuminating.

823

: 00:43:22

and as I said before, every experience

from one neuro divergent person, the

824

: 00:43:25

next is gonna be wildly different.

825

: 00:43:26

So the best you can do is just ask,

you know, how do you work the best?

826

: 00:43:30

how do you think the best, how

do you to communicate the best?

827

: 00:43:32

and then you can start developing

your own patterns as well.

828

: 00:43:35

It's like, oh, I'm seeing this kind of

challenge come up a lot when I'm asking

829

: 00:43:37

questions to folks in this community.

830

: 00:43:39

you know, how can I support in that way?

831

: 00:43:42

and I do something I've noticed 'cause

I've worked with, medical doctors,

832

: 00:43:46

I've worked with some psychiatrists

and, some, some professors.

833

: 00:43:49

I promise it's not aimed at you.

834

: 00:43:50

there sometimes the tendency,

especially if we're very academically

835

: 00:43:54

trained, to kind of invalidate

the actual lived experience of the

836

: 00:43:58

individual you're talking to and kind

of think oh, I know best because I

837

: 00:44:02

have my PhD and I've been working

in this field for a very long time.

838

: 00:44:05

and so, so that could be a challenge,

but to kind of release some of that

839

: 00:44:10

and help that inform how to treat

or how to navigate the conversation.

840

: 00:44:14

But again, just really treat the

individual as, you know, an individual

841

: 00:44:18

complex kaleidoscope of experience.

842

: 00:44:20

Ask the questions, and then

you can kind of bring in,

843

: 00:44:23

bring in your other knowledge.

844

: 00:44:24

but I, I've seen.

845

: 00:44:25

Quite often this, this kind of

oh, I know best because I have the

846

: 00:44:30

theoretical academic knowledge, but

lived experience can be just as powerful.

847

: 00:44:34

and then I guess for any neurodivergent

folks who are listening, there is hope.

848

: 00:44:41

It can be really scary

and isolating experience.

849

: 00:44:43

I think I read somewhere that,

you know, we're in one of the most

850

: 00:44:46

hyperconnected times in human history,

but also reporting some of the most,

851

: 00:44:50

feelings of loneliness that we ever had.

852

: 00:44:52

And so community is so powerful

and it's actually my top tool in

853

: 00:44:55

my coaching toolkit is community.

854

: 00:44:57

So connecting with online groups or

if you're someone who's interested in

855

: 00:45:01

just how to better support the folks

in neuro diversions in your life,

856

: 00:45:04

Reddit groups or, discord groups or

just watching YouTube videos and,

857

: 00:45:09

Oh, I guess I'm talking about community,

aren't I Ready groups or discord groups

858

: 00:45:12

or just reaching out your local community?

859

: 00:45:14

There's usually meetup.com

860

: 00:45:16

I think sometimes has, has group meets and

things with no divergent folks in them.

861

: 00:45:20

and connecting with others who are you.

862

: 00:45:21

'cause that can help, kinda alleviate

those feelings of loneliness and

863

: 00:45:24

isolation and you can finally feel

seen and heard and understood and also

864

: 00:45:29

learn different kinds of strategies

and tips from other folks as well.

865

: 00:45:32

So community is so powerful.

866

: 00:45:34

So that is my one kind of

suggestion for folks who are

867

: 00:45:38

oh my gosh, where do I go next?

868

: 00:45:41

That's great.

869

: 00:45:42

Yeah.

870

: 00:45:42

That's so valuable.

871

: 00:45:43

Thanks for that.

872

: 00:45:44

And so maybe on that note, in terms of

where, where maybe you can explain where

873

: 00:45:48

can people find your more about your work?

874

: 00:45:51

where can they learn more about

sort of your projects or even maybe

875

: 00:45:54

even sign up to, to work with you?

876

: 00:45:57

Yes.

877

: 00:45:58

Okay.

878

: 00:45:58

So flown FLOWN.com

879

: 00:46:02

is Our, body doubling website

app, which is wonderful.

880

: 00:46:06

The large majority of our members

are neuro divergent, so lots

881

: 00:46:09

of folks with ADHD on there.

882

: 00:46:11

But within that, you can just find,

me as a coach in there as well.

883

: 00:46:15

So I do different kinds of workshops

for B2B for businesses to kinda come

884

: 00:46:19

in and help, leaders in that space

and employees kind of understand the

885

: 00:46:23

neurodivergence and how to create

systems to better support your neuro

886

: 00:46:26

divergent employees and team members.

887

: 00:46:28

and then I also have a course,

the next one's coming up in March.

888

: 00:46:32

so it's called the ADHD Mastery Program.

889

: 00:46:35

And it's essentially a culmination

of everything I've learned in the

890

: 00:46:39

last decade or so from all of the

different clients I've seen around

891

: 00:46:42

the world and my own experience, very

neuroscience informed IFS, CBT informed.

892

: 00:46:48

it's a six week program and it has

the kinda foundational approach as.

893

: 00:46:54

If we can understand what's happening

in our brains of, and we can better

894

: 00:47:00

inform, how to find the strategies

to help us navigate our lives.

895

: 00:47:04

And with the, it's very gamified so,

you know, living life on hard mode and

896

: 00:47:09

there's different levels and things.

897

: 00:47:10

'cause ADHD brains work best

when information is gamified.

898

: 00:47:13

so it's really fun.

899

: 00:47:13

I think this is my fifth one.

900

: 00:47:15

So if you look up ADHD mastery program,

at flown, you can find it there.

901

: 00:47:20

So I facilitate there.

902

: 00:47:21

I do my coaching, I do the

course and I do workshops.

903

: 00:47:24

So a variety of things.

904

: 00:47:25

And I love to connect on

LinkedIn, so you find me on there.

905

: 00:47:30

Awesome.

906

: 00:47:30

That's so great.

907

: 00:47:31

Thanks for summarizing all of that.

908

: 00:47:33

I'd really encourage everyone

to, to click on the links.

909

: 00:47:36

We'll have all of that in the show notes.

910

: 00:47:37

And yeah, just learn as much

as you can about Kit's Project.

911

: 00:47:41

It's just so great.

912

: 00:47:42

Yeah.

913

: 00:47:42

Thanks so much again, I really

appreciate the opportunity.

914

: 00:47:45

It's just been a great conversation.

915

: 00:47:47

thanks so much for sharing your story

and all of your projects with us.

916

: 00:47:51

I just think it's just,

yeah, it's so inspiring.

917

: 00:47:53

So thank you.

918

: 00:47:55

Thank you.

919

: 00:47:56

This is really fun.

920

: 00:47:56

I feel like I could keep talking to you

for another two hours, so thanks so much.

921

: 00:48:01

Yeah, you're welcome.

922

: 00:48:02

I mean, I just, I'm so glad because

this conversation, I thought it

923

: 00:48:05

really highlighted something really

important, and that is the focus and

924

: 00:48:09

attention isn't about forcing ourselves

to become something that we're not.

925

: 00:48:14

It's, it's about better understanding

our own nervous systems that, you

926

: 00:48:18

know, that we already have and

that we need to just respect and,

927

: 00:48:22

and, and be, be proud of, right.

928

: 00:48:24

And be and say like, this is me.

929

: 00:48:26

And it's more about maybe designing

our lives accordingly and asking.

930

: 00:48:30

Asking the outside world

to be better aligned.

931

: 00:48:32

Not maybe not asking it, but just

trying to figure out a way to integrate,

932

: 00:48:35

to have that alignment be improved.

933

: 00:48:38

Yes.

934

: 00:48:39

Yep.

935

: 00:48:39

Absolutely.

936

: 00:48:41

That's awesome.

937

: 00:48:41

So again, for viewers and listeners,

so Kit Slocum, has joined us today.

938

: 00:48:46

She brings a rare combination

of neuroscience lived experience

939

: 00:48:49

and genuine compassion to a space

that too often runs on things like

940

: 00:48:54

shame and unrealistic expectations.

941

: 00:48:57

And so if you've ever felt like your

brain was the problem, I hope this

942

: 00:49:00

conversation offers a different story,

one that's inspiring and rooted in

943

: 00:49:04

understanding safety and agency.

944

: 00:49:07

So again, you'll find links

to kits work and flown.

945

: 00:49:10

That's again FLOWN.com

946

: 00:49:13

in the show notes.

947

: 00:49:15

and again, if this episode resonated.

948

: 00:49:17

Share it with someone you know that,

you know, maybe that also you worry

949

: 00:49:21

has been living life on hard mode.

950

: 00:49:23

and that, you know, they may also

get some, benefit from this kind

951

: 00:49:27

of information and connecting

with Kit and her program.

952

: 00:49:29

So again, kit, thank you so much

for the work that you're doing and

953

: 00:49:32

thanks again for a great conversation.

954

: 00:49:34

Yeah, thank you.

955

: 00:49:36

Okay.

956

: 00:49:36

Take care.

957

: 00:49:37

All the best.

958

: 00:49:38

Bye.