Fear, Purpose, and the Pursuit of Meaning: An Emergency Medicine Physician's Philosophy on Life - Dr. Dana Cowles - Feb 7, 2026 - #40

Speaker: 00:00:05

Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Michael Passmore, clinical

associate professor in the Department

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of Psychiatry at the University of

British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.

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The Neurostimulation podcast is

all about exploring the world of

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neuroscience, clinical neurostimulation,

interventional mental health.

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We talk to leaders in the

field, researchers, clinicians.

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We look at how neuroscience works,

the latest research breakthroughs, and

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how that research is being translated

into real world treatments that

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can improve health and wellbeing.

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This podcast is separate from my clinical

and academic roles and is part of my

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personal effort to bring neuroscience

education to the general public.

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Accordingly.

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I would like to emphasize that the

information shared in this podcast is

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for educational purposes only and is not

intended as medical advice or a substitute

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for professional medical guidance.

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Today I had a really interesting

conversation with Dr.

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Dana Cowles.

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Dr.

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Cowles is an emergency room physician

with a background in philosophy and

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he has experience as well in the

field working as an EMT volunteer.

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It was a really interesting conversation.

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We touched on topics that range

from medical, trauma, life trauma.

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I would just put out there as a

trigger warning that there were some

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pretty heavy topics that we discussed

and some pretty graphic images.

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So if you're sensitive to that

kind of thing, just be forewarned.

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Um, but I think it is worthwhile to listen

or watch the episode because of how Dr.

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Cowles really brings an approach that

is, uh, an approach that's instilled

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with wisdom and, uh, helps us to really

look at how we can take these challenging

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experiences, traumatic experiences

grow through them, and with awareness,

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translate that into helping others

and to improving our own lives and

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helping us to appreciate the importance

of seeking purpose and meaning in

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life as opposed to chasing happiness.

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So please do stay tuned.

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I think you're gonna

really enjoy this episode.

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It was a fascinating conversation and

I think you're gonna appreciate it.

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Welcome back to the

Neurostimulation Podcast.

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My guest today is Dr.

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Dana Cowles, a board certified emergency

medicine physician with a dual academic

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background in biology and philosophy.

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Dana's career has placed him at the

intersection of medicine, dealing

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with fear, stressful situations,

helping people and really getting

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into the philosophy of life and deeper

considerations about the human experience.

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Working on the front lines of emergency

care and thinking deeply about important

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things like suffering, anxiety, and what

these things bring in terms of purpose

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and meaning to lives and what they

actually teach us about how to live.

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Rather than chasing easy answers, his

work and life really do reflect a long

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engagement with hard questions about

things like mortality, courage, and the

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unintended consequences of the goals

that our society tends to promote.

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So Dana, really looking

forward to the conversation.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Well thanks.

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Thanks for having me.

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Maybe you can, introduce yourself

to viewers and listeners and tell us

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a little bit about your background

and your story before we kind

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of get into more of the details.

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Absolutely.

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so I am an emergency room physician

and I've worked in emergency medicine

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for almost the last 20 years, and

I've worked primarily in the, New York

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State and Florida markets, and I've

centered around the Orlando region.

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And, before that I attended St.

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John's University in Queens, New York.

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And that kind of got me started.

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Uh, they told me while I was going

to school that I could get a free

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EMT license as long as I volunteered

and I was too broke to pay attention.

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So if it's free, gimme three.

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Right.

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And, uh, that started

me on quite a journey.

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Amazing.

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Yeah, thanks for that intro.

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So, when people hear emergency

medicine physician, you know, typically

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they'll imagine, you know, what they

see on TV shows like ER and House.

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You know, they'll often

imagine chaos and adrenaline.

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So how accurate is that image?

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Well, I, I would say that out of

the different shows, The Pitt,

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the most recent one is the most

accurate, but it's very compressed.

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So they actually have five, writers

that are emergency room physicians,

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who handle particularly the cases.

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And so each of the cases that they

talk about is things that we've seen,

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uh, things that we've gone through,

not all in one shift, if that happens,

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people will be quit left and right.

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It's a little too much.

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But, yeah, it, it goes through a lot

of the accuracy of the medical practice

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and kind of that stutter step chaos.

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Uh, the inaccuracy of it though

is the franticness of it.

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So I always try to tell people

if I'm doing my job right, it

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looks like I'm hardly working.

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and we're busy moving from place

to place and things to things,

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but we're not running around

with our hands over our heads.

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And, you know, you try to act like

you've been there before and there is a

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lot of mundane mixed in with the chaos.

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but you never know what's

coming around the door.

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And it depends on which

shop you're working in.

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Some are more chaotic than

others and there's a lot of

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overuse of the emergency room.

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So people will come in with very small

complaints, uh, wanting convenience

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care more so than emergent care.

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And then you can turn around and have

to deal with something chaotic that

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can happen in spur of the moment.

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Yeah.

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How do you handle the uncertainty?

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Because obviously as you say, the

importance of protocol and, and,

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and having, you know, algorithms

in place to just make sure that

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things don't get missed must be

critically important in that setting.

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But then it must be also challenging

to deal with the uncertainty.

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On the one hand, there's that wide

spectrum from the very mundane, as you

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say, you know, perhaps sometimes, you

know, patients who you think probably

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would be better off at a walk-in clinic

or with their family or their NP or

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family doc versus the, the, you know, you

never really know what's, what's around

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the corner in terms of the potential

for a very stressful, chaotic, or,

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you know, traumatic kind of situation.

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Yeah.

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One of the things that I've.

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I've been helped with, was I got my

pilot's license early on while I was

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in medical school, and they have a

mantra, and it's a BA communicate,

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navigate, and I said that wrong.

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It's a BA navigate, communicate.

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So you need to start

out, fly the airplane.

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The second one is you need to navigate,

point it in the right direction, and

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then the third you start communicating.

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And so we use the same

ideal in emergency medicine.

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First, fly the plane.

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So first is take care of the person,

and you go back to the basics.

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Airway, breathing, circulation,

disability, go through the bottom line.

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If you don't know what to do with the

person altogether, you start there.

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And so everything gets focused down into.

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Base of priority.

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One of the bases of priority is and I tell

people that the one idea that we go to

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the doctor in an hour and a half, get a

bunch of test results that tell us exactly

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what's going wrong is pure fiction.

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And a lot of times we're not

able to do that in medicine.

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What we do is risk stratification, right?

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So we try to see how safe or

unsafe a condition is and try to

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maximize the safety for people.

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That's why you control blood pressure or

you send somebody for a colonoscopy or

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these kind of things, do a skin biopsy

because you're trying to keep them safe.

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And I tell the students in

residents that all the time that

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keep that as your general focus.

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Mm-hmm.

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Keep people safe.

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So if you have to go and tell

them, listen, your CAT scan is

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negative, I'm not sure exactly

what's causing your belly pain.

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Is one thing, but make sure that they're

safe and the only thing that they will

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ever hate you for, and will make your

life miserable for is one basic principle.

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You told someone they were safe

when they weren't, and that's where

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in the United States, especially

the litigation comes from.

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You told someone they were

safe when they weren't right.

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Right.

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Yeah, that's very helpful

to boil it down to that.

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And it also brings a real, connection and

a, and a humanistic perspective for sure.

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And, and, and that's, that's

the bottom line as you're

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describing and connected to that.

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I thought it might be interesting if

you don't mind telling us a little

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bit about some of your earlier life

experiences in some of your writings.

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I understand that you've shared about,

uh, quite a significant car accident

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when you were younger, and I'm curious

how that particular experience might

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have changed your own internal world

and perhaps gave you some of an impetus

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to follow the kind of vocational

path that you ended up following.

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Well, when I was 12 years old, we

were actually going to church on a

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Sunday morning, and this was before

seat belts were heavily impressed,

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And I was in a minivan and I was

sitting in the back, facing the back.

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So I was in the middle seat on my

knees facing the back, and I could

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tell you what particular cartoons I

was reading outta the Sunday paper.

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it's funny when you look back and

you're like, this was the Calvin

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Hobbes in the far side, the specific

ones that you were looking at.

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Yeah.

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And it just out, out of nowhere when

all of a sudden you have the sounds

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and that screeching tires and all of a

sudden things go into very slow motion.

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And I was thrown from the side of

that chair, that bench, and there's

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a handle that opens the sliding

door, and that came and hit me

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straight in the side of the chest.

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And then I was.

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What I thought was the ground, but I

was looking at my sister who was in

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a car seat and her hands straight up

and her hair straight up in the air.

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So I knew I was actually

on the roof of the car.

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And then I come back down to the floor

of it, And the weird thing is, is that

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you get into these stop patterns of,

my first thought was, uh, the, A team,

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because the, A team in every single

episode, they had a car that flipped over.

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Mm.

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And that's what happened here.

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And my uncle was ejected out of the

side window and he was out on the street

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and another car had hit ours right

afterwards coming around the corner

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and just missed his head by that much.

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And, um.

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My sister, older sister, she had sat

up and she leaned her face onto the

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seat that I was sitting on, and she

had a very large cut all down her face,

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and the skin just kind of sagged out

and I could see the skull underneath.

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And so, you know, that, that changed

a lot of perspective in my life,

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right in that flash of a minute.

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And it's, you know.

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The thought process is

it don't work correctly.

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You know, my mother had asked me

to take my shirt off so that I

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could, she could use something

to put pressure onto that cut.

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And I just remember being so

inconvenienced 'cause it was raining out,

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and why do I have to give up my shirt?

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Like, it's unfair,

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part of it is being 12 years

old and part of it's just the

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sheer chaos of that trauma.

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Yeah.

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And the thing that I learned from that

entire incident, which I will tell

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you, no one was killed that day, but it

wasn't for a lack of trying, and, so.

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The one thing that I learned from that is

this idea that the only thing we have to

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fear is fear itself is complete nonsense.

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and I tell people this, if you don't

believe me, go walk down in downtown

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Jamaica, Queens at two o'clock in

the morning and tell me if the only

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thing you have to fear is fear.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or talk to these veterans who have

been in war and ask if the only

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thing to fear is fear, And the,

what I learned from that day is

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that the real enemy is helplessness.

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we need to build a skillset throughout our

lifetime to be able to face helplessness.

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And that in the emergency room is

one of the biggest factors because

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people will tell me about things

that they're afraid of, and they've

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been afraid of their entire lifetime.

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And I ask 'em, well, what's your plan?

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Mm.

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if that were to happen,

what would you be doing?

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And short of coming to see

me, it, it turns out a lot

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of times they have no plan.

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Mm-hmm.

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And they have no answer.

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and my viewpoint on it is, is that that's

what we're doing in life altogether,

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is we're just building skill sets.

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Mm-hmm.

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To be able to face that helplessness.

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Yeah.

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So if we have a do not resuscitate

order, if we have a living will or

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proxy, those are all plans for what

to do at end of life, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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When we deal with fire drills in schools,

that's what we're doing is developing

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a plan, what if this situation happens?

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Mm-hmm.

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And I think it's important that

we all have our plans for what

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is making us most nervous in life

and to have our parachutes right.

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You know?

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And so one of the things that I've

done, even now, I've got a good,

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steady job, uh, but I go on interviews.

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You know, and I'll talk to people and

they say, well, why do you want this job?

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And I'll be quite frank with them.

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I don't really, I'm not in need of a job.

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I have a perfectly good job, but I

like to know the network and I like to

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know other shops around and the people

who are running them and whether I

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would like to work for that person.

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And if something happened where

I'm working or I wanted to

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change, who am I gonna call?

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Who's in my phone?

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Right.

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And so I try to make sure that I

have that established and I find that

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you can fly a lot higher if you have

that parachute, if you know, okay,

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if everything goes bad, this is who

I'm gonna call and what I'm gonna do.

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But make sure you have that plan.

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Yeah, that's really,

that's so interesting.

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and, yeah, it reminds me of

this idea about helplessness.

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It reminds me of what, um, Dr.

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Paul Conte writes about, um, you

know, he's an expert on trauma and

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helping people recover from trauma.

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And, uh, you know, part of what

he emphasizes is the importance

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of agency as well as meaning.

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And so mm-hmm.

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By agency it's, as you say, you

know, what's your plan, what's your

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plan in order to try to be able to

control a situation and, um, and,

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and gain agency in terms of decision

making, in terms of influencing the

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direction that things are gonna go in.

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Very similar to the, the

piloting metaphor, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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As, as far as you're, you're, uh, you're

flying the plane metaphor for sure.

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So do you think, so, so when it comes to

that kind of thing, in your experience,

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do you think that most people are trying

to avoid fear or helplessness, or is the

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fear a consequence of their helplessness?

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Or how does that go?

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Well.

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Essentially, medicine has done a

huge disservice to people by treating

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fear and anxiety as a disease.

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Mm.

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And we all know that a disease is a

broken part of the system that a few

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people have, like cancer or diabetes.

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Fear and anxiety is

something that everybody has.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, it's part of

the human condition.

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It's provi, it's part

of our survival skill.

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Yeah.

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You know, and how we

handle it or deal with it.

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We have in medicine, since about

the mid 18 hundreds, everybody's

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taken this perspective of, if it's

uncomfortable, it should go away.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, you should

treat your way out of it.

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You should, you know, try to avoid

it at all costs, and people will take

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comfort over purpose all the time.

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And the thing is that if I ask people

what's the opposite of depression, they'll

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tell me happiness and I let them know.

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That's a lot of marketing propaganda, you

know, uh, the opposite of depression is

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purpose, and purpose is what keeps you up

and going, but fear and anxiety itself is

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a sense that something is going to change.

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And the one thing that I've found is

that the people who have the most anxiety

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in life are very empathetic people, and

they are aware of the circumstances and

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the situations of people around them.

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And it's almost like they're

carrying that burden, you know?

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So they don't want to step on other

people or they're anxious about

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talking to person, or you know,

how they're going to influence or

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impact other people around them.

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And they carry that all inside, you know?

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And the one thing that I let

people know is that everything

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in life comes at a cost.

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And you need to know that cost

and be willing to pay it, or

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you're gonna accrue interest.

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And if you're not paying it, or

accruing interest means someone is

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taking care of it for you and they

will eventually get tired and stop.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know?

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And so that's not just financial,

that works with emotion, that

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works in life in general.

311

: 00:17:19

And so like imagine when you're, you

know, uh, angry and you don't want to deal

312

: 00:17:25

with it because you don't wanna ruin a

relationship or you know it's in proper

313

: 00:17:29

time, so you just kind of bottle it up.

314

: 00:17:32

Well, when that happens,

you're accruing interest.

315

: 00:17:35

So then when you get

angry, it's an explosion.

316

: 00:17:38

It's fury, it's rage, you know, that

was all the interest that was accrued.

317

: 00:17:43

If you have a sense that things are about

to change, causing you some anxiety,

318

: 00:17:49

and you don't learn to use that as a

tool, and you try to just ward it away

319

: 00:17:54

or medicate it away or do those kind

of things, you're gonna incur interest.

320

: 00:17:58

You know?

321

: 00:17:58

And if you're accruing interest, then

it's gonna be a phobia or paralyzing

322

: 00:18:04

fear, and then you stop moving, you know?

323

: 00:18:07

Um, so I have learned over time that

that fear you need to use as a tool.

324

: 00:18:13

And that tool means you need

to slow down and pay attention.

325

: 00:18:16

Mm.

326

: 00:18:17

And there's actually three types of fear.

327

: 00:18:19

You know, one is the anticipatory

fear, that's the what ifs.

328

: 00:18:23

What if this is gonna happen

or what if that's gonna happen?

329

: 00:18:26

And the anticipatory fear, the

way you need to handle that is to

330

: 00:18:29

make a plan and trust that plan.

331

: 00:18:33

You can rework it your entire lifetime

if you don't trust it, you know.

332

: 00:18:37

But, uh, I, I was working in

New York City prior to nine 11.

333

: 00:18:43

I felt a lot of angst, I guess

you would say, because I wasn't

334

: 00:18:49

in the city when it happened.

335

: 00:18:50

And it's almost like, you know, it

happened in your own neighborhood.

336

: 00:18:54

Mm-hmm.

337

: 00:18:54

So when I was facing that kind of thing, I

knew a lot of the people that were there,

338

: 00:19:00

and I asked them about the experience when

they went to ground zero in the moment.

339

: 00:19:06

And they said, well, you don't

understand when all that chaos

340

: 00:19:10

happens, the rules go out the window.

341

: 00:19:13

And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

342

: 00:19:15

The rules, the plan, the MCI drill was put

into place specifically for those times.

343

: 00:19:21

But the main characteristic is you

have to trust that plan, you know?

344

: 00:19:25

And if you don't trust it, then

it gets thrown out the window.

345

: 00:19:28

Mm-hmm.

346

: 00:19:29

So the same in the emergency room,

people will have a DNR or you know,

347

: 00:19:34

do not resuscitate order, and if

their family member starts dying.

348

: 00:19:39

Then all of a sudden they say, no, no, no.

349

: 00:19:41

I'm, I'm changing my mind.

350

: 00:19:42

I don't want it.

351

: 00:19:44

And the problem there is

you didn't trust the plan.

352

: 00:19:46

Mm-hmm.

353

: 00:19:46

You know, thi this is a person

saying, this is what I would

354

: 00:19:49

want in that circumstance.

355

: 00:19:50

But emotionally now, because you don't

trust the plan, you're changing it.

356

: 00:19:53

Mm-hmm.

357

: 00:19:54

You know, and you can change your

plan at any time in life, you know,

358

: 00:19:58

but whatever you land on at any

given time, you have to trust it.

359

: 00:20:03

The second type of fear

is the contemporary fear.

360

: 00:20:06

This is like the car accident.

361

: 00:20:07

This will hit you out of nowhere.

362

: 00:20:09

You know, it wasn't

something you saw coming.

363

: 00:20:12

And that kind of fear, it means you

need to slow down and pay attention.

364

: 00:20:17

Your body will even do that for you

when you get the adrenaline surged.

365

: 00:20:21

That's exactly what happens, is everything

slows down, everything almost freezes.

366

: 00:20:27

And the problem is, is that

when people are feeling fear and

367

: 00:20:31

anxiety, they wanna rush, they want

to speed up, it's uncomfortable.

368

: 00:20:34

So I want to get through it, which is the

exact opposite of what you want to do.

369

: 00:20:38

You know, so recently my kids had

to give a speech in front of their

370

: 00:20:42

entire school, and they do it once a

year, you know, and so they prepared,

371

: 00:20:47

they prepared, they prepared.

372

: 00:20:48

And then when they got

there, they didn't trust it.

373

: 00:20:51

And so when they felt the anxiety,

all of a sudden they sped up

374

: 00:20:55

and they were talking, you know?

375

: 00:20:57

And I was like, blah, blah blue.

376

: 00:20:58

I didn't understand a

word you said, you know?

377

: 00:21:01

And so you need to be able to take that

moment to be able to slow down and really

378

: 00:21:06

pay attention to what you're doing,

because we drone through a lot in life.

379

: 00:21:09

Mm-hmm.

380

: 00:21:10

Yeah.

381

: 00:21:10

The third type of fear is the

retrospective fear, you know, which

382

: 00:21:13

is the PTSD and things like that.

383

: 00:21:16

And I'm a firm believer that

that comes about because of

384

: 00:21:20

the feeling of helplessness.

385

: 00:21:21

You know, you lost somebody, um, something

happened that was traumatic, and at

386

: 00:21:26

the moment, even if you had training,

you felt like you were helpless.

387

: 00:21:29

You know, this is why people who come

back from war and they've lost a companion

388

: 00:21:35

or something like that, they had a

lot of training, they should have been

389

: 00:21:39

able to stop it, is the sense, right?

390

: 00:21:42

Mm-hmm.

391

: 00:21:42

And so the biggest way to treat that is

you need to change the retrospective fear

392

: 00:21:47

to a prospective fear again, and do the

all right, if this were to happen again.

393

: 00:21:52

Mm-hmm.

394

: 00:21:52

Or if I face this

situation, what's my plan?

395

: 00:21:55

What am I gonna do?

396

: 00:21:56

You know?

397

: 00:21:57

And that takes control of that

helplessness to be able to build

398

: 00:22:00

on it and be able to give some

purpose back to what happened.

399

: 00:22:06

Mm-hmm.

400

: 00:22:07

Yeah, no, that's very helpful

to break it down in that way.

401

: 00:22:10

And I'm curious, again, I mean,

your, your career is so interesting

402

: 00:22:14

because of the, the variety of

different roles and the EMT component

403

: 00:22:19

in particular is very interesting.

404

: 00:22:21

So you've got that experience

from, you know, in the field with

405

: 00:22:24

emergency care through to, in the er.

406

: 00:22:26

So I'm just curious, you know, do you, are

you comfortable talking a bit about some

407

: 00:22:30

of your more memorable experiences working

as an EMT in these high stress sorts of

408

: 00:22:36

environments that you're describing in,

in areas like Jamaica, Queens, and how

409

: 00:22:40

that has influenced the way that you

consider things like PTSD and that third

410

: 00:22:44

type of fear that you just described?

411

: 00:22:47

Sure.

412

: 00:22:47

Um, absolutely.

413

: 00:22:48

And I, I don't want to.

414

: 00:22:51

Overstate my experience in EMS.

415

: 00:22:53

Um, I am a complete rookie in it,

you know, um, very familiar with it.

416

: 00:22:59

And, you know, the, when I worked in

Jamaica, Queens, I was volunteering

417

: 00:23:03

because, you know, that was the

way to get the free license.

418

: 00:23:07

And they have, the fire department in New

York handles a lot of the 9 1 1 calls.

419

: 00:23:11

So the volunteer organizations would

kind of be a backup role, assistance,

420

: 00:23:16

you know, and that kind of thing.

421

: 00:23:17

So, you know, we helped out with

quite a bit, and especially the

422

: 00:23:21

bigger events that would happen.

423

: 00:23:23

Um, and you'd also station yourself

into small areas of the city.

424

: 00:23:29

So in a place like New York City, you

have a zone that you work in, you know,

425

: 00:23:34

which will be only a few blocks big.

426

: 00:23:37

Uh, so you get to know a lot of

the people there, and that becomes

427

: 00:23:40

almost your microcosm, you know?

428

: 00:23:42

And so I, you know, I remember.

429

: 00:23:46

Going into one of my first, uh, weeks

that I was there, uh, there was a

430

: 00:23:51

shooting call and it was at a seven 11.

431

: 00:23:55

And this was in the northern

part of Jamaica, Queens.

432

: 00:23:58

And the guy that was working

there was wearing a suit.

433

: 00:24:01

And I was terrified, absolutely

terrified to go there.

434

: 00:24:05

And, you know, the, um, lieutenant that I

was working with at the time, he told me,

435

: 00:24:12

there's nothing to be scared of here, son.

436

: 00:24:14

You know, he goes, uh, the

only people that'll be there

437

: 00:24:17

with guns will be the cops.

438

: 00:24:19

Most of the shootings happen in

less than 90 seconds and less than

439

: 00:24:22

three feet away from each other.

440

: 00:24:24

You know, and then they

scatter like cockroaches.

441

: 00:24:26

So he is like, there's not

gonna be anybody else there

442

: 00:24:29

with guns except for the cops.

443

: 00:24:31

Hmm.

444

: 00:24:31

And I went there and this man is

shot in the leg and he is laying on

445

: 00:24:35

the ground, and he is just saying,

I, I can't believe they shot me.

446

: 00:24:40

I can't believe they shot me.

447

: 00:24:41

Hmm.

448

: 00:24:42

And I was looking around and first

and only thought came out loud.

449

: 00:24:46

I was like, where's all the blood?

450

: 00:24:48

You know, I'm, I'm expecting TV

style, pool of blood around and

451

: 00:24:55

you know, this would be fatal.

452

: 00:24:56

You know, things like that.

453

: 00:24:58

And none of that's the case, you

know, and especially because the

454

: 00:25:03

bullet is hot and cauterizes as

is spinning and things like that.

455

: 00:25:06

Unless you're hitting major structures

or blood vessels, uh, there can be

456

: 00:25:10

relatively little or no blood, you know?

457

: 00:25:13

And so later through that night,

you know, they, um, had 20 more

458

: 00:25:20

shooting calls and I guess the group

that this man was associated with

459

: 00:25:25

had found the person that did it.

460

: 00:25:27

Found his family, found his

friends, found everybody around him.

461

: 00:25:32

And I thought the world was coming

to an end because we were just going

462

: 00:25:36

from call after call after call

and they were mobilizing all this.

463

: 00:25:39

And I had called my father at one point

in the night and I said, turn on the news.

464

: 00:25:44

It is complete chaos here.

465

: 00:25:47

You know how many made the news zero?

466

: 00:25:50

Yeah.

467

: 00:25:51

None.

468

: 00:25:52

Mm-hmm.

469

: 00:25:52

And that was the first time that

I learned about how politicized

470

: 00:25:56

the news actually is, you know?

471

: 00:25:58

And if it's, if it's not something that

they can make a political statement

472

: 00:26:02

or motive out of, you know, it's,

it's just not gonna get any airtime.

473

: 00:26:07

And the second one, uh, was also

within the first couple of months

474

: 00:26:13

of me starting, we had a, um, called

to a place, FCH Park in Queens.

475

: 00:26:19

And they were having a Bible, uh.

476

: 00:26:22

Uh, like a revival underneath a tent.

477

: 00:26:24

And there was a storm brewing

through and I guess they weren't

478

: 00:26:26

aware of it or didn't care.

479

: 00:26:28

I'm not sure what, but there was

200 people onto this tent and the

480

: 00:26:33

tent had blown over and people

started to stampede, you know.

481

: 00:26:38

And so we got called for a mass

casualty incident for that.

482

: 00:26:41

And we, when we get there, I'm a basic

EMT, you know, I can do some things,

483

: 00:26:48

but some are right beyond me, right?

484

: 00:26:52

And so the other guy I was working with

was driving and they wanted me in the

485

: 00:26:56

back and we go to this staging area

and they give me this next patient.

486

: 00:27:00

And it's this woman that has a big

blueprint across her neck and she's

487

: 00:27:04

going and trying to breathe and

she's just not getting any air in.

488

: 00:27:10

And I looked, other than doing a oral

pharyngeal airway, which wouldn't help,

489

: 00:27:15

you know, it's almost like putting

a tongue depressor in their mouth.

490

: 00:27:19

Um.

491

: 00:27:20

I, I just looked at her and I

said, I'm not sure what to do.

492

: 00:27:24

And the guy that was there at the

staging area goes, let me help you.

493

: 00:27:29

There's a smaller pedal on the right.

494

: 00:27:31

Okay.

495

: 00:27:32

Hitting go right.

496

: 00:27:34

Get her to the hospital.

497

: 00:27:36

You know, so it's, it's those kind of

things that made a huge impression,

498

: 00:27:42

like right in the beginning.

499

: 00:27:45

But I had a lot of bitter distaste for it

too because, um, once I had started out,

500

: 00:27:52

I actually went to class with two girls.

501

: 00:27:55

One of them, it was Barbara

and Theresa and Barbara.

502

: 00:27:59

Um, you know, they had asked me to give

her a ride because I was in Queens.

503

: 00:28:03

We were going out to Long Island.

504

: 00:28:04

They didn't have the transportation.

505

: 00:28:06

And I was going anyway,

there was no problem.

506

: 00:28:08

And we became friends as a result

of it, and we were working together.

507

: 00:28:12

And, um, Barbara had gone to, uh.

508

: 00:28:16

Work with me one night

and she got off work.

509

: 00:28:18

We got off work at 10 o'clock or so, and

then we had to clean up and everything.

510

: 00:28:23

So she left at about 11 and at around

twelve fifteen, twelve thirty, there

511

: 00:28:28

was a phone call to nine one one that

said, somebody is breaking into my place.

512

: 00:28:33

Hmm.

513

: 00:28:33

And shortly thereafter, um, they, uh, I,

I don't know what happened and I don't

514

: 00:28:41

know the details of it, but the police

had said that it was an unfounded call

515

: 00:28:44

that there was nobody in the place.

516

: 00:28:46

And then at five o'clock in the

morning they get called back out for a

517

: 00:28:50

gunshot, you know, and they found her

dead with a gunshot wound to the head.

518

: 00:28:54

And it really unraveled a lot of

things, you know, because it was

519

: 00:28:59

like that sense of helplessness comes

pouring back in, you know, and things.

520

: 00:29:03

And, and I tried to.

521

: 00:29:06

Warded away.

522

: 00:29:07

And I tried to push away that

sense of fear and anxiety and stuff

523

: 00:29:11

like that, because it's like, if

that could happen to her, why her?

524

: 00:29:14

Why not other people, if I go home to my

apartment, what's that gonna look like?

525

: 00:29:17

You know, why?

526

: 00:29:18

Why is she more unsafe than I am?

527

: 00:29:20

Or, you know, those kind

of things all hit you.

528

: 00:29:24

But in that pursuit of trying to get

rid of fear completely, you know,

529

: 00:29:28

I learned that fear is that tool,

and it's important, you know, the

530

: 00:29:34

only people who are truly fearless

are thoughtless or careless.

531

: 00:29:38

Mm-hmm.

532

: 00:29:38

You know, so when people tell me now,

you know, I'm nervous about working

533

: 00:29:43

in the emergency room, you know,

room, I'm, I'm scared of working here.

534

: 00:29:46

My answer is good.

535

: 00:29:47

Don't ever lose that.

536

: 00:29:49

You know it.

537

: 00:29:50

It's what's gonna keep you on your toes.

538

: 00:29:51

And it's what keeps you aware

of the situation around you.

539

: 00:29:55

And as we drone through things,

those things that make us

540

: 00:29:57

anxious, and they still do now,

there's chief complaints that.

541

: 00:30:00

Come up that I sit there and, you

know, I, I feel my shoulders tense.

542

: 00:30:05

I feel my heart going a little bit

faster, and I'm like, oh no, not this.

543

: 00:30:09

You know, and there's certain ones,

every provider has a trigger for

544

: 00:30:13

certain ones, you know, and then you

go in and slow down and pay attention.

545

: 00:30:18

You're moving more methodically in that

case than you would on a lot of the others

546

: 00:30:22

that you can see and clear pretty quickly.

547

: 00:30:24

And it's always paid off.

548

: 00:30:26

You know, those, it,

it's never been wrong.

549

: 00:30:28

You know, those cases that bring the

more anxiety are the ones that you need

550

: 00:30:32

to pay attention to more, you know?

551

: 00:30:34

Mm-hmm.

552

: 00:30:35

So learn to use that as a tool.

553

: 00:30:37

Right, right.

554

: 00:30:38

Yeah.

555

: 00:30:39

Well, thank you for explaining

and describing that.

556

: 00:30:41

I'm so sorry to hear about your

partner and what happened to her.

557

: 00:30:44

That's just awful.

558

: 00:30:45

I mean, it makes me think, you

know, for you and, and, and your

559

: 00:30:49

colleagues at the time, um, must

have been just so difficult.

560

: 00:30:53

And I, it, it also makes me wonder,

you know, to what extent do you

561

: 00:30:56

think that there is, and it's a broad

question, but like, how much unresolved

562

: 00:31:00

trauma do you think is, because it

strikes me that unresolved trauma

563

: 00:31:05

tends to be a really quiet, um, and

kind of hidden burden that exists in

564

: 00:31:11

most, most healthcare professionals.

565

: 00:31:13

And that, that they kind of quietly

carry it forward and just kind of

566

: 00:31:16

soldier on and just kind of like, they,

they assume that's part of the job and

567

: 00:31:19

they just have to kind of deal with it.

568

: 00:31:21

Um, maybe without much

support or no support.

569

: 00:31:24

It depends, I guess, on the

different kind of work environment

570

: 00:31:27

that someone finds themself in.

571

: 00:31:28

But what's your experience of that with

your own, you know, um, if you know

572

: 00:31:32

challenges as you're describing and, and

in, in terms of your work since then?

573

: 00:31:37

Well, I think that a lot of it is

being able to hone and focus it.

574

: 00:31:41

It's, it's not so much bearing it, it's

not trying to get away from it, you

575

: 00:31:46

know, but to just make it a part of you.

576

: 00:31:48

And I think one of the things that

people make a mistake of is that

577

: 00:31:53

they want to wipe the scar away.

578

: 00:31:55

You know?

579

: 00:31:55

They want to erase it like it's

clean or it never happened.

580

: 00:31:59

Mm-hmm.

581

: 00:31:59

You know, and that's, I think,

the only thing you can't do.

582

: 00:32:02

You can handle it any other

way, but you can't do that.

583

: 00:32:05

The scar's gonna be the scar.

584

: 00:32:06

It's gonna be there.

585

: 00:32:07

And it's almost like you're

on a new platform in life.

586

: 00:32:10

You know, you're looking at things from

a different angle that you normally

587

: 00:32:13

wouldn't have looked at it, you know?

588

: 00:32:15

And that's a perspective that

you carry with you that I find

589

: 00:32:18

when I do that, you know, that's,

that's what gets you moving on.

590

: 00:32:22

And in the emergency room, that can be

one of the most difficult because you

591

: 00:32:25

can, you know, have a really bad case.

592

: 00:32:28

Like, and I would sit there and say

the worst, if people ask me the worst,

593

: 00:32:32

there's always a loss of a child.

594

: 00:32:34

And there is a primal scream from mothers,

you know, that is very, very distinctive.

595

: 00:32:40

It's, you know, you cannot mistake it.

596

: 00:32:43

And so you can even have a practitioner

who walks into an emergency room

597

: 00:32:47

and hears that and they'll look

around and say, who lost a child?

598

: 00:32:50

You know, that's, um, and then, you know,

to transition that to going to the next

599

: 00:32:56

patient, getting yelled at because they

had to wait because of their sore throat

600

: 00:33:00

or whatever it might be, you know, can

be a difficult transition, especially

601

: 00:33:04

like right in the moment, you know?

602

: 00:33:06

So it is important to take time for

yourself and things like that, but you

603

: 00:33:11

know, this kind of stuff is something

that you move forward from and that's

604

: 00:33:16

why I advocate for people to utilize each

of those instances as the what if, what.

605

: 00:33:23

Could have been done differently or

should have been done differently.

606

: 00:33:26

If I see this case again,

what would I do differently?

607

: 00:33:30

Yeah.

608

: 00:33:30

You know, and the one thing to

understand about that is that,

609

: 00:33:35

you know, things will happen even

if you do absolutely everything.

610

: 00:33:38

Right.

611

: 00:33:39

You know, so you'll have those cases

that come in that, or a situation that

612

: 00:33:43

happens in life and the short answer

of what could I have done differently

613

: 00:33:47

or should I have done differently?

614

: 00:33:49

And the answer is nothing.

615

: 00:33:50

You know, you did everything you could.

616

: 00:33:52

You did everything right and it just,

you know, you're not gonna win that day.

617

: 00:33:57

Yeah.

618

: 00:33:57

But that doesn't mean you

don't face it the next time.

619

: 00:34:00

And you know that feeling that you

have from it, you can't ward it off.

620

: 00:34:05

You have to pay that cost.

621

: 00:34:07

And so maybe you don't deal with it

internally right in the moment, you know?

622

: 00:34:12

But if you don't deal with it soon,

it's just gonna keep accruing interest

623

: 00:34:16

or somebody is paying for it for you

and they will get tired and stop.

624

: 00:34:19

And I've seen a lot of

practitioners do that.

625

: 00:34:22

You know, they come home and

they unload on their spouse or.

626

: 00:34:25

You know, they put their burdens

onto other people with their

627

: 00:34:29

manifestation of their moods

or, you know, things like that.

628

: 00:34:32

Not even talking about the case.

629

: 00:34:34

But, you know, if you go home and treat

your wife really coldly because you don't

630

: 00:34:38

want to talk at all, you know, then she's

gonna be carrying the burden for you.

631

: 00:34:43

You know, and she will eventually

get tired and stop and be like,

632

: 00:34:46

I can't, I can't live like this.

633

: 00:34:47

You know?

634

: 00:34:49

And that's why I tell people too,

the number one thing, uh, two

635

: 00:34:54

things that people really need outta

life is security and affirmation.

636

: 00:34:58

They need to know everything's gonna

be okay, and they need to know they're

637

: 00:35:00

a good person for doing it, you know?

638

: 00:35:02

And if you're in an argument, if you're

in a fight or something else is happening.

639

: 00:35:07

Then one of those two is lacking, and if

you give it to them, the fight's over.

640

: 00:35:13

Right?

641

: 00:35:14

And so maybe you're trying to get

your point across, or you're trying

642

: 00:35:17

to do whatever, but you're not giving

the affirmation of acknowledging, you

643

: 00:35:21

know, the other person that you're

talking to, they feel disrespected.

644

: 00:35:25

That's going to cut at their

affirmation and it's gonna be a

645

: 00:35:29

problematic issue in the relationship.

646

: 00:35:32

Sure.

647

: 00:35:32

So if you know you come and, and

aren't dealing with these things

648

: 00:35:38

appropriately, and providing the security

and affirmation for the other people

649

: 00:35:42

around you as well, they're going

to be carrying that burden for you.

650

: 00:35:46

Mm-hmm.

651

: 00:35:47

You know, so you have to kind of dance

that a little bit and understand that you

652

: 00:35:51

were there for the trauma, they weren't.

653

: 00:35:54

Mm-hmm.

654

: 00:35:54

You know, and it's not.

655

: 00:35:56

Fair in a lot of sense to

bring them into it, you know?

656

: 00:36:00

Mm-hmm.

657

: 00:36:00

So, for sure.

658

: 00:36:01

Yeah, for sure.

659

: 00:36:02

Absolutely.

660

: 00:36:03

I mean, it makes me think of this

important idea that, as you say, maybe

661

: 00:36:07

not, not to focus in on, um, trying to get

rid of the scar per se, but just looking

662

: 00:36:13

at the concept of the wounded healer and

how do, how do those experiences help to

663

: 00:36:18

improve your ability to empathize or your

ability to, to provide the healthcare

664

: 00:36:23

with that kind of, um, you know, broadened

experience and wisdom, I suppose?

665

: 00:36:28

Um, because, yeah, I mean, I think

it's, uh, again, as you say, if it, if

666

: 00:36:33

it comes down to even how it affects

your relationship, just having some

667

: 00:36:36

emotional intelligence and awareness

in terms of how you're coping with

668

: 00:36:40

that in a, in a not a healthy way is

gonna affect the people that are close

669

: 00:36:44

to you and, and, um, that's gonna

cause that kind of collateral damage.

670

: 00:36:48

Right.

671

: 00:36:48

Because even with that, you

know, that makes me think of, um.

672

: 00:36:52

Something like Imago therapy and

relationships and how they talk about

673

: 00:36:56

how if you know, you're bringing past

trauma from your family structure when

674

: 00:37:00

you're growing up and you're bringing

that into your current relationship,

675

: 00:37:03

the best way of kind of growing through

that is by working through things with

676

: 00:37:07

your current partner and being more

attentive to things as you're describing.

677

: 00:37:11

You know, the, the, um, uh, the this,

the showing your partner that you

678

: 00:37:15

have, that they're, they're secure and

giving them those affirmations, you

679

: 00:37:19

know, it's all part of that, uh, you

know, preventing the relationship from

680

: 00:37:23

deteriorating as a result of, you know,

you not dealing well with the stressful

681

: 00:37:27

things that you're experiencing at work.

682

: 00:37:29

For sure.

683

: 00:37:30

This kind of makes me think about your

interesting background in philosophy,

684

: 00:37:33

'cause you have a formal background

in philosophy as well, which is.

685

: 00:37:36

Not particularly common for, you know,

uh, physicians, healthcare providers.

686

: 00:37:40

So, and you mentioned earlier on, you

know, some of your interesting, and I I

687

: 00:37:44

agree with you, comments about happiness.

688

: 00:37:46

So what, what do you think about

like, 'cause I think obviously

689

: 00:37:48

happiness is a catchphrase, right?

690

: 00:37:50

In our society it's all about like the

pursuit of happiness and knocking that,

691

: 00:37:54

but to what extent do you think that

perhaps it's a little off course and maybe

692

: 00:37:58

even actually destabilizing for people?

693

: 00:38:01

Well, it's actually been

skewed quite a bit, and that

694

: 00:38:05

happened in the mid 18 hundreds.

695

: 00:38:06

So, you know, one thing, and I was

asked recently why it is that it's

696

: 00:38:12

so difficult to get mental health.

697

: 00:38:15

Why is access to it so difficult?

698

: 00:38:17

Why is, you know, and there's two reasons.

699

: 00:38:20

One is the past look on it, you know,

because mental health originally

700

: 00:38:24

was looked at as a scourge from God.

701

: 00:38:25

You, you were a sinner and you were

paying for your atonement, you know?

702

: 00:38:29

And the answer to that was to outcast

people from society and they would

703

: 00:38:34

start housing them together with

criminals, you know, and looked at the

704

: 00:38:37

same way, you know, and so they would

use pestilence houses in early America.

705

: 00:38:43

And, um, then they started putting people

into safe houses, uh, which were asylums,

706

: 00:38:49

but they were experimenting as they went.

707

: 00:38:51

You know, they were

utilizing different drugs.

708

: 00:38:54

They were using shock therapies and

lobotomies and all kinds of things

709

: 00:38:59

that they didn't really understand as

they were going through it, you know?

710

: 00:39:02

Mm-hmm.

711

: 00:39:03

Finally, Freud came along and said,

you know, you can psychoanalyze people

712

: 00:39:08

and you can make them better, but

they were also learning physiology.

713

: 00:39:14

In the same time, and believe it

or not, we only know physiology

714

: 00:39:18

as good as our own technology.

715

: 00:39:21

Back in history, the best

technology was aqueduct that took

716

: 00:39:25

water from one place to another.

717

: 00:39:27

Well, they understood the

circulatory system very well.

718

: 00:39:29

As a result, then they started to learn

to harness electricity, and that gave

719

: 00:39:36

a broader understanding of what the

nervous system and the nerves did.

720

: 00:39:39

But that was only in the

18 hundreds, you know?

721

: 00:39:41

Mm-hmm.

722

: 00:39:42

Um, I went to a exposition the

other day about, uh, mummification.

723

: 00:39:48

It was a presentation of toot and

common in his treasures, you know,

724

: 00:39:52

and they were talking about the

embalming process in ancient Egypt.

725

: 00:39:56

They would take the brain out with a hook

from the nose, and they thought that the

726

: 00:40:01

brain was just a filler, you know, to

keep your head structure in position.

727

: 00:40:06

They didn't understand it as a functioning

tool, and the reason was because of the

728

: 00:40:10

physiology they understood by movement.

729

: 00:40:12

The heart moves the fastest.

730

: 00:40:14

So the heart was the most important

part of your body, then the

731

: 00:40:17

lungs, then the digestive tract.

732

: 00:40:19

But there's functionality

based in the movement.

733

: 00:40:22

And since the brain just sits there,

it was useless in their mind, you know?

734

: 00:40:27

And so now we develop an understanding.

735

: 00:40:30

Uh, we're in the computer age,

so we start talking about the

736

: 00:40:35

brain is a computer, right?

737

: 00:40:37

And you'll hear computer terms like

genetic coding and DNA sequencing, you

738

: 00:40:43

know, these are all computer terms.

739

: 00:40:45

So our understanding of physiology

is gonna grow even deeper

740

: 00:40:50

when our technology improves.

741

: 00:40:52

You know, especially with

AI and things like that.

742

: 00:40:55

But in the mid 18 hundreds, we, um.

743

: 00:40:59

In the psycho analyzation

process, and they started to

744

: 00:41:01

get to know nervous disorders.

745

: 00:41:03

They had a lot of downer drugs like

Thorazine and lithium and those kind

746

: 00:41:08

of things, you know, so people don't

generally know the story, but if there

747

: 00:41:14

was the idea that you wanted just

sedate people and it would be easier

748

: 00:41:17

if you just gave everybody Valium.

749

: 00:41:20

Well, they had that idea and

they did it with lithium, but

750

: 00:41:23

it was getting people sick.

751

: 00:41:24

So they made what was called bipolar

litigated lemon lime soda, you

752

: 00:41:28

know, and all the sodas were used as

medicines, and so they were giving

753

: 00:41:33

people lithium through this soda.

754

: 00:41:34

Well, since it was getting people

sick, they had to take it out

755

: 00:41:37

and they rebranded it and renamed

the soda seven up, you know?

756

: 00:41:42

So when they started.

757

: 00:41:46

Going away from those downer drugs.

758

: 00:41:48

They wanted to experiment

in Germany with upper drugs.

759

: 00:41:52

And for the first time they made

methamphetamines and made it into a drug

760

: 00:41:56

called Pervitin, which was given to a

lot of the German military and the higher

761

: 00:42:01

ups and government and things like that.

762

: 00:42:04

And then they were using cocaine.

763

: 00:42:06

Now, the little dirty secret is

that, uh, Freud was a cocaine addict.

764

: 00:42:11

And his philosophy of the i, the

ego, the super ego that I, that

765

: 00:42:16

inner child that always needs to be

fed is the mantra of a drug addict.

766

: 00:42:20

Hmm.

767

: 00:42:21

And he focused on life that way

because of his addiction problem.

768

: 00:42:26

But he wanted all of

his patients on cocaine.

769

: 00:42:30

And he wrote a book called Cocaine Papers.

770

: 00:42:33

If you read through that, it's actually

a bunch of scientists that were taking

771

: 00:42:36

cocaine for the first time and writing

about their effects in real time.

772

: 00:42:43

Now, Freud's nephew was Bernas, and Bernas

is the father of all modern advertising.

773

: 00:42:52

You know, so things like eating bacon

and eggs for breakfast was because of

774

: 00:42:56

him, you know, uh, understanding that

smoking was beneficial and even treated

775

: 00:43:00

for, uh, throat cancer and stuff, which

is why they put menthol into it, uh,

776

: 00:43:06

was him, you know, and he, they were

pushing this idea of euphoric happiness.

777

: 00:43:12

Mm-hmm.

778

: 00:43:13

Back before then, in Greek

times, happiness was just like,

779

: 00:43:17

if you use the word, happiness

was just what happened to you.

780

: 00:43:20

Kind of like karma.

781

: 00:43:21

There's good, there's bad,

it's what happens to you.

782

: 00:43:23

Hmm.

783

: 00:43:23

And so Socrates, Aristotle, they

wrote about to have good things

784

: 00:43:29

happen to you, or for happiness, you

would have to have a virtuous life.

785

: 00:43:34

During enlightenment, Emmanuel Kant wrote

about happiness being a worthy life.

786

: 00:43:40

Right?

787

: 00:43:40

So in our constitution it says life,

liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

788

: 00:43:45

What they were saying was life, liberty,

and the pursuit of a worthy life.

789

: 00:43:48

Hmm.

790

: 00:43:50

Then along came Freud and they

started pushing for this euphoric

791

: 00:43:54

happiness on tap, on demand, and.

792

: 00:43:58

Then you had John Pemberton who made

the first recipe for Coca-Cola utilizing

793

: 00:44:04

cocaine, mola, uh, a molasses type

syrup, and then, uh, sugar and a, he

794

: 00:44:11

had wine and a high proof alcohol in it.

795

: 00:44:14

Temperance came along after that and

they said, well, we're gonna take

796

: 00:44:16

out the alcohol, the cocaine, but

they replaced it with high calories

797

: 00:44:20

and sugar and caffeine, right?

798

: 00:44:22

So they wanted to pitch it with

anything that would provide

799

: 00:44:26

this euphoric happiness.

800

: 00:44:28

So they went to ballparks and started

sponsoring ball players and said, if

801

: 00:44:34

you're gonna play this ball game, you

should serve our Coca-Cola, you know,

802

: 00:44:38

and this was a guy, AA Chamberlain did

this, you know, and they went together

803

: 00:44:42

with the Hamburger Brothers in the

: 1950

804

: 00:44:48

come up with a ready meal for kids?

805

: 00:44:50

You know, you can serve your

hamburgers and a french fries and

806

: 00:44:54

our Coca-Cola, and we'll call it.

807

: 00:44:56

Happy Meal, right?

808

: 00:44:58

Somebody who studied under Freud

quite a bit was Walt Disney.

809

: 00:45:01

And so he had the concept of

happily ever after one event in

810

: 00:45:06

your life that creates this euphoric

happiness and then you're good to

811

: 00:45:09

go from then on, happily ever after.

812

: 00:45:11

Mm-hmm.

813

: 00:45:11

And he named the Disney Park the

happiest place on Earth, you know?

814

: 00:45:16

And what the marketers have

learned is that happiness parts

815

: 00:45:20

you with your money, you know?

816

: 00:45:22

So you will spend more money

because of this euphoric happiness,

817

: 00:45:25

and they've used it ever since.

818

: 00:45:27

So if you look at it.

819

: 00:45:29

Commercial for a watch ad, or just

look at a watch ad, a picture.

820

: 00:45:33

The hands on the watch are always at 10.

821

: 00:45:34

10 or almost always, but you know,

they put the hands at 10 10, they,

822

: 00:45:39

it's not accident or coincidence,

you know, it mimics a smile.

823

: 00:45:42

Mm-hmm.

824

: 00:45:42

And so they'll say, buy our

product, you'll be happy.

825

: 00:45:45

Wear our watch, you'll be happy.

826

: 00:45:46

Wear our makeup, you'll be happy.

827

: 00:45:48

Eat our food.

828

: 00:45:48

You'll be happy.

829

: 00:45:50

You know, drink our

drink, you'll be happy.

830

: 00:45:52

And so when I ask people what

they want outta life, they'll

831

: 00:45:55

tell me happiness of some sort.

832

: 00:45:56

Almost always, you know?

833

: 00:45:58

And that's marketing propaganda, you know?

834

: 00:46:01

Mm-hmm.

835

: 00:46:01

And what people really need outta

life and what they want is the

836

: 00:46:04

security and affirmation, you know?

837

: 00:46:06

And at the end of the day, they

focus on that because like if I

838

: 00:46:10

tell somebody they've got cancer.

839

: 00:46:12

Sometimes what they'll sit there and say

is, when am I gonna start my chemotherapy?

840

: 00:46:16

Right?

841

: 00:46:17

Mm-hmm.

842

: 00:46:17

It's not a pathway to happiness, right.

843

: 00:46:19

What they're looking for is, you know,

a attackable situation and they will go

844

: 00:46:25

through whatever pain and suffering that

they have to, to be, be able to build,

845

: 00:46:29

to know that things are gonna be okay.

846

: 00:46:31

Mm-hmm.

847

: 00:46:31

And they wanna do it as

soon as possible, you know?

848

: 00:46:33

Yeah.

849

: 00:46:34

Um, why do people go to war?

850

: 00:46:36

You know, why do they join the military?

851

: 00:46:38

And to get a marketable skill, you

know, to get a, um, you do get your

852

: 00:46:44

accolades, your affirmation by promotion,

by honors or awards, things like that.

853

: 00:46:50

And back in the day, we used

to go to college, right.

854

: 00:46:53

To get a marketable skill.

855

: 00:46:55

And then the affirmation part of it is,

Hey, look, I made the honor roll, or.

856

: 00:47:00

I went to an Ivy League school.

857

: 00:47:01

Look, I went to Harvard, I went to Yale.

858

: 00:47:04

You know that, that's the

affirmation part of it.

859

: 00:47:06

Hmm.

860

: 00:47:06

Now it's changed.

861

: 00:47:07

People pursue happiness more and you

know, they go to school and they don't

862

: 00:47:11

care what they major in and they want

to get drunk and get high and you know,

863

: 00:47:16

it's a focus on sex and stuff like that.

864

: 00:47:18

So they're just looking to be happy.

865

: 00:47:20

Mm-hmm.

866

: 00:47:21

You know, and I see that over

and over again where people get

867

: 00:47:25

to their basal needs, you know,

that security and affirmation.

868

: 00:47:29

It took me a long time to understand it

too, because it's, if I go to someone

869

: 00:47:33

in the emergency room and they've got

this really bad abdominal pain mm-hmm.

870

: 00:47:38

If they really want happiness, the

first thing that they would do if I

871

: 00:47:42

told them, Hey, your CAT scan is normal.

872

: 00:47:45

You'd think, well, that you

can't get happier than that.

873

: 00:47:47

Right.

874

: 00:47:48

You know, but they get

mad, they get upset.

875

: 00:47:51

What do you mean it's normal?

876

: 00:47:53

There has to be something, you know,

and is that a desire to be sick?

877

: 00:47:57

You know, no, it's a desire to have a

attackable problem, which, you know,

878

: 00:48:02

gives you the security, but also

that affirmation, this pain is not

879

: 00:48:05

just in my head, you know, it can't

just be a little bit of gas, right?

880

: 00:48:10

Mm-hmm.

881

: 00:48:10

I, I wanna know exactly what it is.

882

: 00:48:12

Mm-hmm.

883

: 00:48:13

But the more that we.

884

: 00:48:15

Um, focus on happiness as a society.

885

: 00:48:19

You spend money too

much, you part with it.

886

: 00:48:22

Right.

887

: 00:48:22

And I hear things like, people are

upset that there's overpaid people,

888

: 00:48:28

celebrities, sports stars, you know,

uh, musicians, these kind of things.

889

: 00:48:35

Well, those are the people that made

you happy, you know, and you very

890

: 00:48:38

willingly parted with your money.

891

: 00:48:39

Yeah, right?

892

: 00:48:40

That's what made them

overpaid and rich, you know?

893

: 00:48:43

So we change out what's

necessary for what's comfortable.

894

: 00:48:49

And where I get nervous about

this is in the development of ai.

895

: 00:48:53

You know, and I hear Elon Musk talking

about this, where you know, Hey, we're

896

: 00:48:57

not gonna need to have jobs anymore.

897

: 00:48:59

It's all gonna be taken care of by robots.

898

: 00:49:02

He said the other day that going to

medical school is gonna be pointless

899

: 00:49:05

within the next five years or 10

years, you know, and we're going to.

900

: 00:49:11

You know, I have these issues that

come up because if I ask people

901

: 00:49:14

what's the opposite of depression?

902

: 00:49:16

And they tell me happiness,

that's the propaganda.

903

: 00:49:19

But it's actually purpose.

904

: 00:49:21

So what happens if everybody's

purpose in life is taken away by

905

: 00:49:24

machines or robots or whatever?

906

: 00:49:27

And my answer is, you're gonna need to

find purpose regardless of what you do.

907

: 00:49:31

Mm-hmm.

908

: 00:49:32

To the time you take your last breath,

you have to have purpose, or the

909

: 00:49:35

depression rates are gonna go high.

910

: 00:49:37

Yeah.

911

: 00:49:38

And if we step back to

COVID for a quick second.

912

: 00:49:40

Mm-hmm.

913

: 00:49:40

This is one of the biggest mistakes I

believe that we made, you know, during

914

: 00:49:45

COVID, was when they did the lockdowns,

you know, and they shut everything down.

915

: 00:49:51

Remember who they said

was gonna be working.

916

: 00:49:54

The essential workers, you know, so

the essential workers were gonna be

917

: 00:49:58

working and they kept up with it.

918

: 00:50:00

Imagine telling 90% of your population

that they were not essential, you know?

919

: 00:50:04

So they closed everything down.

920

: 00:50:06

And then when they reopened the

restaurants, people didn't want

921

: 00:50:08

to come back to work, you know?

922

: 00:50:10

Well, you just told them no, they

were not essential, you know?

923

: 00:50:14

And then, you know, still to this day

in hospitality and things like that,

924

: 00:50:18

they're having trouble getting people in.

925

: 00:50:20

They're having trouble filling the spots.

926

: 00:50:22

Restaurants have had to close down,

you know, there's a lot of things

927

: 00:50:26

that happen and, you know, people

just weren't, they've got the highest

928

: 00:50:31

rate of career changes now, you know.

929

: 00:50:34

Yeah.

930

: 00:50:35

Yeah.

931

: 00:50:35

No, I mean, it's a, it's a really, thank

you for that really comprehensive summary

932

: 00:50:39

of these deep and important issues

that are really affecting all of us.

933

: 00:50:43

I think really, you know, and especially

it makes me think of, you know, young

934

: 00:50:47

people, you know, my kids, you've

mentioned your kids and, and it's

935

: 00:50:51

the sort of thing where, yeah, I

think there's anxiety about what the

936

: 00:50:55

future holds in terms of how people

might find meaning and purpose.

937

: 00:50:59

I mean, you can talk about spirituality.

938

: 00:51:01

I think there are probably answers there

for people depending on their worldview,

939

: 00:51:06

but I think I really do agree with you.

940

: 00:51:08

I mean, in terms of the

cautionary tale for.

941

: 00:51:11

Say younger folks to, to be wary about

chasing happiness, because obviously, you

942

: 00:51:16

know, it's a, it's an illusion, right?

943

: 00:51:18

It's, it's a mirage.

944

: 00:51:20

And, and to just be thinking about,

you know, the degree to which, as

945

: 00:51:23

you say, you know, it's propaganda.

946

: 00:51:25

It's, it's based on the consumer society

that we live in that's gonna wanna

947

: 00:51:30

just get you going in that direction

to have you park from your dollars.

948

: 00:51:34

But yeah.

949

: 00:51:35

What, what are some of your thoughts

around, like, if you were counseling,

950

: 00:51:38

say a student, you know, or even trying

to steer your own kids in the right

951

: 00:51:42

direction, how might you encourage them

to like seek to build purpose and meaning

952

: 00:51:46

in life as opposed to chasing happiness?

953

: 00:51:51

Well, I, that's a good question.

954

: 00:51:53

I mean, that's a great question.

955

: 00:51:54

And I think it's, it's individualized for

everybody because, you know, everybody

956

: 00:52:00

has their purpose and it focuses around

where their talents are as well, you

957

: 00:52:05

know, and so there's certain things

that people get passionate about, and

958

: 00:52:09

I just would caution people against

passion towards happiness, you know?

959

: 00:52:13

But if you're doing things with

purpose to build and grow on things,

960

: 00:52:18

you know, um, one of the existential

questions, um, if I can get a little

961

: 00:52:24

religious for a second For sure.

962

: 00:52:26

Um, one of the existential

questions that you always ask in

963

: 00:52:30

philosophy is, what's the purpose?

964

: 00:52:31

And why are we all in life?

965

: 00:52:33

You know?

966

: 00:52:33

And I'll tell you that what I believe in.

967

: 00:52:36

So this is all just personal opinion.

968

: 00:52:38

I understand universal constants and these

are the things that everybody kind of

969

: 00:52:43

has a sense or awareness of are probably

pretty true, you know, and across the

970

: 00:52:49

major religions and, and even in science,

uh, the one thing that they understand

971

: 00:52:55

is that everything is made up of energy.

972

: 00:52:58

Right?

973

: 00:52:59

There was a brilliant guy who sat

there and said, mass is energy.

974

: 00:53:03

How much energy?

975

: 00:53:05

Well, you gotta multiply it by the speed

of light squared, that much energy, right?

976

: 00:53:09

But that's what mass is.

977

: 00:53:11

And so we are all packets of

energy and we're made up of energy.

978

: 00:53:16

And the first law of thermodynamics

that energy cannot be changed, right?

979

: 00:53:21

It, uh, or it can't be

created or destroyed.

980

: 00:53:24

It can only be changed.

981

: 00:53:26

And so.

982

: 00:53:28

If we, uh, can change

energy, you can't create it.

983

: 00:53:31

You can't destroy it.

984

: 00:53:33

Okay.

985

: 00:53:33

There's two types of energy.

986

: 00:53:35

One is potential and the other is kinetic.

987

: 00:53:38

So if you put the rock on the top of

the hill, it's got potential energy.

988

: 00:53:41

When it starts rolling down

the hill, that's kinetic.

989

: 00:53:44

Right?

990

: 00:53:44

And if you have, uh, the bow and arrow

analogy, if you pull back the bow,

991

: 00:53:49

that's a lot of potential energy.

992

: 00:53:51

You let it fly.

993

: 00:53:52

That's a kinetic, you know?

994

: 00:53:54

And so I do believe there's

a God, and I believe that God

995

: 00:53:57

created infinite potential energy.

996

: 00:53:59

And that's the part

people don't talk about.

997

: 00:54:01

Mm-hmm.

998

: 00:54:01

There was a creation of

infinite potential energy.

999

: 00:54:05

Then when you want to call it the

big bang or creation or whatever

: 1000

00:54:09,132 --> 00:54:12,402

you want to call it, he changed

that potential energy to kinetic.

: 1001

00:54:12,402 --> 00:54:13,272

Mm-hmm.

: 1002

00:54:13,332 --> 00:54:15,792

And what does it mean that

you're made in his likeness?

: 1003

00:54:15,792 --> 00:54:18,072

Well, you as a creature with intelligence.

: 1004

00:54:18,837 --> 00:54:23,037

And free will has the ability to

change potential energy to kinetic.

: 1005

00:54:23,487 --> 00:54:23,727

Mm-hmm.

: 1006

00:54:23,727 --> 00:54:24,177

Okay.

: 1007

00:54:24,417 --> 00:54:26,787

And then if the question

is, okay, how do I do that?

: 1008

00:54:27,087 --> 00:54:28,317

That's the individual part.

: 1009

00:54:28,737 --> 00:54:28,857

Mm-hmm.

: 1010

00:54:28,857 --> 00:54:33,207

That's where your individual

talents can lead it into how do you

: 1011

00:54:33,237 --> 00:54:35,187

change potential energy to kinetic?

: 1012

00:54:35,487 --> 00:54:38,487

And any way you find to do

that, take advantage of it.

: 1013

00:54:38,907 --> 00:54:42,777

You know, build, grow, develop,

build, grow, and develop yourself.

: 1014

00:54:43,107 --> 00:54:46,227

You know, build, grow

your potential, right?

: 1015

00:54:46,257 --> 00:54:46,467

Mm-hmm.

: 1016

00:54:46,707 --> 00:54:48,117

Build other people's potential.

: 1017

00:54:48,747 --> 00:54:51,567

It's littered all through the Bible

where they sit there and say, you

: 1018

00:54:51,567 --> 00:54:53,007

know, don't hydro lighten a bushel.

: 1019

00:54:53,007 --> 00:54:53,727

Let it grow.

: 1020

00:54:53,757 --> 00:54:57,897

Woe to the person who returns to the

master with the same grain he was given.

: 1021

00:54:58,317 --> 00:55:01,347

You know, bring bushels

back instead, go forth.

: 1022

00:55:01,347 --> 00:55:02,547

Be fruitful and multiply.

: 1023

00:55:02,547 --> 00:55:07,407

Because having children is the number one

way to change potential energy to kinetic.

: 1024

00:55:08,127 --> 00:55:11,997

And then even the basic message, how

do you build, grow potential energy

: 1025

00:55:11,997 --> 00:55:13,857

to kinetic in your relationships?

: 1026

00:55:14,352 --> 00:55:15,042

It's with love.

: 1027

00:55:15,387 --> 00:55:15,737

Right?

: 1028

00:55:15,742 --> 00:55:16,182

Right.

: 1029

00:55:16,422 --> 00:55:20,142

So in any of those things,

you develop purpose, you know?

: 1030

00:55:20,142 --> 00:55:24,162

And the one thing that people have to

understand is that in each of these

: 1031

00:55:24,162 --> 00:55:27,192

connections and interactions that

you're doing, that if you're building

: 1032

00:55:27,672 --> 00:55:29,622

kinetic energy, you're pivotal.

: 1033

00:55:29,742 --> 00:55:32,592

You're vital, you know,

you, you are necessary.

: 1034

00:55:33,162 --> 00:55:33,312

Yeah.

: 1035

00:55:33,312 --> 00:55:33,612

Right?

: 1036

00:55:33,612 --> 00:55:37,662

And so to sit back and be passive or want.

: 1037

00:55:38,592 --> 00:55:43,632

All the time of criticizing and knocking

people down, crushing hopes and dreams

: 1038

00:55:43,632 --> 00:55:47,262

or whatever it is that people are

doing, that's the opposite, right?

: 1039

00:55:47,322 --> 00:55:50,952

If you look at the list of the

sins, all they are is destruction

: 1040

00:55:50,952 --> 00:55:52,152

of kinetic energy, right?

: 1041

00:55:52,152 --> 00:55:52,242

Mm-hmm.

: 1042

00:55:52,242 --> 00:55:52,932

Don't kill, don't.

: 1043

00:55:52,932 --> 00:55:54,132

Why don't cheat, don't steal.

: 1044

00:55:54,132 --> 00:55:56,142

These are the things that

destroy kinetic energy.

: 1045

00:55:56,592 --> 00:55:56,682

Mm-hmm.

: 1046

00:55:56,682 --> 00:56:01,842

You know, so what I would like to see

as a society, you know, stop talking

: 1047

00:56:01,842 --> 00:56:03,162

to me about what you're against.

: 1048

00:56:03,282 --> 00:56:04,302

I want to know what you're for.

: 1049

00:56:04,662 --> 00:56:04,782

Hmm.

: 1050

00:56:04,842 --> 00:56:07,037

I wanna know what you would

build and grow and develop and,

: 1051

00:56:07,042 --> 00:56:08,952

and how would things get better?

: 1052

00:56:09,312 --> 00:56:11,832

You know, I'd love to see

politicians get up there and

: 1053

00:56:11,832 --> 00:56:13,152

say, Hey, yeah, this guy's great.

: 1054

00:56:13,632 --> 00:56:16,782

Let me show you why I might be able

to do a better job this time around.

: 1055

00:56:17,052 --> 00:56:18,972

Or maybe I'm the right

guy for this moment.

: 1056

00:56:19,332 --> 00:56:25,572

You know, but we also fixate on people

as being good people or bad people.

: 1057

00:56:25,572 --> 00:56:27,612

Like this is a good person,

or that's a bad person.

: 1058

00:56:27,942 --> 00:56:28,752

I don't believe that.

: 1059

00:56:28,902 --> 00:56:31,722

I believe that people do good

things and people do bad things.

: 1060

00:56:32,172 --> 00:56:36,012

Some of the people that come and confide

things to me in the emergency room, people

: 1061

00:56:36,012 --> 00:56:39,852

that you would think are really good

people have some really dark stories, you

: 1062

00:56:39,852 --> 00:56:42,252

know, and have done really dark things.

: 1063

00:56:42,762 --> 00:56:46,722

And so, you know, everybody can

be privy to that kind of thing.

: 1064

00:56:47,112 --> 00:56:50,592

So what you wanna do is focus

on, I'm making a decision.

: 1065

00:56:50,652 --> 00:56:53,982

The question is, are you building,

growing and developing, or are

: 1066

00:56:53,982 --> 00:56:55,242

you tearing down and destroying?

: 1067

00:56:56,112 --> 00:56:56,187

Yeah.

: 1068

00:56:56,187 --> 00:56:56,412

You know?

: 1069

00:56:56,502 --> 00:57:00,882

And it can make it that easy to put a

judgment weight onto it and sit there

: 1070

00:57:00,882 --> 00:57:04,632

and say, all right, even if I've done

stuff to destroy in the past, mm-hmm.

: 1071

00:57:04,872 --> 00:57:07,632

What am I gonna do to build

up now, you know, and develop.

: 1072

00:57:08,472 --> 00:57:11,982

And I think for everybody it can get

there, you know, if they use that

: 1073

00:57:11,982 --> 00:57:13,972

as a kind of pivot point, you know?

: 1074

00:57:13,972 --> 00:57:13,982

Mm-hmm.

: 1075

00:57:15,537 --> 00:57:15,837

Yeah.

: 1076

00:57:15,927 --> 00:57:16,227

Yeah.

: 1077

00:57:16,287 --> 00:57:17,277

Well, amen to that.

: 1078

00:57:17,277 --> 00:57:21,387

I mean, and it's kind of a reflection

of what we're up to right now

: 1079

00:57:21,387 --> 00:57:22,647

with this kind of conversation.

: 1080

00:57:22,647 --> 00:57:22,947

Right.

: 1081

00:57:22,947 --> 00:57:27,477

You know, bringing that potential

into the, the reality and, and,

: 1082

00:57:27,477 --> 00:57:32,037

and just disseminating these really

interesting ideas and conversations.

: 1083

00:57:32,037 --> 00:57:35,817

So yeah, really appreciate that,

you know, it, uh, it does resonate

: 1084

00:57:35,907 --> 00:57:37,257

as well as a fellow believer.

: 1085

00:57:37,257 --> 00:57:37,647

So.

: 1086

00:57:38,277 --> 00:57:42,327

I, I really, uh, yeah, I do really respect

and appreciate that, uh, perspective.

: 1087

00:57:42,567 --> 00:57:46,797

And I think all, you know, like I said

just now, regardless of everyone's

: 1088

00:57:46,797 --> 00:57:50,367

individual worldview, and even if people

are atheistic and what have you, you

: 1089

00:57:50,367 --> 00:57:55,287

know, there's, there's a lot of wisdom

in what you're saying in terms of, you

: 1090

00:57:55,287 --> 00:57:59,787

know, being cautious around chasing

happiness and being more attentive to

: 1091

00:57:59,847 --> 00:58:04,467

trying to build meaning and purpose

and agency through life and, and

: 1092

00:58:04,467 --> 00:58:07,737

being aware of the differentiation

between fear and helplessness

: 1093

00:58:07,737 --> 00:58:10,377

and all of these really important

things that we've reviewed today.

: 1094

00:58:10,377 --> 00:58:14,457

So, yeah, I mean, I think that's

probably a really good point to, to end

: 1095

00:58:14,457 --> 00:58:16,317

on a very positive and hopeful points.

: 1096

00:58:16,317 --> 00:58:19,617

So, yeah, again, thanks so much, um, Dr.

: 1097

00:58:19,617 --> 00:58:21,897

Cowles, my pleasure for joining us today.

: 1098

00:58:21,897 --> 00:58:25,977

It's just been such a, you know, it really

does, it makes me think that today's

: 1099

00:58:25,977 --> 00:58:27,777

conversation reminds us that wisdom.

: 1100

00:58:28,392 --> 00:58:31,992

Doesn't come from avoiding fear or

pain or trying to get rid of the

: 1101

00:58:31,992 --> 00:58:36,042

scars like you're describing, but

from engaging them honestly, right?

: 1102

00:58:36,612 --> 00:58:36,822

Mm-hmm.

: 1103

00:58:37,062 --> 00:58:41,412

Um, and so I've just really appreciated

your story, your perspectives through

: 1104

00:58:41,412 --> 00:58:46,392

emergency medicine philosophy, the lived

experience that you've told us about.

: 1105

00:58:46,392 --> 00:58:48,687

I mean, I think you've really

offered a rare perspective on

: 1106

00:58:48,687 --> 00:58:50,007

what actually matters when.

: 1107

00:58:50,952 --> 00:58:54,252

Say, comfort falls away and

reality becomes unavoidable.

: 1108

00:58:54,552 --> 00:58:54,852

Right.

: 1109

00:58:54,852 --> 00:58:58,272

And I think the one, if there's one thread

that maybe I can highlight throughout

: 1110

00:58:58,272 --> 00:59:02,262

the conversation today, it's that

the pursuit of happiness is certainly

: 1111

00:59:02,562 --> 00:59:04,992

overrated and, and misstated, as you say.

: 1112

00:59:05,322 --> 00:59:08,652

Um, and maybe it should be more

around the pursuit of purpose

: 1113

00:59:08,652 --> 00:59:13,182

and meaning that's earned through

responsibility, presence, and courage.

: 1114

00:59:13,182 --> 00:59:13,452

Right.

: 1115

00:59:13,452 --> 00:59:16,332

Because that, exactly that kind

of thing is never overrated.

: 1116

00:59:16,332 --> 00:59:20,442

That's where, that's really where people

need to be kind of focusing their,

: 1117

00:59:20,712 --> 00:59:23,562

their kinetic energy, transforming

their potential energy into their

: 1118

00:59:23,562 --> 00:59:25,482

kinetic energy, towards those goals.

: 1119

00:59:25,692 --> 00:59:28,902

If we, uh, if we use the, the bow

and arrow metaphor, that would

: 1120

00:59:28,902 --> 00:59:30,192

be what they're aiming at, right.

: 1121

00:59:30,642 --> 00:59:31,272

Exactly.

: 1122

00:59:31,947 --> 00:59:32,367

Exactly.

: 1123

00:59:32,367 --> 00:59:33,387

That's fantastic.

: 1124

00:59:33,387 --> 00:59:38,247

So Dana, thanks again for bringing

such clarity and depth this con Dana,

: 1125

00:59:38,247 --> 00:59:42,147

thanks again for bringing such clarity

and depth to this conversation.

: 1126

00:59:42,507 --> 00:59:46,287

Um, to viewers and listeners, if this

episode resonated, consider sharing it

: 1127

00:59:46,287 --> 00:59:50,637

with someone, particularly if you know

anyone who works in healthcare emergency

: 1128

00:59:50,637 --> 00:59:56,067

services, anyone that may be quietly

carrying on more than, uh, anyone that

: 1129

00:59:56,067 --> 00:59:59,727

may be quietly carrying more than they

let on, and you think that perhaps

: 1130

00:59:59,727 --> 01:00:01,377

they might need a hand in some way.

: 1131

01:00:01,587 --> 01:00:05,217

We would certainly encourage any

viewers and listeners who either are

: 1132

01:00:05,217 --> 01:00:09,207

experiencing that themselves or know

someone who might be to just, uh,

: 1133

01:00:09,207 --> 01:00:11,067

reach out, um, you know, get help.

: 1134

01:00:11,067 --> 01:00:11,937

You're not alone.

: 1135

01:00:12,177 --> 01:00:15,177

And we talked about some heavy

topics today, but I think, you

: 1136

01:00:15,177 --> 01:00:16,677

know, this is, this is real life.

: 1137

01:00:16,677 --> 01:00:20,247

This is, this is true, and we wanna

make sure that we are respectful

: 1138

01:00:20,247 --> 01:00:23,412

and attentive to these kinds of

issues because, you know, I want.

: 1139

01:00:24,042 --> 01:00:25,092

Everyone to know that.

: 1140

01:00:25,152 --> 01:00:27,912

Yeah, again, it's the sort of

thing that, uh, it takes courage to

: 1141

01:00:27,912 --> 01:00:30,792

step forward, but you know, that's

the, the first step is the most

: 1142

01:00:30,792 --> 01:00:32,532

important one and help is available.

: 1143

01:00:32,772 --> 01:00:35,622

So I would encourage you to take

that first step if you feel that it's

: 1144

01:00:35,622 --> 01:00:39,042

necessary or, you know, someone that you

think might be helped out in that way.

: 1145

01:00:39,282 --> 01:00:41,562

So, again, Dana, thanks

so much for joining us.

: 1146

01:00:41,562 --> 01:00:44,352

Really appreciate your, you know,

your passion, your story, your

: 1147

01:00:44,352 --> 01:00:45,582

interest, and your time today.

: 1148

01:00:45,612 --> 01:00:46,332

Thanks so much.

: 1149

01:00:46,752 --> 01:00:47,172

Absolutely.

: 1150

01:00:47,172 --> 01:00:47,892

Thanks for having me.

: 1151

01:00:48,822 --> 01:00:49,152

Okay.

: 1152

01:00:49,152 --> 01:00:49,572

Take care.

: 1153

01:00:49,572 --> 01:00:49,992

All the best.

: 1154

01:00:49,992 --> 01:00:50,292

Bye-bye.

: 1155

01:00:50,652 --> 01:00:50,952

Alrighty.

: 1156

01:00:50,952 --> 01:00:51,282

Bye-bye.

: 1157

01:00:53,232 --> 01:00:56,472

Thank you so much for joining us

today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

: 1158

01:00:56,652 --> 01:00:58,872

I hope that you enjoyed

the discussion with Dr.

: 1159

01:00:58,872 --> 01:01:00,342

Cowles as much as I did.

: 1160

01:01:00,702 --> 01:01:03,942

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

: 1161

01:01:03,942 --> 01:01:05,652

and subscribe to the podcast.

: 1162

01:01:05,832 --> 01:01:09,402

It's the best way to make sure that you

never miss an episode, and it helps us

: 1163

01:01:09,402 --> 01:01:11,622

to reach more curious minds like yours.

: 1164

01:01:12,222 --> 01:01:15,612

Also, if you think that today's

episode might resonate with a friend,

: 1165

01:01:15,612 --> 01:01:17,112

a family member, or a colleague.

: 1166

01:01:17,412 --> 01:01:22,722

Particularly, as we mentioned in the

conversation, if you or if you know of

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a friend or a family member or colleague

who's a healthcare professional.

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01:01:26,502 --> 01:01:31,002

Or any other kind of a caregiver, uh,

first responder, perhaps member of the

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01:01:31,002 --> 01:01:34,782

military or veteran, and you think that

they're perhaps struggling with some of

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01:01:34,782 --> 01:01:37,842

these issues and that they might benefit

from listening to or watching this

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01:01:37,842 --> 01:01:39,972

episode, please do share it with them.

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01:01:40,242 --> 01:01:43,662

You know, whether it's in the hopes

of helping somebody or just sharing

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01:01:43,662 --> 01:01:45,072

the knowledge that we discussed.

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01:01:45,342 --> 01:01:48,132

Knowledge is better when it's

shared, and you do never know

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01:01:48,132 --> 01:01:51,852

who might find this information

helpful, healing, or inspiring.

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01:01:52,652 --> 01:01:54,242

For more details about Dr.

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01:01:54,242 --> 01:01:57,902

Cowles and his work, I'll include

some links in the show notes.

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01:01:58,172 --> 01:02:00,632

Uh, so I do encourage you

to check out those links.

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01:02:00,932 --> 01:02:03,812

You'll find everything that you

need to understand his story

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01:02:03,812 --> 01:02:07,172

better and dive deeper into some

of the topics that we discussed.

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01:02:07,562 --> 01:02:09,242

And I would love to hear your thoughts.

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01:02:09,242 --> 01:02:13,892

So please do join the conversation in

the comment section or reach out on

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01:02:13,892 --> 01:02:18,362

social media, your questions, ideas,

and feedback make this podcast better.

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01:02:19,062 --> 01:02:21,362

Finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

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01:02:21,512 --> 01:02:25,772

It's gonna be another exciting discussion

regarding cutting edge neuroscience,

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01:02:25,982 --> 01:02:30,302

non-invasive clinical neurostimulation,

interventional mental health, and

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01:02:30,302 --> 01:02:32,252

other aspects of health and wellness.

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01:02:32,352 --> 01:02:33,762

So thanks again for listening.

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01:02:33,942 --> 01:02:34,692

Take care.

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01:02:34,752 --> 01:02:38,862

Stay curious, and I'll see you next

time on the Neurostimulation Podcast.