Mike: 00:00:10

Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Michael Passmore, clinical associate

professor in the Department of

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Psychiatry at the University of

British in beautiful Vancouver, Canada.

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The Neurostimulation podcast is all

about exploring the fascinating world

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of neuroscience in general, clinical

neurostimulation in particular, but

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we're also interested in other aspects

of interventional mental health, like

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ketamine assisted psychotherapy, and

other cutting edge treatment options that

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can help improve health and wellness.

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We talk to researchers, clinicians,

and we try to uncover recent research

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breakthroughs and understand how

those breakthroughs can translate

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into real world treatments that

can improve health and wellness.

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So whether you are a healthcare

professional, a researcher, a

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student, or someone who's curious

about how our brains work and what

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we can do to help those brains work

better, this podcast is for you.

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My mission is to make the

science accessible, inspiring,

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and relevant to your life.

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The podcast is separate from my clinical

and academic roles, and really is part of

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my personal effort to bring neuroscience

education to the general public.

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So I do emphasize that the information

shared here is intended for educational

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purposes only, and is not medical

advice or any kind of substitute

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for professional medical guidance.

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I would advise you to always

consult with your own healthcare

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provider to discuss your specific

health needs and treatment options.

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Welcome back to the

Neurostimulation Podcast everybody.

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Today's conversation is one I've

really been looking forward to.

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My guest today is Dr.

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José Moreno, a molecular biologist

who's leading genetic engineering

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at a company called CyanoCapture

in Oxford, where his team engineers

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cyanobacteria to capture carbon dioxide.

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A really fascinating, fascinating project.

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He has a PhD.

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He is published in various

academic journals Plant Physiology,

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microbiology Spectrum, and

Current Opinion in microbiology.

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He spent over a decade inside the

scientific system, laboratories,

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academic journals, conferences, peer

review, technical language, and yet

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after studying how life works for

years at that molecular level, he

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began asking a different question,

which is super interesting to me.

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He's really interested in why do

we know so much about how life

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works at a molecular level, yet

really so little about how to live

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it well and to our best potential.

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And so if he explores that question

in his book, which is called

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Heartbeats of Consciousness.

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It's a fascinating book that

explores that question through

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a story of two close friends.

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And so it weaves together the

neuroscience, details like glial cells

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in the brain, stress hormones, and

also incorporates really important

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foundational ideas ancient philosophy,

cognitive science, attention presence,

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and what he calls the Society of cells.

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Just right off the bat really would

encourage everyone to check out Dr.

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Moreno's book, Heartbeats

of Consciousness.

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There are links to where you can purchase

the book in the show notes, and also

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you can learn more about his work and

his content at drjoseangelmoreno.com.

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That's

D-R-J-O-S-E-A-N-G-E-L-M-O-R-E-N-O.com.

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And so today we're gonna talk

about all of that and I'm really

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looking forward to the conversation.

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So Dr.

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Moreno, thanks so much for joining

us and welcome to the show.

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Jose: Thank you, Michael, for

this opportunity and really

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excited to carry out this podcast,

it's a very nice opportunity.

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yes, as I mentioned, you mentioned,

I start my journey in science in

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2016 working in a tiny organism

called cyanobacteria that are very,

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small, tiny cells they are, for

example, in the ocean in some lake.

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one thing, Michael, that is,

that have been seen through this

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year is people normally think,

when we breath, we say, oh, save.

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Or I say for example, people

say we need to save the Amazons,

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we need to save the forest.

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But it's it's really surprising

that half of the oxygen of the

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planet is produced in the ocean.

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So thinking about the

importance of this organism.

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So I have been studying this in 2016.

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when I did, I started with doing my

PhD in the south of Spain in Cordova.

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And after that I was continue, okay,

what this organism can do, because I was

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trying to understand the metabolism of

the carbon, how this molecule have, are,

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uptake in the cell and what they can do.

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But it's really exciting because through

the past of the year I have been there are

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some, some of these kind of organism that

they can use to produce biofield they can

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use to produce a anti counter component.

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It is something that blow my mind,

because there, there is something

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that is not there that they take

CO2 and they produce something.

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So we are, it's a way to, helping

the planet or create a better world.

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So in 2021, I take the decision to

move to a laboratory in Norwich, in the

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United Kingdom, lead by one Australian

scientific, called David Smith, that

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they was trying to develop a, a toolbox

in order to modify this, cyano bacteria.

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So imagine that you're

a kind of, engineer.

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Say, okay, I am going to modify this.

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I'm going to introduce this

protein called protein component.

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And the, and you can

produce whatever you want.

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you, the only thing that you need to do

is putting this protein, through metabolic

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engineer and introducing CO2 in, and you

prepare a media depend on the strain.

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You can put fresh water, sea water,

something very, very cheap to do.

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And after that you get a component.

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So it was really exciting to

me and, I still, I am working

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with this organism, but.

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I have been, during this, journey, I

has been a lot of curiosity because

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when I finish in this research in 2023

in this laboratory, I return, to the

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University of Oxford as a professor.

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But, I have, when I was, teaching

and the thing, I was feeling that

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there was a lack of motivation,

that I can do something else.

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And this is when I saw the, one of the,

I think this is the only company in the

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world, called CyanoCapture in Oxford,

where they, I was seeing, I was very

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excited because they was using this

organism in order to produce compounds.

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So I contact with the CEO and with,

with my cv, that I was creating

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this toolbox in order to modify.

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I started in October 23 and, and I

am still there, continue leading the

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genetic manipulation plan of the company.

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And we are trying to

express a, from insulin.

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we are having the, we are it's the

first time in the world that insulin

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has been produced in cyano bacteria.

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Even the, have you ever had for example,

composed that they are, that they are

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needed in to produce artificial meat?

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for example, FGF2.

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It's a type of fibroblast that

they, that need to do that.

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So it whatever you want to do,

you introduce this and you have

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a platform in order to produce.

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So this has been really exciting, but,

when as I mentioned to you, Michael, I

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have a lot of curiosity and I say, okay,

what will be the next step, for me?

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and I was a, I am a person who love

the curiosity and love the brain,

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how the neuroscience work, how

the, the synapsis that established,

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in the brain, what is happening.

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I was, I, I love to do the, the evaluation

of the science, and I, and I have a

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feeling that when people was a bit of

scared about science, because people

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say oh, this is very technical, so think

I need to do something, to approach

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the science to the people in order

that people can understand and see a,

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a science, a tool in order that they,

it's a, they can, help in their lives.

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And that's drive to me to not only,

to read about the neuroscience.

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I was looking to philosophy and the themes

and this, when this, the idea of the book,

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that you mentioned, begin is called, my

book is called Heartbeats of Consciousness

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at this, will say that this is a

bridge between science, mind, and soul.

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it's a way, a union toward

understanding the, the self.

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I want to do something

different in the podcast.

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Mike, I want that you close

your eyes for three seconds.

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Mike: Awesome.

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I love it.

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Yeah.

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Jose: Okay.

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I know while you have them

closed, I want you feel something.

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Something that's happening right

now and this very instant without

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you having to do anything for it

to happen, your heart is beating.

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Now you can open your eyes and that

heartbeat Mike, that you felt or imagined

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is the invisible protagonist of the book.

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This book, is called Heartbeat of

Consciousness because every heartbeat,

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it's a reminder, a reminder that we

are alive, that we have time, that

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we can choose what to do with time.

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It's like an invitation to discover the

science, what we know about our brain

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or body or cell, and the consciousness,

that inner voice that has us.

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Who we are and we and where we are

going, that they're not separate paths.

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They are, they are the same path.

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They are the heartbeats.

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So I want to mention something a

lot of, for example, people ask

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to me a lot why you write this

book, José, why you write the book.

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I'm going to be honest with you, Mike,

I'm going to be honest because this

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book, was born from a frustration

because you see when I start, to

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look books that combine what I want

to tell, I discover in something

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surprising and they didn't exist.

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Because for example, you, for example,

when you go to the bookstore, there is

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a clear division in on the one on one

side you have the nonfiction section with

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neuroscience essay, popular science book,

psychology manuals, data status reference.

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Very rigorous, very serious, and many

times, let's be honest, hard to finish.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Jose: On the other side, you have

the fiction, novel with character,

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plot, emotion, a story that hooked

you, that make you feel that you

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can't, put down until three morning,

but that really teach you something

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applicably to your real life.

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And I ask, kept asking myself,

why do I have to choose?

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Why can't there be a book that tells you

and story that move you with character

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that you want as a friend with a scene

that you make you cry and laugh and at the

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same time teach you how your brain works?

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What science about what science says

about the emotion, how you can apply that

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knowledge more important to live better?

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So I look for that book

and I didn't find it.

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So I decide, Too.

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Great.

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So my book is a kind of hybrid, I

will call it hybrid because it's a

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fiction and not t at the same time.

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It's a novel, with a scientific rigor.

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Michael,

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the thing is, but there

was another problem.

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I find another problem.

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It was related with the thing

that I was telling previously.

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I had spent studying, how the brain

work, how, was studying how the

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brain functions, how the neurons

communicate, how the chemistry of

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our body influences our emotions.

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But suddenly, all of this, scientific

knowledge to me fell insufficient.

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Because, science school explained to me

what was happening inside of my brain.

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When, when, when you,

for example, feel pain.

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Brain could, it could tell you,

for example, this amygdala was

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activating, or for example, the

cortisol was, floating your system,

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that the tears were, physiological,

respond to emotional stress.

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But science couldn't tell

me how to keep going.

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So, I started searching, reading,

researching, but not just a

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scientific paper, you know, like

neuroscience papers, and these things.

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But also I was digging in philosophy,

the Stoics, the Buddhists, the Taoists,

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Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Lao-Tsu,

all of the different philosophy ways.

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And I discovered something extraordinary.

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Mike, do you know what I discovered?

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Mike: No, no.

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Tell us.

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Jose: Well, science is discovering now

about the brain and emotion philosophy

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was into it in this, 2000 years ago.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Jose: Because neuroplasticity, the

brain's ability to change is the

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scientific version of what, for

example, the philosopher Heraclitus

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say no one can bathe twice in the same

river because everything, everything

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flows, everything change, including us.

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Mike: Panta Rhea right.

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That's Heraclitus, panta

rhea, everything flows.

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Yeah.

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Jose: And for example, another thing

that is fascinating to me is the

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connection between the gut and the brain.

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That, that one is the thing we

know called the gut brain axis.

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this is, to me, this is the confirmation

of what the Eastern tradition always knew.

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Mike: And

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Jose: it is that the body and the mind

are not separated because we sometimes

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we want to separate thing and no

this, everything have a connection.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Jose: So this book, was born from a, from

that type of, search, from that attempt

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to find a bridge between what I know as a

scientist and what I feel, and between the

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scientists that who analyze and the human

being who suffer, who love, who hopes.

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But to me the most, one of the very

important thing is when I decide

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to write this book, I have to make

a very, very important decision.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Jose: Do I write this as a

scientific essay or as a story?

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And I choose the story.

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Do you know why I choose the story?

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Mike,

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Mike: I mean, I have a few

guesses, but you tell us.

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Yeah.

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Jose: Because the da, the data

informs, but the story transforms.

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Mike: Mm,

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Jose: I can, I can tell you, for example,

that the neuroplasticity allowed the

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brain to, for neuro connection and

NHA or, or for example, I can tell you

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in a very complex way how this work.

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This is a fact, it's true.

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But, you will probably forget tomorrow.

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I say it to you in a very complex

way and the general audience.

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But however, if I tell you the story

of a young girl who after losing her

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parents in a accident and surviving

the hell, of an orphanage and find

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the strength to get up every day and

become an extraordinary person, it's

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something that I probably, you won't

forget that, because this is Fania,

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one of the protagonists of the book.

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Fania was, 10 years old when a red

truck run over of her family cars.

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The father the, the parents die instantly.

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She was in the backseat and

she was, saw everything.

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Mm.

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So she spends more months in the

orphanage where the cruelty was the

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norm, where the, when the other girl

will take, wake her at night, throw

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cold water on her when they stole her

food, where they humiliate her in a way

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that I'm not going to describe here.

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And yet Fania the

protagonist didn't break.

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Do you know what, said to her?

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Mike: No.

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Jose: The teacher, the teaching that her

parents who were philosopher professor

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had passed on to her before they die.

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This as I mentioned the Stoicism.

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That is the idea that we cannot

control what happened to us, but

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we can control how we respond.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Jose: Then so Fania, to be what?

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I this, work.

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There is an author called Nassim Taleb.

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That it has, a term called antifragile.

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Yeah.

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That he want to mean not simply

resilient, which is enduring the blows,

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but antifragile, someone who grows

strong, stronger, with each blow.

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Mike: Yeah.

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I love

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Jose: that concept.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Jose: And there, there is Paula

the other protagonist, but however,

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Paula is completely different.

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Paula hasn't, suffered, terrible trauma.

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Paula is pure scientific curiosity.

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She's the girl who get excited

when she sees two neurons in

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communication under microscope.

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It remember to me, who write neuroscience

papers for, for fun, who dream

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discovering the secret of the human brain.

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So Paula represent that part

of us who want to understand.

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The belief that if we comprehend how

the things work, we can live better.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Jose: So, but however, Mike, Paula,

also have a weakness and she get,

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she get carried away, by her emotion.

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She worries too much, too

much about the future.

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She get anxious.

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She doesn't know how to

manage the anxiety daily.

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This is like where Fania

becomes her teacher.

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There is an, a sentence that I

wrote in the book that I especially

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is Paula has received an email

from the Harvard University.

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It could be the fellowship of

her life, or a rejection, and she

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doesn't dare to open, honor pass.

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She's paralyzed by fear and Fania look

at her and says, worries are balloons.

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If we inflate, too much,

they pop, they explode.

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Then she shows her an hourglass

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know, the, the sand-clock she

cover the top of, of, of the

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part with tape and explained.

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So the top is part, is part is the future.

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We don't know, how much sand is left.

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The bottom part is the past, if

already fell, we can't change it.

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But look, the sand, that's falling now.

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At this moment, through this

tiny, through this tiny passage.

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That's the present moment.

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That's where you should

put your attention.

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So that image of the, the sand glass.

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Mike: I love that image.

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Yeah.

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It's great.

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Jose: Yes, because every time

I catch myself worrying about,

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: 00:19:02

something that hasn't happened

yet, or I think of this tiny,

309

: 00:19:06

passage on the sand failing now.

310

: 00:19:09

Mike: Yeah.

311

: 00:19:09

Jose: this book to me is full of

science, but people was worried

312

: 00:19:12

when I grow this video, oh,

José, it difficult to understand.

313

: 00:19:15

And I say, no, it's not thing

that I call, called science.

314

: 00:19:18

It's laboratory science.

315

: 00:19:19

It's it's science that, speak

to us about who we are and we

316

: 00:19:28

can become.

317

: 00:19:28

So I want to.

318

: 00:19:30

If I, for example, I would like to

share something for the audience,

319

: 00:19:32

three ideas that's transformed me.

320

: 00:19:35

Well, I was searching the, the first

one, Mike, I feel we are and it is not

321

: 00:19:40

a metaphor, it's literal because our

brains emit photons, particle of real

322

: 00:19:46

light that they are called bio photons.

323

: 00:19:48

And although science is

still investigating the,

324

: 00:19:54

exact function I have in contact

with, there is one group in the

325

: 00:19:56

University of Calgary in Canada

326

: 00:19:58

Mike: Hmm.

327

: 00:20:00

Jose: led by Parisa Zarkeshian,

that they was finding all of this.

328

: 00:20:03

I was talking to her and it

was, we have conversation.

329

: 00:20:05

They told me about the new research

on that, and it's fascinating

330

: 00:20:09

that the thing that they're doing.

331

: 00:20:10

And at the moment of death, one of

the thing that I saw is the brain

332

: 00:20:15

emission of biophoton multiplies by 100.

333

: 00:20:19

So think about that.

334

: 00:20:20

For a few instants before setting

off forever, the brain signs with an

335

: 00:20:25

intensity, it doesn't have any life.

336

: 00:20:27

So when I discovered this, I thought about

the spiritual tradition that the speed

337

: 00:20:34

of the, the alignment about the halos of

light, that surround saints in paintings

338

: 00:20:39

About the idea that we are beings of light

temporarily trapped in a physical bodies.

339

: 00:20:45

What if wasn't just poetry?

340

: 00:20:47

What if this just intuition?

341

: 00:20:50

So we are, I think that we are

alive, literally, and perhaps, or

342

: 00:20:53

joke while we are alive is to sign.

343

: 00:20:56

The second one is, when we think

about the intelligence, we think about

344

: 00:21:01

the, the brain, the skull, the mass

of the neurons inside of the skull.

345

: 00:21:05

But it turns out that the sense

that it is not only the one because

346

: 00:21:12

you see the paper and the last

research, our gut has more than,

347

: 00:21:17

around 500 million neurons

approximately, and it produce between

348

: 00:21:22

80 and 90% of our body's serotonin,

this hormone of calm and wellbeing.

349

: 00:21:27

Yeah, it has its own, nervous system

so, so complex that the scientist

350

: 00:21:34

is calling the, the second brain.

351

: 00:21:36

Mike: Right?

352

: 00:21:36

Jose: And, and then there is the heart.

353

: 00:21:39

It was fascinating when they,

paper of five years ago when they

354

: 00:21:42

say there is a 40,000 neurons and

and also they are measuring that

355

: 00:21:46

they have electromagnetic field.

356

: 00:21:48

There is an institute called

HeartMath that they have the, there

357

: 00:21:53

is, electromagnetic field and also

more power feed than the brain.

358

: 00:21:57

That this is something that we don't

have a still data to publish, but I

359

: 00:22:01

think this something exciting and with

the passage of the year, we will find

360

: 00:22:05

more new discovery about the brain that

we, we have, we know something, but

361

: 00:22:09

there is still a lot of thing to dig in.

362

: 00:22:11

And also, I was reading also that this,

this was capable of sending more signs

363

: 00:22:18

to the brain that it received from it.

364

: 00:22:20

So this made me understand something.

365

: 00:22:24

So for example, when sometimes we

feel things before we think them,

366

: 00:22:30

we say, I feel, in my gut or my,

or my or my hair is, tell me yes.

367

: 00:22:34

I think that there is not poet you

expressing, there are something that

368

: 00:22:38

they call an anatomical description.

369

: 00:22:41

Mike: Yeah.

370

: 00:22:41

Jose: so with this, we know that

intelligence is isn't all in,

371

: 00:22:44

in the head, it is distributed

throughout the entire body.

372

: 00:22:48

Mike: Mm-hmm.

373

: 00:22:49

Jose: And when we learn to listen to

those of other brains, we think, I

374

: 00:22:54

think that we make a better decision.

375

: 00:22:56

Mike: Yeah.

376

: 00:22:56

Jose: And the third, the third

one, it will also resonate with

377

: 00:23:00

you is for decades, science

believed that the brain was a fixed

378

: 00:23:06

structure, that the neuron dies.

379

: 00:23:08

We are not replaced.

380

: 00:23:09

That after a certain age, we

couldn't, truly learn new things,

381

: 00:23:13

but I know Mike, that they were

wrong because the brain is plastic.

382

: 00:23:18

It can form new connections at any age.

383

: 00:23:20

It can reorganize itself after trauma.

384

: 00:23:23

It can learn languages at

seventies and play the piano at 80.

385

: 00:23:27

So then, so this means something

very, very profound, that we are not

386

: 00:23:32

condemned to be who we have been.

387

: 00:23:35

Mike: Mm-hmm.

388

: 00:23:35

Jose: Every, I think that every day it's

an opportunity to reconfigure our brain.

389

: 00:23:40

Every thought which we choose to

think, every habit we decide to

390

: 00:23:44

cultivate is literally sculpting

the physical structure of our mind.

391

: 00:23:48

Mm-hmm.

392

: 00:23:48

Uh, one of the, of the symbol that I put

in the, I put several, I explain, I try

393

: 00:23:53

to explain all of the content in the book

in like with metaphor that all the people

394

: 00:23:57

could try to, to understand this easily.

395

: 00:24:00

Mm-hmm.

396

: 00:24:00

So I say, for example, to put one

example that come to my mind now, like.

397

: 00:24:05

Um, the brain is like a garden.

398

: 00:24:07

So we, we can plant new seed and make

them grow with fitness and solidity.

399

: 00:24:13

Mm-hmm.

400

: 00:24:13

So this question is, the question

is not whether we can change.

401

: 00:24:17

The question is what do

we want to cultivate?

402

: 00:24:20

Mike: Yeah.

403

: 00:24:23

Jose: The last thing that I want to say

if, if after everything I have told you

404

: 00:24:27

tomorrow you only remember one thing.

405

: 00:24:30

Mm-hmm.

406

: 00:24:30

I want it to be this: And it is

that pleasure is not happiness.

407

: 00:24:35

Mm-hmm.

408

: 00:24:36

Because you think about that,

Mike, we live in a society that's

409

: 00:24:39

confused this two things constantly.

410

: 00:24:42

We buy because it gives pleasure.

411

: 00:24:44

We eat, because it gives us pleasure.

412

: 00:24:46

We are scrolling our, in our phone

because gives us pleasure and then

413

: 00:24:50

we wonder why, eh, having more

comfort than any previous generation.

414

: 00:24:55

We are more anxious and

depressed that ever.

415

: 00:24:58

But, neuroscience had

an explanation for that.

416

: 00:25:00

The pleasure is meditated by dopamine.

417

: 00:25:04

You know, it's like the hormone of, I want

more the, I want more molecule, you know?

418

: 00:25:08

Mm-hmm.

419

: 00:25:09

So every time we get something

pleasurable, dopamine gives

420

: 00:25:13

us a rise, and then it drops.

421

: 00:25:16

Um, to get the same rise

in this time we need more.

422

: 00:25:20

So it is like something like

is, a staircase that never

423

: 00:25:23

stop, uh, never stop climbing.

424

: 00:25:25

Mike: Yeah.

425

: 00:25:25

Jose: But happiness.

426

: 00:25:28

The happiness, you know, the

genuine, like the lasting

427

: 00:25:30

happiness is mediated by serotonin.

428

: 00:25:33

And serotonin doesn't activate when

we take, but when we give, you know?

429

: 00:25:38

Mm-hmm.

430

: 00:25:38

When we connect with others, when

we do something with purpose, when

431

: 00:25:43

we feel that our life has a meaning.

432

: 00:25:47

Mike: Mm-hmm.

433

: 00:25:47

Jose: Um.

434

: 00:25:48

For example, the Buddhists

have, uh, has been saying this

435

: 00:25:52

for two, around 2,500 years.

436

: 00:25:56

The sufferings, uh, comes from desire.

437

: 00:25:59

And also, Stoicism teaches, the

tranquility, come from admitting what

438

: 00:26:04

we cannot control and acting with virtue

on the things that we can control.

439

: 00:26:09

Mm-hmm.

440

: 00:26:10

Also, also Taoism speaks of

the one term called Wu-Wei.

441

: 00:26:15

Mike: Mm-hmm.

442

: 00:26:15

Jose: That they say that with the,

they call, they try to explain like

443

: 00:26:18

flowing with the life, you know,

instead of, uh, fighting against this.

444

: 00:26:22

Mm-hmm.

445

: 00:26:23

Modern neuroscience is confirming this

ancient intuition with brain scans and

446

: 00:26:28

also with neuro transmission measurement.

447

: 00:26:30

And the ancient wisdom and the modern

neuroscience are converging and both

448

: 00:26:34

are telling us the same thing, that

the happiness is not, the happiness is

449

: 00:26:39

not in the, in the next achievement,

in the next purchase, in the next,

450

: 00:26:42

like it is, I think that it's, it is

here, you know, in this moment, in

451

: 00:26:46

the quality of, of, of our attention.

452

: 00:26:49

Uh, yeah, in the depth of, of

our connection in the meaning

453

: 00:26:54

we give, give that, uh, we do.

454

: 00:26:57

Mm-hmm.

455

: 00:26:58

Um, eh, I want to, I don't want to

extend more, uh, I want to end with that

456

: 00:27:03

image from the book that stay with me,

with me, and it's about the fireflies.

457

: 00:27:08

Mm-hmm.

458

: 00:27:09

Do you know, Mike, how, uh, the

fireflies produce the light?

459

: 00:27:13

Mike: No.

460

: 00:27:13

Talk about it fireflies.

461

: 00:27:15

Yeah.

462

: 00:27:15

That's fascinating, isn't it?

463

: 00:27:16

The photo bioluminescence?

464

: 00:27:17

Yeah.

465

: 00:27:18

I love it.

466

: 00:27:18

Jose: So.

467

: 00:27:19

Something that I love.

468

: 00:27:21

And when I was, you know, this

idea come to me and I tried to

469

: 00:27:25

to, to include all of this in the

book and try to do a connection.

470

: 00:27:28

So, so this organism, uh, they have

something, uh, something very special.

471

: 00:27:33

They have an organ in their abdomen

called, uh, called a lantern.

472

: 00:27:37

So inside of this, there is a,

a substance called luciferins.

473

: 00:27:42

And this luciferin, when it's

combined with oxygen and with the

474

: 00:27:46

help of, of another enzyme that they

have called luciferase, produce a

475

: 00:27:50

chemical reaction that happens, that

release energy in the form of light.

476

: 00:27:56

So it just is biology, you know,

like, uh, organic chemistry.

477

: 00:28:01

Mm-hmm.

478

: 00:28:01

But to me it's something

completely magical.

479

: 00:28:04

Mm-hmm.

480

: 00:28:05

Do you know why?

481

: 00:28:05

Because those tiny creatures in the

darkness of the night sign, but.

482

: 00:28:12

I think that they don't sign to

illuminate, illuminate themself.

483

: 00:28:16

Mm-hmm.

484

: 00:28:16

They don't need to use the, the

light to see, but to find each

485

: 00:28:19

other, to communicate, to connect.

486

: 00:28:22

Mike: Mm-hmm.

487

: 00:28:24

Jose: Sometimes Mike, I think

that we are like fireflies.

488

: 00:28:28

We carry inside of us the ability

to produce light, to shine in

489

: 00:28:34

the darkness, to illuminate the

path for the others who are lost.

490

: 00:28:40

But to sign that we, we have to

activate our chemical reaction.

491

: 00:28:47

We need to find our luciferin

492

: 00:28:49

that which we are passionate about,

and our luciferin that will be like the

493

: 00:28:52

purpose that catalyses that passion.

494

: 00:28:55

Mm-hmm.

495

: 00:28:55

And we have to, to stop, uh, hiding in the

darkness, waiting for someone to find us.

496

: 00:29:02

So, Paula and Fania, the

protagonists of this book, at the

497

: 00:29:07

end, they found something together,

something called that I call the

498

: 00:29:12

Neuro-Cardio Philosophical School.

499

: 00:29:14

That is a place where the science of

the brain and the heart joins, uh,

500

: 00:29:19

with the, with the wisdom of philosophy

to help people to live better.

501

: 00:29:25

Mm-hmm.

502

: 00:29:26

Mike, to be honest, I don't, I don't

know if that's, a school will never

503

: 00:29:29

sit outside of this page, of this

book, but I know that each one of you

504

: 00:29:36

can create your own version of it.

505

: 00:29:38

Mike: Mm-hmm.

506

: 00:29:39

Jose: In your family, in your work, in

your community, every time that you send

507

: 00:29:44

knowledge that helps others, uh, every

time that you listen to someone who is

508

: 00:29:48

suffering, every time that you choose

compassion over judgment, connection over

509

: 00:29:55

isolation, or purpose over empty pleasure.

510

: 00:30:02

I think that you are

turning up this light.

511

: 00:30:05

So this book cost me, I, to be honest

with you, I started in: 2021

512

: 00:30:13

idea, me a lot of, uh, years of work

or research or writing of rewriting

513

: 00:30:19

of early mornings when I doubted about

everything, but also gave me something

514

: 00:30:23

invaluable: It helped me to process the

loss of my father, to find meaning in

515

: 00:30:29

the pain, to turn something broken into

something that perhaps can help others.

516

: 00:30:38

In the epilogue, I include a decalogue.

517

: 00:30:42

It's like ten promises that

I make to myself every day.

518

: 00:30:46

I am going to say just the first one.

519

: 00:30:48

Mike: Sure.

520

: 00:30:48

Yeah.

521

: 00:30:48

Mm-hmm.

522

: 00:30:49

Jose: Promise yourself to be unbreakable.

523

: 00:30:52

Do not allow external circumstances

to disturb your inner peace.

524

: 00:30:57

To be honest, Mike, I

don't always manage it.

525

: 00:31:00

Some days I go read too

much, uh, like Paula.

526

: 00:31:03

Mike: Mm-hmm.

527

: 00:31:04

Jose: Other days, the parent returns and

I, and I have to remind myself of Fania's

528

: 00:31:09

teaching, but, you know, every day I try

and that's the only thing that we can do.

529

: 00:31:15

Try and try and try again until be, until,

you know, until it becomes habit, until

530

: 00:31:23

the neural connections consolidate until

the person that we want to become, uh,

531

: 00:31:28

want to be becomes the person that we are.

532

: 00:31:30

So that's the main thing

that I want to say.

533

: 00:31:33

Thank you to, to explain all that and

you want to have any question or anything

534

: 00:31:37

that is the main idea I want to say.

535

: 00:31:39

Mike: Yeah.

536

: 00:31:39

That's amazing.

537

: 00:31:40

Thank you so much for that detailed

and fascinating explanation.

538

: 00:31:44

It's just so, so many different directions

that we could go in and I was just

539

: 00:31:50

thinking so many different, ideas that

and, and interests that we have in common.

540

: 00:31:54

I think it's so amazing.

541

: 00:31:56

So just before.

542

: 00:31:58

I get into any of that.

543

: 00:32:00

The book, of course, is Heartbeats

of Consciousness, and so I would

544

: 00:32:03

encourage viewers and listeners to

definitely check out, José's book and

545

: 00:32:08

there'll be links in the show notes.

546

: 00:32:10

So please do check those out.

547

: 00:32:11

as well as to links to, other

aspects of José's content.

548

: 00:32:15

And it's just so interesting because,

yeah, one of the first things that

549

: 00:32:18

I chuckled with was when you talked

about how the nonfiction section

550

: 00:32:22

of the bookstore, it's filled with

books that nobody finishes, and

551

: 00:32:24

I know I have a bookshelf that's

full of those books at home.

552

: 00:32:27

So, so I really, I really appreciate

the purpose and the vision of the book

553

: 00:32:32

in terms of uniting the nonfiction

and the fiction worlds to make it

554

: 00:32:37

accessible and, bringing it into how

people can get an understanding of

555

: 00:32:42

science in a way that helps them to

improve their own lives and wellbeing.

556

: 00:32:46

One of the things that it struck me, is

when you were talking a bit about the

557

: 00:32:49

ideas from Eastern philosophy and how

modern neuroscience is really kind of

558

: 00:32:54

reminding us of what, people knew about,

559

: 00:32:56

2,500 years ago, as you say, people

are already talking about these,

560

: 00:33:01

these issues in ways that, now we're

just coming to understand again.

561

: 00:33:05

And it also makes me think about, 'cause

one of the things increasingly with mental

562

: 00:33:09

health that's becoming, more evident is

the idea of psychedelic assisted therapy

563

: 00:33:13

and how perhaps these plant medicines can

also be a way of, of understanding ancient

564

: 00:33:19

wisdom and bringing it into contemporary

life and, and helping us to kind of

565

: 00:33:24

reframe how we consider mental illness.

566

: 00:33:27

And one of the people that I've been,

really interested in, of course is,

567

: 00:33:30

with the history of psychedelics is Ram

Dass, previously Richard Alpert, and

568

: 00:33:36

his, one of the things you mentioned

just struck me around one of the

569

: 00:33:39

things he says is that we're, we're

spiritual beings, we're, we're luminous

570

: 00:33:43

beings visiting humanity temporarily.

571

: 00:33:46

Right.

572

: 00:33:46

And then this, this idea, I

love the metaphor with the

573

: 00:33:48

fireflies that you mentioned.

574

: 00:33:51

I really appreciate your description

of the metaphors that you use in the

575

: 00:33:54

book as, as far as making the concepts

accessible and bridging the science

576

: 00:33:59

and the philosophy through metaphor.

577

: 00:34:00

I think that's so valuable.

578

: 00:34:03

So thank you for that.

579

: 00:34:04

Jose: Thank you for this opportunity.

580

: 00:34:06

Yeah.

581

: 00:34:06

I explain everything with metaphor

because, at the beginning, to

582

: 00:34:10

be honest, I was trying to explain how

the brain works, but I was thinking if I,

583

: 00:34:16

If I would, if I would be another person,

I will enjoy reading this book and I

584

: 00:34:20

will say, no, I will probably stop that.

585

: 00:34:22

and I want to, so to present something the

people enjoy, I mentioned, written a story

586

: 00:34:27

and introduce a of this, everything with

metaphor to explain everything in detail.

587

: 00:34:31

And this has been very, very

good, very good satisfaction.

588

: 00:34:37

Mike: Yeah.

589

: 00:34:37

And I also appreciate, and my condolences

on the loss of your father, and I

590

: 00:34:41

also appreciated your story of how you

took that loss and that pain, and you

591

: 00:34:46

transformed that into, something that

can be helpful for others in terms of

592

: 00:34:50

learning and growing through, challenge

and adversity and loss and yeah, for sure.

593

: 00:34:57

This idea of anti-fragility, I

think it's really interesting.

594

: 00:35:01

I had, not only with Nassim Taleb,

who kind of coined the term, and then

595

: 00:35:05

there's another book recently with, I

know I had mentioned in a recent episode.

596

: 00:35:08

the book that I really appreciated is,

Brett Weinstein and Heather Heying's

597

: 00:35:11

book, A Hunter-Gatherer's Survival Guide

to the 21st Century, something like that.

598

: 00:35:16

They talk a lot about anti fragility

and it's just so fascinating how,

599

: 00:35:20

Jose: you

600

: 00:35:20

Mike: biology in general, human

physiology is designed around

601

: 00:35:24

this concept of anti-fragility.

602

: 00:35:26

For sure.

603

: 00:35:28

Jose: Really exciting.

604

: 00:35:29

Yeah.

605

: 00:35:30

When I was, even, when I was, finding this

information and also, writing the book,

606

: 00:35:35

there is a moment that I promise that

I was crying, even putting all of this

607

: 00:35:39

it's crazy and yeah, it's really exciting

and also to share these concepts and

608

: 00:35:43

people, I am receiving a lot of very good

feedback, people are having this comfort,

609

: 00:35:47

something that fills your soul, you know?

610

: 00:35:52

Mike: Yeah.

611

: 00:35:52

Yeah, for sure.

612

: 00:35:53

Definitely.

613

: 00:35:54

I mean, I think that's, that's what's

exciting too, because I think, and even,

614

: 00:35:58

what I really appreciated even was in

the first few minutes of the podcast when

615

: 00:36:01

you encouraged me, and I hope viewers

and listeners participated in that.

616

: 00:36:04

If you didn't go back and just do the

little exercise that we did at the

617

: 00:36:08

beginning, closing your eyes, being

attentive to your heartbeat, being

618

: 00:36:12

attentive to your breathing even for a

few seconds, because it's fascinating.

619

: 00:36:16

I have a Vipassana meditation practice,

and so part of it is exactly using your

620

: 00:36:20

awareness in the moment, as you say,

when you're focused in on the sand going

621

: 00:36:26

through the threshold of the hourglass,

and you can take kind of notice of

622

: 00:36:31

these unconscious things that are very

miraculous when you think about it.

623

: 00:36:35

I mean, it's, isn't it miraculous how,

how many times our heartbeats in a single

624

: 00:36:40

day, not to mention in a lifetime that

we don't have any sort of sense of that

625

: 00:36:45

unless we pay attention to it, and how

the breath can be the gateway between

626

: 00:36:48

the conscious and the unconscious.

627

: 00:36:50

Similarly, we're unconscious of

breathing 99% of the time, maybe 99.9%

628

: 00:36:55

of the time.

629

: 00:36:56

But then when we focus in on it, then

oh yes, now I can control my breath.

630

: 00:37:00

Right.

631

: 00:37:00

So, so that's fascinating as

well for me, that, that aspect

632

: 00:37:03

of what you were discussing.

633

: 00:37:06

Jose: Yeah.

634

: 00:37:06

Yeah.

635

: 00:37:07

I think it's fascinating.

636

: 00:37:09

And also I think that nowadays, most

of the people that you think you to

637

: 00:37:12

practice meditation or something that,

people say, oh, I, I don't have time.

638

: 00:37:16

I am, and I was explaining

with the rate of, people with

639

: 00:37:20

depression, it's very, very high.

640

: 00:37:22

And I was trying to know that even, for

example, at the beginning of the day and

641

: 00:37:25

also at night, just try to, the same thing

that I say, put my attention on my body.

642

: 00:37:31

Or for example, another thing that

helps me a lot is in the morning doing

643

: 00:37:35

a cold shower, cold shower because

there is a moment, because we are

644

: 00:37:39

always like overthinking, overthinking.

645

: 00:37:41

But I really think when you are, when you

are under the cold shower, your brain, you

646

: 00:37:46

are not thinking about what are you going

to do tomorrow or what do you need to do?

647

: 00:37:49

You are in the present moment.

648

: 00:37:52

This to me is something

that helped me a lot.

649

: 00:37:54

I encourage the people to do it.

650

: 00:37:56

Mike: For sure.

651

: 00:37:56

I'm a big fan of cold exposure.

652

: 00:37:58

I do.

653

: 00:37:58

I've been doing cold showers and cold

plunges for at least a couple of years

654

: 00:38:03

now, and it's been transformational.

655

: 00:38:04

Really, it has.

656

: 00:38:05

I would also echo your

encouragement for others to try.

657

: 00:38:08

It's very straightforward.

658

: 00:38:09

Even just people who are reluctant.

659

: 00:38:11

I would really encourage you just

rinse with cold in the shower

660

: 00:38:15

for literally five seconds.

661

: 00:38:17

Try it, and then build it up.

662

: 00:38:19

Gradually your tolerance

builds up quickly.

663

: 00:38:21

And then as you say, it's not only

the mindfulness, but it's just getting

664

: 00:38:25

yourself used to some discomfort.

665

: 00:38:27

There's really a lot of research as you

know, José, in this idea of hormetic

666

: 00:38:31

stress as being something that can help

with, anxiety, depression, producing,

667

: 00:38:37

some sort of mild temporary controllable

suffering as a way of just building

668

: 00:38:41

up our resilience, anti fragility.

669

: 00:38:43

Right.

670

: 00:38:43

It's what we're talking about.

671

: 00:38:44

Jose: Absolutely.

672

: 00:38:45

Absolutely.

673

: 00:38:46

And this is fascinating because also I

know several people that ha are suffering,

674

: 00:38:50

depression, this kind of thing, and

they don't even, for example, they don't

675

: 00:38:54

practice any sport, and this is when

you practice, for example, a sport.

676

: 00:38:57

You have this, your body release, a

cocktail of hormones that feel, you

677

: 00:39:01

feel better and the thing, and and

you, for example, analyze the time

678

: 00:39:08

that the norm, the average of the

people I spend on the phone, doing an

679

: 00:39:11

a scroll and a scroll and a scroll.

680

: 00:39:12

What is, do you think, what is,

what is this doing to your brain?

681

: 00:39:15

It's

682

: 00:39:15

Your, the chemical, the chemical, all of

this chemical deregulating and the thing,

683

: 00:39:19

for the reason I encourage all of the

people, to live in the present moment.

684

: 00:39:22

Even for example, everything that helped

me a lot, I have a diary, but instead of,

685

: 00:39:27

for example, writing, with the computer,

there is some interesting paper that you

686

: 00:39:31

say when you do with handwriting, there

is established a new, new connection.

687

: 00:39:36

There is something.

688

: 00:39:40

Exciting.

689

: 00:39:41

And yeah.

690

: 00:39:42

Mike: Yeah.

691

: 00:39:42

It's amazing, this, this so that.

692

: 00:39:44

I love when you talked about the way

that it's important to help people

693

: 00:39:49

understand that neuroplasticity is not

a kind of scary, sort of complicated.

694

: 00:39:56

Well it is to a certain extent,

but it doesn't have to be some

695

: 00:39:59

kind of complicated topic.

696

: 00:40:00

And it's also something very personal

in that people need to understand

697

: 00:40:04

that, that as you say, neurons

that fire together wire together.

698

: 00:40:09

And so people can take advantage of that.

699

: 00:40:11

And just by doing, trying to build

little habits into their daily routine

700

: 00:40:15

and being intentional about it that

way, they actually are changing the

701

: 00:40:19

physiological neurochemical changes

in the brain that brings those

702

: 00:40:23

lasting, hopefully improvements

in health and wellness as you say.

703

: 00:40:27

Right.

704

: 00:40:28

Jose: Absolutely.

705

: 00:40:29

I 100% agree with you on that.

706

: 00:40:31

Mike: It's a very positive

and inspiring message.

707

: 00:40:34

it makes me think a lot of what you talked

about makes me think about, what Dr.

708

: 00:40:37

Paul Conti writes about in terms of,

overcoming trauma and thriving by virtue

709

: 00:40:43

of emphasis on meaning, but also agency.

710

: 00:40:46

And so the agency piece is, to me it's

yeah, understanding how we can harness

711

: 00:40:51

neuroplasticity in our own lives and

just try and take advantage of that and

712

: 00:40:55

think about, okay, well yes, I'm taking

agency over how my own brain is being

713

: 00:40:59

wired by just trying to do these small,

little healthy habits one thing at a time.

714

: 00:41:04

Jose: Absolutely.

715

: 00:41:05

Yeah.

716

: 00:41:05

I think that.

717

: 00:41:06

I agree with that.

718

: 00:41:08

Mike: And the other thing that's

interesting as well, I mean, I think

719

: 00:41:11

it's, so maybe you can explain a little

bit more about, one of the things that

720

: 00:41:14

resonated for me from your work and from

the book is this idea of clarity as love.

721

: 00:41:19

Because, in science and medicine,

there's almost a taboo against

722

: 00:41:23

talking about love, right?

723

: 00:41:25

Because we're sort of well, you have to

be detached from patients and you have

724

: 00:41:29

to be detached from research subjects.

725

: 00:41:30

Yeah.

726

: 00:41:30

I get, I get the boundaries issue.

727

: 00:41:32

I understand that

that's, that's important.

728

: 00:41:34

But ultimately, whether it's,

you're, you're a researcher, you're

729

: 00:41:37

passionate about what you're studying

or you're, and, or you're a clinician,

730

: 00:41:41

you're passionate about what you're

doing in terms of helping others.

731

: 00:41:44

Inevitably, there has to be

love at the center of that.

732

: 00:41:47

And I think it's the elephant in

the room that, that on the academic

733

: 00:41:51

and clinical side, people are

afraid to even say the word love.

734

: 00:41:54

Right.

735

: 00:41:54

But help us understand what your

idea of clarity as love is all about.

736

: 00:42:00

Jose: Love to me is the, the force

who, who moves the universe, because

737

: 00:42:04

everything we do, we put love in it.

738

: 00:42:07

For example, everything that you do,

for example, love in order, you perform

739

: 00:42:13

an activity, I try to do in the best

way that is, it's not something in

740

: 00:42:19

order to explain this in a proper

way is, I would say love, passion is

741

: 00:42:23

something that you do with purpose,

742

: 00:42:24

you know, that you put your, the

thing that it resonates with you.

743

: 00:42:29

And I think that when you do, this you,

with not the thing is going better.

744

: 00:42:32

And also when you love, there is a

lot of hormones that are released,

745

: 00:42:36

and it's something that is in, love is

the main force of the universe and is

746

: 00:42:42

something that moves us very deeply.

747

: 00:42:48

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

748

: 00:42:49

And maybe that is, yeah, it makes

sense that that's the, the unifying

749

: 00:42:53

principle that's tying together the

hardcore science with the ancient wisdom.

750

: 00:42:59

Yeah.

751

: 00:43:00

It's fascinating when you think about,

the way you described it at the very

752

: 00:43:04

beginning, your career in terms of

looking at the cyano bacteria as these

753

: 00:43:09

potential tiny little factories for

whatever, we might think that they would

754

: 00:43:14

be useful for helping us to produce or

how to understand nature better and,

755

: 00:43:19

and helping, helping to, reverse things

like climate change, this and that.

756

: 00:43:24

Right.

757

: 00:43:24

But then all the way

from, yeah, the miracle.

758

: 00:43:28

I love the idea of this is a miraculous,

magical kind of thing that's happening

759

: 00:43:32

there, whether it's the fireflies or

the cyanobacteria, how that's affecting

760

: 00:43:35

us and, and, and the universe in

general, but what holds it together?

761

: 00:43:39

It's surely something like love, right?

762

: 00:43:41

Like what you're saying.

763

: 00:43:43

Jose: Say again.

764

: 00:43:43

Say that with your question please.

765

: 00:43:45

Mike: Well, I guess it's

what's holding it together.

766

: 00:43:46

I mean, these are big picture kinds of

questions would we say God or love or

767

: 00:43:51

some universal sort of I'm not sure.

768

: 00:43:54

that's where you get into the intersection

between spirituality, religion,

769

: 00:44:00

these kinds of big picture questions.

770

: 00:44:02

So I guess I, I guess I'm just rambling

a little bit, but talking about how

771

: 00:44:06

this idea about love as a unifying

force, regardless if it's a person

772

: 00:44:10

is religious or if they have some

sort of atheistic worldview, I think

773

: 00:44:14

everyone can agree that there's a

unifying force of love out there, right?

774

: 00:44:18

Yeah,

775

: 00:44:18

Jose: absolutely.

776

: 00:44:19

The love, some people call, that kind

of God or they'll call the universe,

777

: 00:44:23

but I think there is a big force,

every, everything is connected.

778

: 00:44:27

For example, if I put on an example

with myself, I do a lot of metabolic

779

: 00:44:31

engineering, you know, like produce the

thing and I receive, another offer, a

780

: 00:44:34

job offer to do with another organism

that has no relevance, to do, you

781

: 00:44:39

know, like this cyanobacteria that

you can help with the climate change.

782

: 00:44:42

It's something I am a scientist because

I love, I have another skill and

783

: 00:44:45

everything, but it's this intersection,

that everything is connecting.

784

: 00:44:49

I think there's something

that is moving us.

785

: 00:44:53

Mike: Yeah.

786

: 00:44:55

Jose: These ethical questions.

787

: 00:44:56

Mike: Definitely.

788

: 00:44:57

Yeah.

789

: 00:44:57

It's, it's, it's really cool.

790

: 00:44:59

It's been such a great,

fascinating, wide ranging,

791

: 00:45:02

interesting, inspiring conversation.

792

: 00:45:05

José, I'm just so happy to have met

you and to talk to you, and it would

793

: 00:45:09

be great to have you back on the

podcast at some point in the future.

794

: 00:45:12

I just, I think we could continue this

kind of conversation for hours, honestly.

795

: 00:45:15

Jose: Absolutely.

796

: 00:45:16

Yeah.

797

: 00:45:16

I very grateful for that because

yeah, it's something related

798

: 00:45:19

with science and also with the,

everything with the consciousness.

799

: 00:45:23

And I am so, every, every month there

are releasing new papers in neuroscience

800

: 00:45:27

and I am reading what is going to

happen, what is going to the next step?

801

: 00:45:32

And, and yeah.

802

: 00:45:33

And continue a lot of doing a lot of

research in producing new components.

803

: 00:45:37

I know materialize, probably in

some months I will have something

804

: 00:45:42

interesting to talk about.

805

: 00:45:44

Mike: Yeah, for sure.

806

: 00:45:45

Well, that's fantastic.

807

: 00:45:46

José, Dr.

808

: 00:45:47

Moreno, thanks so much once again.

809

: 00:45:49

I mean, this has really been a powerful,

inspiring conversation and what I really

810

: 00:45:54

appreciate most is that, you're, you're

taking science and you're celebrating

811

: 00:45:58

science, but you're also protecting

its heart, the heart of science, right.

812

: 00:46:02

And the love that's behind it all.

813

: 00:46:03

And you're reminding us that complexity is

not necessarily, something to be, afraid

814

: 00:46:09

of, or something to be intimidated by.

815

: 00:46:11

Right.

816

: 00:46:12

Or other things you're describing the

difference between pleasure and happiness.

817

: 00:46:16

Also for that matter, things like

status is not necessarily wisdom.

818

: 00:46:21

and the clarity and the love, you

know, being clear about that may be

819

: 00:46:25

one of the most kinds of generous

things that we can offer one another.

820

: 00:46:29

Right.

821

: 00:46:29

In terms of that, as you say, when the

happiness comes from giving as opposed

822

: 00:46:33

to the pleasure coming from receiving.

823

: 00:46:35

Right?

824

: 00:46:36

Jose: Yeah.

825

: 00:46:36

Mike: Yeah.

826

: 00:46:37

So for viewers and listeners,

really, I would highly, highly

827

: 00:46:40

encourage you to check out Dr.

828

: 00:46:42

Moreno's book, Heartbeats

of Consciousness.

829

: 00:46:45

The links are in the show notes and you

can learn more about his content at Dr.

830

: 00:46:49

José Angel, how do you pronounce?

831

: 00:46:51

My Spanish is terrible.

832

: 00:46:52

Yeah.

833

: 00:46:53

Jose: Yeah.

834

: 00:46:53

You're doing very well.

835

: 00:46:54

Yeah.

836

: 00:46:55

Mike: José moreno.com.

837

: 00:46:57

Yep.

838

: 00:46:57

Yeah, so just that's the way it sounds.

839

: 00:47:00

D-R-J-O-S-E-A-N-G-E-L-M-O-R-E-N-O.com

840

: 00:47:05

For listeners who can't, see what

we've got going on the captions here.

841

: 00:47:09

Again, José, thank you so much.

842

: 00:47:11

Really appreciate your work, your

wisdom, your experience, your story.

843

: 00:47:16

Thank you so much, for building

bridges in this very ambitious tour

844

: 00:47:21

de force of a book that you have

with bringing science together with

845

: 00:47:25

philosophy, ancient wisdom in order

to help people live their best lives.

846

: 00:47:29

Thank you so much.

847

: 00:47:30

Jose: Thank you for this opportunity.

848

: 00:47:31

I'm very grateful for that.

849

: 00:47:34

Mike: Great.

850

: 00:47:35

Thanks again.

851

: 00:47:35

All the best.

852

: 00:47:36

Take care.

853

: 00:47:36

Jose: Thank you.

854

: 00:47:37

Take care.

855

: 00:47:38

Bye.

856

: 00:47:38

Mike: Okay, thanks.

857

: 00:47:38

Bye-bye.

858

: 00:47:40

Thanks so much again for joining me

today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

859

: 00:47:43

I hope that you enjoyed this fascinating

conversation as much as I did.

860

: 00:47:48

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

861

: 00:47:51

and subscribe to the podcast.

862

: 00:47:53

It really is the best way to make

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863

: 00:47:56

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864

: 00:48:01

Also, if you think that this

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865

: 00:48:04

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866

: 00:48:08

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867

: 00:48:11

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868

: 00:48:18

For more details about the content

that we discussed, please do check

869

: 00:48:22

out the links in the show notes

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870

: 00:48:25

Please ask questions, leave

comments, and give suggestions

871

: 00:48:29

for future topics that you'd be

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872

: 00:48:32

Then we can try to incorporate those

suggestions into future episodes.

873

: 00:48:37

Finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

874

: 00:48:39

It's gonna be another exciting journey

into the cutting edge of neuroscience,

875

: 00:48:43

clinical neurostimulation, evidence-based

interventional mental health, and

876

: 00:48:48

interesting discussions with leaders

in the health and wellness field.

877

: 00:48:51

So again, take care, stay curious.

878

: 00:48:54

Thanks for listening.

879

: 00:48:55

I really appreciate your time, interest,

and your attention, and I'll see you next

880

: 00:48:59

time on the Neurostimulation Podcast.