Dr. Jennifer Rodger - #31 - August 2, 2025

Mike: 00:00:10

Welcome back to the Neurostimulation Podcast, where we dive into the

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science, innovation, and clinical

frontiers of neurostimulation.

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I'm Michael Passmore, and today we're

going to be having a great conversation.

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I'm thrilled to be speaking with Dr.

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Jennifer Rodger, professor at the

University of Western Australia, and

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head of the Brain Plasticity Research

Group at the Perron Institute.

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Dr.

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Rodger's lab is pioneering research

into the mechanisms and safety of low

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intensity, repetitive transcranial

magnetic stimulation or rTMS,

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particularly in the developing brain.

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So we're going to be discussing, among

other things, a recent study that explored

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the effects of rTMS on adolescent mice,

what it reveals about brain plasticity

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during critical developmental windows,

and perhaps the broader implications

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for using neuromodulation in younger

humans as well for clinical purposes and

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also other types of research endeavors.

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Dr.

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Rodger, thank you so much for joining us.

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It's really a pleasure, to

meet you and I'm really looking

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forward to the conversation today.

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Jenny: Thank you, Michael, me as well.

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Mike: Great.

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So maybe, if you don't mind, taking

a few minutes just to introduce

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yourself to us and help the audience

to understand, a bit more about you,

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your work and your experience and what

your lab is focusing in on these days.

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Jenny: Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Please call me Jenny.

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I'm a neuroscientist and I'm

based in Western Australia, in the

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city of beautiful city of Perth.

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And I suppose my background's a little

bit unusual because I come from a

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biochemistry background, so I studied

organic chemistry and biochemistry

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and molecular biology, but I always

wanted to get into neuroscience.

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And, over the years I've studied

a range of different animal models

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of neuroscience, so I've always

had an interest in development.

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Brain plasticity, how the

brain repairs after injury.

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and as you know, I developed my own

research stream emerging through postdocs

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and, various different lab experiences.

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rTMS was a sort of mystery to me,

and I, I have to admit that I was

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a TMS skeptic when I first started

working in this, in this field.

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And I had a number of people around

me who were saying, it's amazing.

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It changes the brain, we can use

it to treat all of these things.

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And I was very skeptical.

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And when, a colleague challenged me

and said, well, what would it take

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for you to believe in, in TMS to

really believe that it, it works?

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I said, well, you know, we, we should

look in animal models because we can

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actually then get inside the brain and

look at pathways and look at cells and

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see the effects of TMS on the brain.

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And, that would convince me

if we could see things and.

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So we applied for a grant and we got the

grant, and that's where my, research focus

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now is based around TMS understanding

how it works, how it can be applied,

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and that all stems from that initial

argument and, and that grant application

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to, to convince myself that our TMS was

actually having an effect on the brain.

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So now my research extends not only

in the mechanisms, but we started

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working in translational neuroscience,

trying to find ways to translate

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basic findings into human practice.

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It's, it's challenging.

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I can't say we've had any major

successes yet, but it's been really

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fascinating journey and I look forward

to talking, about lots of different

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aspects of this with you today.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Fantastic.

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That's so interesting.

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Thanks so much for explaining that.

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I think it's.

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Yeah, I've talked to so many people

who, myself included, who, have been

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skeptical about neurostimulation.

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And I think part of what's interesting

is because I'm thinking of this, I'll

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put it up, I, I'll show this picture

that I'm thinking of, but it has to do

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with the history of magnetism and, and

how, a hundred years ago people were

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doing things putting magnets towards the

head and, and, and so it does engender a

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sense of skepticism and that's it lends

people understandably to wonder to what

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extent this is a scam or there's snake

oil kinds of clinical applications.

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And I think even currently there's,

there's this potential for, unscrupulous

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people to be producing devices that are

nothing more than sham But now 20 years

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on after, really it's been starting to

kind of catch on clinically, there's

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so much evidence and understanding

more about the basic research, that,

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that you and your team are, are

involved with is extremely interesting.

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Yeah.

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So I'm looking forward

to talking about it also.

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Jenny: Thank you.

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Yeah.

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I think it's also TMS is unusual, as

you pointed out, that it sort of, it

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happened and the medical device suddenly

became used and employed everywhere.

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And unlike a, a drug or, you know,

most common interventions, there

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hasn't been that body of evidence

built up before translating to humans.

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So it's almost working backwards.

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And now we've got something that works

sort of most of the time or some of

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the time, uh, going backwards and

trying to understand why it works and

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why it doesn't work in some cases.

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I think it's, it's, it's

a really interesting area.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, and just thinking about, this

particular study in terms of the animal

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model, it does bring back memories.

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I did some work study kinds of,

terms in, in undergrad in animal

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biology lab at UBC in Vancouver here.

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And so I, I can recognize the value

of this kind of research, and I'm

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particularly curious about the

logistics of developing miniature

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TMS coils, rodent sized coils.

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So help, help me understand

how that all worked.

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That must have been an

interesting journey.

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Jenny: It was a very interesting journey.

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I, I have, when, when I give talks, I

have a slide where I show a human head

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with a human TMS coil and saying, and

so, you know, I got this grant and we

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were funded to do TMS in, and I put up

a, a mouse to scale with the human head.

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And everybody laughs because you see how

huge the coil is relative to the mouse.

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And there's no way that we could use

a human coil, at least in my opinion.

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And having spoken with a lot of

other people, the whole, the strength

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I think of human TMS is that it

delivers focal stimulation to a

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particular place in the brain so that

you can target particular networks

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and, you know, alter connectivity.

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And that as we know more

about it, we think that that

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vocality is really important.

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But when you try and do that in

a mouse with a big coil, you're

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stimulating the whole animal.

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So it was really important for us to try

and find a way to miniaturize the coils.

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And two people really

were instrumental in that.

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A colleague, professor Rachel

Sherrod, who works in Paris, she

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was the one who actually said, we

need to miniaturize these coils.

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And she developed some prototypes and.

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Had lots of long chats and arguments

about it, but then I had an amazing PhD

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student, Alex Tang, who's now got his own

lab in TMS and brain aging particularly.

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And for his PhD he worked with the

physics department at our university

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in wound coils on a proper coil

wounder, and developed some modeling

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skills using the electromagnetic

field modeling programs like console.

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It was before things

like Simin nibs existed.

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So it was, it was really hardcore

physics and, electromagnetism

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theory that we got into.

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And it took him, the best part of

a year to get a working prototype.

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We had to buy power supplies, we had

to buy waveform generators, look at

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the different shapes of the pulses.

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and yeah, it was, it was quite a journey.

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But those small coils.

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Fantastic because they can stimulate

a quarter of a, a mouse brain, which

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I think is, it's not as good as

in humans, but it's getting there.

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The only disadvantage is that because

the coils are small, the intensity

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of the magnetic field is very weak,

so that means that we can't replicate

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motor evoked potentials that are such,

classic conventions in human TMS.

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We can't deliver stimulation at the

intensities that are clinically relevant.

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So that's led us to take a

number of, different pathways.

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In the study that you spoke about looking

at developing brains, we've had to focus

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on that concept of peri focal stimulation

because even though you have a core of

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high intensity stimulation at the hotspot.

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There's a surrounding, I don't want

to say aura, but lower intensity

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emanation of magnetic field around

that hotspot, which is still activating

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brain cells and having an impact.

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So from that point of view, I

think the coils can be useful in

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understanding some aspects of TMS,

but it's clearly not a perfect model.

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But then no model's perfect.

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Mike: Right?

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Yeah.

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Well it's, it's interesting just

by itself in terms of what affects

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that type of magnetic field.

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And what the observations are and how

those changes might then be relevant

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in terms of clinical applications.

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Jenny: Exactly.

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I hope that it's contributing.

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Sometimes I ask myself, how relevant these

models really are, but then you there,

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if we can get effects with low intensity

magnetic fields, then do we really

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need high intensity magnetic fields?

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Are there opportunities to change

the parameters and explore other

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mechanisms that might have.

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More impact in other disorders or have

different effects on brand cells, mm-hmm.

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Again, I think all of that

discovery is important.

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Mike: Yeah, for sure.

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And I think it makes sense just

in terms of understanding the

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emerging breadth of potential.

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Neurostimulation applications, that

are coming out, whether it's tDCS or

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transcranial focused ultrasound or so.

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So it's clearly not just limited

to, the specificity of focal, High

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frequency or low frequency rTMS in a

human model, So it's super interesting.

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So then, given what you were just saying,

what kinds of, I guess, maybe if it's

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presumptuous to ask or if we're not quite

there yet, but what do you envision then

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as perhaps a potential translational

bridge between what you've learned with

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the rodent studies and potential clinical

applications for humans down the road?

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Jenny: Well, I suppose the most advanced,

example of that is work that we've

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done with Kaylene Young, a colleague

in Tasmania at the Menzies Institute.

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And a few years ago we started working

out what is TMS doing not only to

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neurons, but also to other brain cells.

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and the brain isn't

just made up of neurons.

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They're astrocytes, they're

oligodendrocytes, but all the

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blood vessels, microglia and their,

colleagues in Germany who are doing

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a lot of work around microglia.

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But the work with Kaylene was

interesting 'cause we focused

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particularly on oligodendrocytes.

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Her lab is expert in multiple sclerosis

research, and she found that the low

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intensity stimulation would improve

the survival of oligodendrocytes.

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And in mouse models of multiple sclerosis,

it will improve, remyelination, it

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will increase the amount of myelin that

they produce, that the cells produce.

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So it's actually a completely unexpected

outcome of rTMS Electromagnetic

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stimulation of the brain has the potential

to improve myelination and then we've

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translated the circular coils and mice,

stimulating large areas of the brain in

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humans, we've measured equivalent magnetic

fields so that the, the cortex of the

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mouse was receiving a certain intensity.

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And we've matched that in humans

through, again, a lot of modeling and

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back of the envelope, calculations.

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And we're in, phase two clinical trials

now, looking at efficacy of that.

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So for us, for me, it's not really

my story, it's Kaylene's story, but

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it's been a great privilege to be

involved in that and see how some

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really basic questions that our devices

help to ask have actually led to some

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new innovations in, in human trials.

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So I'm hoping that for things

like depression and anxiety,

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our work will again, contribute

to that in, in the future.

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But I think there's a lot of potential

for it, for there to be a strong

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translational pipeline between

the animal models and the human.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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That's fascinating.

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I think that's really interesting to

think about how these technologies are

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affecting systems in the brain, aside

from the neuronal systems and pathways

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and connectivity and neuroplasticity,

these, the glial cells are often just

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underrecognized in terms of their

importance I'm sure it's just a limitless

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kind of area for, for investigating

with these kind of technologies

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. So the other part of it that I

was fascinated by, is just this

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idea of the, the impact of the

TMS on the, the developmental

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piece, you know, the, the, the

neurodevelopmental sort of change there.

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So I'm just curious if you don't

mind, you know, that particular study,

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so as I understand it was targeting

visual cortex during an important

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period of the mouse development.

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So can you tell us a little bit

about that and what, what the study

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basically yielded in terms of findings?

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Jenny: Yeah.

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That, that's the study that we're, we're

particularly interested in at the moment.

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you know, TMS is approved in adults for

treating major depressive disorder and one

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of the real attractions I think of TMS is

that there are very few side effects and

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we know that young people who experience

depression and anxiety are, they really

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don't respond to medications very well.

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The medications are often developed in

adults, they're not well adapted to use.

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There's a lot of side effects.

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youth themselves feel a little bit

disempowered when they just get given a

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pill and told to go away and get better.

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So there's a lot of interest in

trying to find new treatments.

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And TMS is, has been

trialed in young people.

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There's reasonable, I'd say

actually very good safety evidence

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that there are no side effects

beyond what you see in adults.

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And the young people tolerate it well

and they seem to respond reasonably well.

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The efficacy, I think, is

still not particularly.

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There's not a lot of evidence yet

for the efficacy, but because the,

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the developing brain in humans,

the brain continues to develop, to

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develop until roughly the age of 25.

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So if you're stimulating the brain in a

young person, it, it is an opportunity

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that, could be fantastic because the

brain is very plastic in a teenager.

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Or in a child.

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So you have great potential to modify

it and to, repair anything that

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might be, abnormal circuitry or neuro

develop neurodevelopmental disorders.

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But you also have a big risk

that any changes you make in

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that period have the potential to

affect lifelong brain functioning.

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And in humans, we've had

TMS in the population for

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probably more than 20 years.

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So I think there's a lot of

confidence in adults that we're not.

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Predisposing people to neurodegenerative

conditions, and we're not causing

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lesions, and we're not altering

DNA or giving people cancer.

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So we're confident about that for adults.

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But children really are, I don't want to

say vulnerable, but susceptible to change.

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And one of the questions that we've

had from speaking to young people

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with anxiety and depression is we

love the idea of TMS, but what am,

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what's my brain going to look like in

20 years or in 30 years when I'm 80?

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Is it going to impact, who I am

and, and how my brain works later?

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So we thought, well we can't

do that in people 'cause it's,

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nobody's gonna fund us for 50 years.

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Much as we would love to

get funded for 50 years.

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It's not going to happen.

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So we thought animal models are

a perfect way to look at this.

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We can take a young mouse.

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the adolescent period is

roughly up to about 40 days.

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give the animal TMS during that

period and then just see what happens.

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And the paper that you mentioned that we

published in brain stimulation last month

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really describes that short term outcome.

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So we did the very simple experiment.

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We gave the animal our low intensity

stimulation, arguing again, that we're

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looking because we can't deliver the focal

stimulation to the prefrontal cortex mass,

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we can still deliver the peri focal, the

low intensity that a child would receive.

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And we stimulated the visual cortex

because in mice it's very difficult to

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measure things like mood and depression,

and those models are quite controversial.

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Whereas in the visual system,

you've got a great readout of, the

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organization of the visual system

connectivity, because there's a point

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to point mapping between the retina

and all of the visual brain centers.

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So the actual connectivity

is easy to measure.

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You then also have a behavioral readout.

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Can the animal still see, can

it respond to visual stimuli?

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So although it does abstract the

model away from humans, it's actually

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a really powerful model because it

allows us to examine the anatomy, the

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cellular composition and the behavior.

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I suppose in the reverse order.

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You look at the behavior first,

and then in those same animals,

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you can euthanize the animals and

then examine the brain structure.

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So that was the idea behind the study that

we wanted a really clear readout of the

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structure and function of the brain after

it had received TMS during development.

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So we were the results are compelling and

we were still there's a lot more to do

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in a nutshell, there were no, there was

no impact that we could find on any of

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the anatomical organization of the brain.

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There were no changes to any of

the neurotransmitter markers,

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but I'll come back to that later.

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There didn't seem to be any inflammation.

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We used some fairly broad tools to look

at that, but there was a behavioral,

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change and that really puzzled us

because we didn't expect to see that.

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And the behavioral

change was very specific.

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It was, visual motor integration.

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So when you, the test that we use is

called, an optic kinetic nystagmus test.

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And all that means is it's basically

your eye tracking movement.

303

: 00:17:37

So when you sit in a train or a car and

you're looking out the windows, your eyes

304

: 00:17:41

flick back and forth, as the landscape

passes by, because it's, it's a reflex,

305

: 00:17:46

we can't really control it that well.

306

: 00:17:48

but our eyes follow moving objects.

307

: 00:17:51

And you can do this in mice.

308

: 00:17:52

You put them in a, a moving circular drum.

309

: 00:17:56

As the stripes move past the

animal, their heads and eyes track

310

: 00:18:00

the stripes and you can count the

number of times that they do that.

311

: 00:18:03

So after TMS, we found that

the mice did less tracking.

312

: 00:18:07

They essentially didn't follow moving

stripes as often as control mice did.

313

: 00:18:12

And so we went back to the anatomy and

we looked at the different regions we had

314

: 00:18:17

traced and found absolutely no change.

315

: 00:18:20

And there.

316

: 00:18:23

You know, though we looked

at the main visual pathways,

317

: 00:18:25

but there are always more.

318

: 00:18:27

So we can't rule out that other visual

pathways might be disorganized, but

319

: 00:18:31

because the deficit involved both vision

and movement, I think it's actually a

320

: 00:18:37

really interesting idea to think that

TMS might have compromised some of

321

: 00:18:40

that sensory motor integration pathway.

322

: 00:18:43

So it's not just about vision, it's about

how vision integrates with movement.

323

: 00:18:48

In development, those

processes are really complex.

324

: 00:18:51

They're still developing, and it's

possible that by providing stimulation

325

: 00:18:56

and providing additional activity,

TMS essentially increases the

326

: 00:19:00

electrical activity in the brain.

327

: 00:19:02

we could have compromised the development

328

: 00:19:04

Mike: pathways.

329

: 00:19:06

Jenny: So is that important?

330

: 00:19:08

does that strike fear into

my heart for TMS in young,

331

: 00:19:11

people, it, it honestly doesn't.

332

: 00:19:14

Partly because we're looking at

a model that's very abstract.

333

: 00:19:17

we're looking at a visual system.

334

: 00:19:18

We're looking at sensory pathways,

sensory motor pathways, and the

335

: 00:19:22

deficit was very small and the deficit

happened immediately after TMS.

336

: 00:19:26

So we're thinking probably if we stopped

TMS and let the animals just live

337

: 00:19:31

normally for a couple of weeks, the brain

would probably restore normal function

338

: 00:19:35

because that's what the brain does, and

especially in young people where the

339

: 00:19:39

brain remains plastic for a long time.

340

: 00:19:43

also we don't really know what

would happen in an abnormal brain.

341

: 00:19:48

So a brain that had, connectivity related

to depression or anxiety like symptoms.

342

: 00:19:54

But what is the equivalent of

sensory motor integration in those

343

: 00:19:58

brain regions involved in mood

regulation and emotional processes?

344

: 00:20:03

So I think it's interesting.

345

: 00:20:05

It raises questions and it certainly

raises, Just concerns that there

346

: 00:20:09

is something going on in the young

brain that doesn't probably happen in

347

: 00:20:13

the same way in, in an adult brain.

348

: 00:20:15

Mike: Mm-hmm.

349

: 00:20:16

Yeah, that's really interesting.

350

: 00:20:18

I mean, it's certainly reassuring

that there were no concerning

351

: 00:20:21

findings on the cellular and

neurotransmitter and inflammation side.

352

: 00:20:26

Yeah.

353

: 00:20:26

Mm-hmm.

354

: 00:20:27

I can see how there's caution that's

required in terms of interpreting

355

: 00:20:31

those behavioral findings in terms of

the applicability to humans For sure.

356

: 00:20:36

Jenny: Yeah, I think the, the

neurotransmitter question was tricky.

357

: 00:20:39

We, we did additional experiments

in response to reviewer comments

358

: 00:20:42

on the paper saying, well, if

it's not anatomy, what is it?

359

: 00:20:45

You have to have an explanation.

360

: 00:20:47

So we went back and looked at the ex

and inhibitory balance in the brain.

361

: 00:20:50

But again, animal experiments are

quite tricky because we wanted to

362

: 00:20:55

use the same animals for everything.

363

: 00:20:57

So we have the behavioral

outcomes in the animals.

364

: 00:21:00

We have the anatomical tracing, and

then in the same brains we actually

365

: 00:21:04

studied the neurotransmitter and,

inhibitory excitatory balance.

366

: 00:21:07

But after TMS has stopped, by the time

you've done the behavioral experiments

367

: 00:21:12

and the anatomical tracing, it takes

about a week to 10 days to do all of that.

368

: 00:21:16

So the effects of TMS are already

starting to wear off at the time that

369

: 00:21:20

you euthanize the animals and start to

look at the neurotransmitter profiles.

370

: 00:21:24

So.

371

: 00:21:25

No, we, we were really limited in

how much we could interpret that

372

: 00:21:28

because so much time had gone by.

373

: 00:21:29

So at the moment we're, you

know, continuing on from,

374

: 00:21:33

from those experiments.

375

: 00:21:34

We're hoping to do some long-term

studies, not even, three months

376

: 00:21:38

after the TMS, but animals live

for roughly 18 months to 24 months.

377

: 00:21:42

So that is within the capacity of

a funding body where we can have

378

: 00:21:46

studies that TMS mice in youth and

study them all the way into old age.

379

: 00:21:53

And that will give us a much more

detailed time course of what's going on.

380

: 00:21:56

And we have the capacity also to

take different cohorts of animals to

381

: 00:22:00

specifically address questions like

excitatory and inflammatory balance, as

382

: 00:22:04

well as, putting them in the MRI machine

scanning, brain connectivity, and, and

383

: 00:22:08

getting much bigger picture of what's.

384

: 00:22:12

Mike: Yeah.

385

: 00:22:12

That's fascinating.

386

: 00:22:13

I mean, that totally makes sense

in terms of the next steps and how

387

: 00:22:16

to sort out all of these questions.

388

: 00:22:18

For sure.

389

: 00:22:19

And I think it's, I certainly

feel reassured as well.

390

: 00:22:22

I'm glad to hear that

you're, you're being, right.

391

: 00:22:25

Immersed in, in this work or are

also reassured around the likelihood

392

: 00:22:29

that this is gonna be a safe.

393

: 00:22:31

Clinical application in, in

children and adolescents.

394

: 00:22:34

And I guess just thinking about the recent

FDA approval of rTMS in adolescents with

395

: 00:22:40

major depressive disorder, I think that,

as you said, not only the, the long now

396

: 00:22:45

20 plus year history of effectiveness

and safety in adults is, is reassuring.

397

: 00:22:50

But I also think, maybe this is

more of a general speculation

398

: 00:22:54

based on the idea that.

399

: 00:22:57

Young brains are more plastic in general.

400

: 00:22:59

It would strike me that, that then would

by itself be a reassuring factor in terms

401

: 00:23:03

of, well, if we're, if we're, imposing

this energetic change on the brain in a

402

: 00:23:08

therapeutic sense, then hopefully the.

403

: 00:23:14

The baseline neuroplasticity of the

developing brain is, is is almost a buffer

404

: 00:23:18

that would help to guard against any

long term side effects or, or, or, yeah.

405

: 00:23:23

Other morbidity issues that might

some level be conceivably related

406

: 00:23:26

to the short term application

of the, of the magnetic field.

407

: 00:23:31

Jenny: Yeah, I completely

agree and I think.

408

: 00:23:34

Also we, you know, this is a whole

other question, but we don't know

409

: 00:23:37

if the same parameters that work in

adults are also effective in humans.

410

: 00:23:40

We have a fairly limited, um, well,

the parameters with TMS are unlimited.

411

: 00:23:46

You know, any combination of frequency

and intensity and number of pulses, it's

412

: 00:23:51

a, it's a bit of a scary, uh, area to go

into 'cause there's so much possibility.

413

: 00:23:57

In adults, we've sort of narrowed it

down to maybe two or three frequencies

414

: 00:24:01

that we think are effective and that

seem to give good outcomes, whether

415

: 00:24:04

those work in children or whether

it's worth actually re-exploring some

416

: 00:24:08

of those stimulation parameters to

try and find some, find something

417

: 00:24:11

that's more specific to children.

418

: 00:24:13

I wouldn't even know how to start

going about that, um, apart from

419

: 00:24:17

attacking that huge parameter space.

420

: 00:24:20

But I think that it's a bit like

with drugs, we can't just assume

421

: 00:24:23

that children are small adults.

422

: 00:24:24

You know, they're, they have

different brain chemistry, they

423

: 00:24:26

have different brain structure.

424

: 00:24:28

Neuroplasticity is hugely

significant at that stage.

425

: 00:24:31

So I think, it's important to think

carefully and make sure that we,

426

: 00:24:35

we do TMS properly in young people.

427

: 00:24:39

Mike: Mm-hmm.

428

: 00:24:39

Yeah, it makes sense.

429

: 00:24:40

And I think it also makes sense in

terms of what I hear a lot of people

430

: 00:24:44

talking about, and it makes perfect

sense, is just this idea of tailoring

431

: 00:24:48

protocols to, to an individual's needs.

432

: 00:24:51

So whether it's age on, on the young

end or even on the later life end or

433

: 00:24:57

other, other aspects of, of particular

neuropsychiatric disorder or other.

434

: 00:25:03

I'm not sure.

435

: 00:25:04

I mean anything just as, as a

medication, I think probably this is

436

: 00:25:07

a limitation of the legacy medication.

437

: 00:25:10

I think obviously psychotherapy,

there's more room for tailoring

438

: 00:25:13

necessary obviously, but on the

medication side, perhaps not.

439

: 00:25:16

Right?

440

: 00:25:17

So maybe with a multimodal approach

to treatment with tailored protocols,

441

: 00:25:21

depending on what the research shows

across the age spectrum, that it

442

: 00:25:25

makes sense that this is the sort

of work that would help to inform

443

: 00:25:29

those eventual clinical guidelines

and protocols being accepted.

444

: 00:25:34

Jenny: No, absolutely.

445

: 00:25:35

And TMS is, is actually really well set up

for TA for being tailored because there's,

446

: 00:25:40

choice not only around the region that's

being targeted, but also all of that.

447

: 00:25:44

Then sort of electromagnetic parameters

with the pulses and the intensities.

448

: 00:25:49

And I think we've seen with things like

the Saint Protocol coming out, that there

449

: 00:25:53

is a lot of opportunity for tailoring.

450

: 00:25:54

There's quite a lot of excitement

around even just very simple.

451

: 00:25:58

Targeted, tailoring brain regions

based on connectivity patterns.

452

: 00:26:01

So I think there's, you know, we've

taken the first steps and it's now

453

: 00:26:07

open to, to a lot of opportunities.

454

: 00:26:10

As you mentioned, I think the combinations

as well, TMS combined with medication, TMS

455

: 00:26:15

combined with psychotherapy, those sorts

of, really integrated treatments are, are

456

: 00:26:19

really exciting and for youth where we

know, they really want to be involved.

457

: 00:26:24

Well, the youth that we've spoken to

in, in Australia, they really want

458

: 00:26:27

to be involved in their treatment.

459

: 00:26:29

They want to feel like they're empowered

to be part of the decision making process.

460

: 00:26:34

And I think the opportunity to tailor

treatments and to get them engaged in

461

: 00:26:37

making decisions around that is, is gonna

be really powerful because that will

462

: 00:26:41

also support their own mental wellbeing.

463

: 00:26:44

Mike: Definitely.

464

: 00:26:45

Yeah, definitely.

465

: 00:26:46

I think that's a part of the issue

historically with the legacy approaches

466

: 00:26:50

is, is exactly as you say, it's that

it's the way that clinicians kind of get

467

: 00:26:54

sucked into the whole pharmaco industrial

complex and they're only insured for a

468

: 00:26:59

limited amount of time, which makes it.

469

: 00:27:02

Easier, shall I say, to write a

prescription and, and then, book

470

: 00:27:06

an appointment in a few weeks time

thing, and I can see how already.

471

: 00:27:09

Younger, younger folks would be already

disinclined to come in the first place.

472

: 00:27:13

And then if that's the sort of

approach, then, they're justified

473

: 00:27:16

in having a skepticism around that.

474

: 00:27:18

So hopefully these kinds of novel

treatment approaches and more ability

475

: 00:27:22

to ask questions and be interested

in the technology that will help

476

: 00:27:26

to foster a sense of agency and

involvement with their own treatment.

477

: 00:27:32

Definitely.

478

: 00:27:33

It's fascinating.

479

: 00:27:34

The other thing that's interesting

that I was thinking just now is the

480

: 00:27:36

potential for perhaps the tailoring to

involve not only as you were saying,

481

: 00:27:41

a given neurostimulation option, plus

medication, plus psychotherapy, but.

482

: 00:27:47

Of neurostimulation options like

TMS and then maybe something like

483

: 00:27:51

TDCS for maintenance treatment,

something along those lines.

484

: 00:27:54

and it's also interesting to think

about, I'm wondering a bit about whether,

485

: 00:27:57

whether you're, based, it's probably too

early to say, but if, if, in terms of

486

: 00:28:02

thoughts that you and your team had about

future directions to explore with this

487

: 00:28:06

kind of research or potential clinical

implications, was there any sense that

488

: 00:28:11

there might be some applicability for.

489

: 00:28:15

Purely considered neurodevelopmental

disorders, like along the lines

490

: 00:28:19

of, say, autistic spectrum

disorder or those sorts of things.

491

: 00:28:23

Jenny: Yeah.

492

: 00:28:23

We, we've spoken to, there's obviously

a lot of interest in using TMS for

493

: 00:28:27

things like autism and A DHD as well

is, is a question that we get a lot and

494

: 00:28:32

speaking to clinicians, they say, but,

TMS alters dopamine and it targets these

495

: 00:28:36

brain regions and we know from the MRI

studies it, it activates these pathways.

496

: 00:28:40

Why aren't you using it for a DHD?

497

: 00:28:43

And it, you know, I don't, I

don't know the answer to that.

498

: 00:28:48

I think the, again, it's this sort of

clinical trial versus animal models

499

: 00:28:52

and, sequence that, we haven't got the

animal, we, there are animal models

500

: 00:28:56

for things like autism and A DHD, but.

501

: 00:28:59

Again, they don't always model all

the different aspects of, of the human

502

: 00:29:03

disorder and treating people with

autism and A DHD is, especially, a

503

: 00:29:08

lot of them tend to be young people.

504

: 00:29:10

The ethical considerations around

that are are quite complex.

505

: 00:29:14

So I think there are a lot of

difficulties in moving into that

506

: 00:29:16

space and getting TMS approved for

youth with depression is probably a

507

: 00:29:20

first step in moving towards that.

508

: 00:29:22

It's the easy way in that population.

509

: 00:29:25

Certainly clinicians that we've spoken

to are really excited about possibility

510

: 00:29:30

and, parents and children as well.

511

: 00:29:33

You know, the people need, I think,

better treatments overall for those

512

: 00:29:37

neurodevelopmental disorders, and

TMS certainly has the capacity

513

: 00:29:41

to modify the developing brain.

514

: 00:29:43

As you know, a lot of people have

shown we're not the only people

515

: 00:29:46

who have done work in development

as a lab in, in Germany that did

516

: 00:29:50

some work in developing rodents.

517

: 00:29:53

looking particularly at the critical

period and they showed some really

518

: 00:29:56

interesting effects around the inhibitory

excitatory balance, particularly

519

: 00:29:59

paval parvalbumin into neurons.

520

: 00:30:02

Alia Benal in class, Funke did some great

work on, characterizing changes in those

521

: 00:30:06

in neurons that we know are involved

in autism and regulating activity.

522

: 00:30:11

Brain pathways.

523

: 00:30:12

So there's a little bit of preclinical

evidence, but translating that.

524

: 00:30:17

Complex and you want to get it right.

525

: 00:30:19

I think particularly for something like A

DHD where balance, it's all about balance.

526

: 00:30:23

Autism probably as well, and, and

it's important to get it right.

527

: 00:30:29

Mike: Mm-hmm.

528

: 00:30:29

Mm-hmm.

529

: 00:30:30

Yeah.

530

: 00:30:30

I'm curious in terms of follow up

studies or ideas based on, the, the

531

: 00:30:35

study that we're talking about with

the visual cortex development mm-hmm.

532

: 00:30:39

would it be feasibly something to

think about in terms of potential for a

533

: 00:30:43

follow up study that looks at perhaps.

534

: 00:30:46

Such as auditory processing

or executive function.

535

: 00:30:49

Thinking about o other aspects of brain

function that are critical for, say,

536

: 00:30:53

learning and, and, and success in,

in, in academia or social settings?

537

: 00:30:59

Jenny: Mm.

538

: 00:30:59

That, that's a great question.

539

: 00:31:00

We've, I work with a colleague who's,

an auditory physiologist and we've done

540

: 00:31:04

some work on tinnitus and, and TMS.

541

: 00:31:07

And I've spoken to her about some way

that we could use the auditory system.

542

: 00:31:10

there are techniques like, mismatch

negativity and oddball paradigms

543

: 00:31:14

where you can measure the brain's

response to different auditory stimuli.

544

: 00:31:18

so we we're we've spoken

about that a little bit.

545

: 00:31:21

but you're right.

546

: 00:31:22

It's the idea of, of looking at.

547

: 00:31:24

More cognitive and emotional type

tasks around executive function

548

: 00:31:29

and, social interactions as well.

549

: 00:31:31

we're starting to develop

those paradigms in lab.

550

: 00:31:34

we're almost spoiled for choice.

551

: 00:31:36

I can't say, you know, we've, we've

gone in the direction of extending

552

: 00:31:40

the timeframe of the studies, as

I said, for a couple of years, and

553

: 00:31:43

we've focused in that long-term study

on a particular model of anxiety.

554

: 00:31:49

Which is a prenatal stress model.

555

: 00:31:52

So the animals that we're taking out two

years with TMS do actually have altered

556

: 00:31:56

behavior in things like, the elevated

plus maze where you measure anxiety.

557

: 00:32:00

The amount of time that rodents spend

in open spaces indicates anxiety.

558

: 00:32:04

And we're also looking at social

interaction in those animals.

559

: 00:32:07

So how much time they spend with familiar

or novel, conspecifics, so animals, other

560

: 00:32:13

mice that the mice have never met before.

561

: 00:32:16

So we're, trying to build in a wider

range of behavioral tests that are

562

: 00:32:20

more relevant to, mood disorders.

563

: 00:32:23

and again, I think once we have a

better idea of what's happening over

564

: 00:32:26

this two year period, we can then go

back in again and focus on expanding

565

: 00:32:30

particular areas or focusing on

a particular time point as well.

566

: 00:32:36

And the big question that

everybody asks us is, how about

567

: 00:32:38

maintenance TMS maintenance?

568

: 00:32:40

How are you going to give the mice

maintenance TMS at six months?

569

: 00:32:44

Oh no, you've just added another

6,000 million mice to our experiment.

570

: 00:32:48

It's just, there's only so much

that we can do, and there's

571

: 00:32:51

so many questions to answer.

572

: 00:32:53

Mike: Mm-hmm.

573

: 00:32:54

Yeah.

574

: 00:32:55

There must be a challenge to think

about in some ways how to balance

575

: 00:32:58

the focusing on the safety with.

576

: 00:33:02

Changes that might correlate with

effectiveness in human clinical models.

577

: 00:33:08

Jenny: And I think that the

safety, the safety issue, we're

578

: 00:33:11

really confident that TMS is safe.

579

: 00:33:14

the changes in behavior that

we've identified were, we're

580

: 00:33:18

hoping that we'll be able to show

that they spontaneously revert.

581

: 00:33:22

if not, I think the sorts of

changes around integration in

582

: 00:33:27

sensory motor brain function.

583

: 00:33:29

We know that there are very good

physiotherapy type interventions

584

: 00:33:32

that can act on those things.

585

: 00:33:34

So if we do need to combine TMS with some

sort of rehabilitation therapy afterwards

586

: 00:33:38

to make sure that those pathways are

restored, I think that's very feasible.

587

: 00:33:43

'cause there's a good background

on those sorts of interventions.

588

: 00:33:45

so the safety I think.

589

: 00:33:48

we're confident that there's not

going to be any major problems.

590

: 00:33:52

it's just making sure that the

efficacy is really targeted.

591

: 00:33:55

I think that's one of the

big goals of the lab moment.

592

: 00:33:58

Mike: Mm-hmm.

593

: 00:33:59

So would you say that, that there's some,

there's some validity in the notion that

594

: 00:34:04

then perhaps the less focused magnetic

field might be almost more akin to TDCS,

595

: 00:34:12

where there's, there's perhaps more of a.

596

: 00:34:14

Priming.

597

: 00:34:16

So that, and concurrent kind of activity,

as you say with the physiotherapy

598

: 00:34:20

or behavioral therapy or some sort

of active enrichment paradigm is, is

599

: 00:34:26

gonna be where there's Yeah, there's

kind of a synergistic effect for, for,

600

: 00:34:30

in like a positive therapeutic sense.

601

: 00:34:33

Jenny: Yeah, that's a

really good question.

602

: 00:34:34

And we've had the low intensity

TMS compared to TDCS or TACS.

603

: 00:34:40

The transcranial, alternating current,

in a number of, conferences and

604

: 00:34:44

discussions, reviews that we've had.

605

: 00:34:46

So I think that's a

really interesting point.

606

: 00:34:49

And, it comes back to how much, how

much do we actually need to stimulate

607

: 00:34:54

the brain when we are delivering TMS

and, activating motor of potentials

608

: 00:34:58

and triggering action potentials.

609

: 00:35:01

Is that overkill?

610

: 00:35:02

Are we actually.

611

: 00:35:03

Activating the brain so much

that you then call up homeostatic

612

: 00:35:06

mechanisms, might try and reverse that

plasticity because we've gone too far.

613

: 00:35:10

So the low intensity stimulation from

that point of view of priming and

614

: 00:35:14

raising the capacity of the brain to

respond in a more sensitive way to

615

: 00:35:18

stimuli is a really tempting way to

look at those mechanisms, I think.

616

: 00:35:24

And homeostatic plasticity

is, is very complicated.

617

: 00:35:28

I don't think I really

understand it still.

618

: 00:35:30

And we, it would be wonderful

to think of TMS as a primer.

619

: 00:35:34

And we've done some work in

animal models where we deliver TMS

620

: 00:35:39

concurrently with a learning paradigm,

concurrently with wheel running.

621

: 00:35:43

So exercise.

622

: 00:35:45

And, we also have delivered TMS to

the visual system in the dark so the

623

: 00:35:49

animals aren't getting concurrent light

stimulation while they're getting the TMS.

624

: 00:35:54

And they're really, I

think they're really.

625

: 00:35:57

I'm very proud of that work.

626

: 00:35:58

I think it's really, really

interesting work because by

627

: 00:36:01

playing with the, endogenous brain

activity at the same time as you're

628

: 00:36:05

delivering TMS, we could identify,

you can have too much activation,

629

: 00:36:09

but you can also have too little.

630

: 00:36:11

And it's that goldilocks bit where

you get the right amount of endogenous

631

: 00:36:15

activity combined with the right

amount of TMS, in order to repair brain

632

: 00:36:19

circuits in the best possible way.

633

: 00:36:23

Mike: Yeah, that's fascinating.

634

: 00:36:24

And so much of what we know about the

brain and, and how you know that the

635

: 00:36:28

tried and true treatments work, it, it

does really reinforce this idea of just

636

: 00:36:32

trying to restore homeostasis and balance.

637

: 00:36:35

And so that makes total sense.

638

: 00:36:38

Yeah.

639

: 00:36:38

Just also trying to, just trying to

not interfere too much with, with

640

: 00:36:44

what our body does naturally to try

and maintain its own equilibrium.

641

: 00:36:50

Yeah, definitely.

642

: 00:36:51

so I'm just curious, like as far as,

you've mentioned, you know, a few

643

: 00:36:54

times, understandably, certain kinds of

limitations around things funding and

644

: 00:36:58

that, and so I guess just in an imaginary

world, if you had unlimited funding and

645

: 00:37:02

no barriers, what ambitious experiment do

you think you'd be interested in doing?

646

: 00:37:06

Or, you know, what would be

something that you maybe would,

647

: 00:37:09

would wanna try and pursue based on

what the, the lab has found so far?

648

: 00:37:14

Jenny: Yeah, that's, that's

a really good question.

649

: 00:37:16

And I love those open-ended questions.

650

: 00:37:18

Wow, what would I do?

651

: 00:37:19

And I'm actually the two year study,

the long-term lifespan study in, in mice

652

: 00:37:25

that I've described a few times today.

653

: 00:37:27

That was really my, my dream

experiment that I would do, and

654

: 00:37:30

I'm very fortunate we received a,

a large grant to, to do that work.

655

: 00:37:35

And it's, it's an exceptional

opportunity, I think, for us to answer

656

: 00:37:38

that big question of, of the lifespan.

657

: 00:37:41

It's, it's not a small undertaking,

but even, you know, bigger than

658

: 00:37:45

that, it was, it was interesting.

659

: 00:37:47

I was at, a conference at the end of last

year where we had a TMS symposium with

660

: 00:37:51

researchers, from various labs in the us.

661

: 00:37:54

They very kindly invited me

to, to join in that symposium.

662

: 00:37:58

And the, the impression I took

away from that was that we're all

663

: 00:38:02

doing very different experiments.

664

: 00:38:04

So some people are using optogenetics

to trigger activation of neurons in the

665

: 00:38:09

brain to study, particular frequencies.

666

: 00:38:13

And other researchers have, done

similar to what we've done, miniaturize

667

: 00:38:17

the coil, but managed to engineer it

in such a way that they get a much

668

: 00:38:21

higher intensity, magnetic field.

669

: 00:38:22

And they're, they're looking at

the processes involved in that.

670

: 00:38:26

There are other groups that are using

electrical stimulation, so bypassing the

671

: 00:38:29

magnetic field altogether in animal models

and, and activating neurons directly.

672

: 00:38:34

And all of the talks were just so

fascinating because they addressed a

673

: 00:38:38

particular question in so much detail that

they, they, nobody's solved any problems,

674

: 00:38:44

but they're really increasing knowledge.

675

: 00:38:47

And I think at the moment, what's

so exciting about the TMS field is

676

: 00:38:50

that everybody's doing different

models and different approaches and.

677

: 00:38:55

In a few years.

678

: 00:38:56

I, I'm really hoping all

of that will come together.

679

: 00:38:58

And the big experiment that I would

like to do almost is to regularly get

680

: 00:39:02

these preclinical animal researchers

together and make sure that we're

681

: 00:39:07

doing things in a way that we can

share that information across models.

682

: 00:39:11

because it's, I think all of the

models have value you if you're

683

: 00:39:15

asking a question there is.

684

: 00:39:17

A model that will answer that particular

question in the best possible way.

685

: 00:39:21

But we all have different questions,

so we're all using different models.

686

: 00:39:25

But you know, it would be wonderful

to just put all of that together

687

: 00:39:29

in a way that we could then make

sense of the bigger picture based

688

: 00:39:33

on those individual puzzle pieces.

689

: 00:39:36

it, I think the TMS field at

this point is, it's a bit wild.

690

: 00:39:40

Everybody's doing their own thing, but.

691

: 00:39:43

It will come together.

692

: 00:39:44

And I think maintaining that communication

across labs and facilitating travel

693

: 00:39:51

and exchange and collaboration will,

will really move the field forward.

694

: 00:39:55

I don't have a big vision yet.

695

: 00:39:56

I think that vision will emerge,

but I'd love to be part of

696

: 00:40:00

bringing that vision together.

697

: 00:40:03

Mike: Yeah.

698

: 00:40:03

It, uh, makes, that makes perfect sense.

699

: 00:40:06

And it makes me think that one of the

things you said earlier about how the

700

: 00:40:10

evolution of TMS has almost kind of

gone backwards, where, you know, it was

701

: 00:40:14

just sort of devised as the device, you

know, initially when 25 odd years ago,

702

: 00:40:19

and then just trialed on people and then

the research has kind of gone backwards.

703

: 00:40:24

Right.

704

: 00:40:24

And so now I could, mm-hmm.

705

: 00:40:26

That kind of time course makes sense

in terms of how then there's this

706

: 00:40:29

sort of perhaps somewhat disorganized

kind of scattershot of approaches

707

: 00:40:33

in terms of other technologies

or variations on theme of PMS.

708

: 00:40:38

But you know, hopefully, I think the

more, obviously the more information

709

: 00:40:41

that we have about these therapies,

these technologies, then the

710

: 00:40:45

better we're better off we all are.

711

: 00:40:48

We can just, the synthesis of it, I

think, as you say, is really important.

712

: 00:40:53

Separating the wheat from the chaff,

I guess, and then figuring out how

713

: 00:40:56

then to best apply that in clinical

terms to get people well as quickly

714

: 00:41:00

as possible for as long as possible.

715

: 00:41:02

Yep,

716

: 00:41:03

Jenny: yep.

717

: 00:41:04

I think also there's the temptation in

TMS to dive into that parameter space

718

: 00:41:07

where you can test infinite numbers

of frequencies and pulses, and I don't

719

: 00:41:13

think we have enough time to do that.

720

: 00:41:15

Literally.

721

: 00:41:15

I think it would take just

a ridiculous amount of time.

722

: 00:41:19

So every so often we sit down in

the lab and discuss, how could we

723

: 00:41:23

design an experiment or how could we

use, the tools like AI and modeling

724

: 00:41:28

to work out what parameters are

the most likely to be effective.

725

: 00:41:33

And I think that's more

strategic, thinking around what

726

: 00:41:37

are the best experiments to do.

727

: 00:41:38

it's important to do that from

a translational point of view.

728

: 00:41:41

'cause it's so easy to

get lost in all of these.

729

: 00:41:43

Very complicated parameters.

730

: 00:41:46

And as you mentioned before, there are

a number of stimulation modalities.

731

: 00:41:49

You've got the TDCS and TACS

ultrasound is becoming, is the

732

: 00:41:53

latest, exciting, new, new tool.

733

: 00:41:56

are we back again to this, device that's

going to start being used in, in people

734

: 00:42:00

without having the research to back it up.

735

: 00:42:03

So I think also there's cautionary

tales there moving forward, if

736

: 00:42:06

we have got new technologies that

can stimulate the brand, let's.

737

: 00:42:09

Maybe just take a step back and do some

of the basic safety and, and mechanisms

738

: 00:42:14

so that we know what we're doing.

739

: 00:42:16

Mike: Yeah.

740

: 00:42:17

No, well congratulations to you and

your team for that because I think

741

: 00:42:20

it's extremely important to just

guard against the, the potential for

742

: 00:42:24

there to be excesses and people to be

perhaps, taking advantage of, if it's

743

: 00:42:29

some, someone that's maybe un or maybe

just overly excited and developing.

744

: 00:42:35

Are not necessarily regulated

or, or perhaps as evidence

745

: 00:42:38

based as they should be.

746

: 00:42:39

And then, so having research like yours

that is, is obviously solid and is just

747

: 00:42:45

gonna add to the body of work that shows

that there is an evidence based, not only

748

: 00:42:49

kind of clinical underpinning based on

population based studies, but the, the

749

: 00:42:54

basic science is also aligned in terms

of the evidence, not only in terms of the

750

: 00:42:59

effectiveness, but the safety, especially.

751

: 00:43:03

Jenny: Thank you that that means

a lot to me and I'm sure my team

752

: 00:43:06

will appreciate that as well.

753

: 00:43:07

The other thing I, I want to mention is

that we publish a lot of negative results,

754

: 00:43:11

and that I think is also really important.

755

: 00:43:13

It's always a bit of a struggle to get

those results published and the students

756

: 00:43:17

often who lead those studies often feel

a little bit disappointed, but it's

757

: 00:43:21

really important to point out when things

don't work or don't have an effect.

758

: 00:43:25

and I think that.

759

: 00:43:26

Something that, again, we're really

proud of, of publishing as much negative

760

: 00:43:30

results as we can when possible.

761

: 00:43:33

Mike: Yeah, that's a

really important point.

762

: 00:43:35

Maybe for listeners, like viewers

and listeners, can you just explain

763

: 00:43:38

a little bit about what that means?

764

: 00:43:39

Negative studies and maybe if you have

a couple of examples from your lab.

765

: 00:43:43

Jenny: Yes.

766

: 00:43:44

so I have plenty of examples.

767

: 00:43:47

The, well, I suppose the, the

recent study, the adolescent

768

: 00:43:50

mouse TMS study really.

769

: 00:43:52

Initially we thought that that was going

to be a completely negative result study.

770

: 00:43:57

So we, when we stimulated the mice

and didn't see any changes in the

771

: 00:44:00

anatomy, didn't see any changes in

the cellular components, but only

772

: 00:44:04

a very small behavioral change.

773

: 00:44:06

Now that was essentially, most

of that study was negative.

774

: 00:44:09

And what that tells us is that TMS is

probably not having massive effects

775

: 00:44:14

on certain things, which in our

context was a good result in safety.

776

: 00:44:20

We've had other, studies, for example,

where we've given stimulation during

777

: 00:44:25

a, sorry, I'm thinking of the task.

778

: 00:44:27

It's a, it's a lever pressing

task where you train, mice to

779

: 00:44:31

press a lever to get a reward.

780

: 00:44:33

And we thought that because.

781

: 00:44:36

Generally TMS is thought to

increase dopamine levels and

782

: 00:44:39

might affect the reward pathway.

783

: 00:44:41

We thought, this is a great model

to look at so that we might be able

784

: 00:44:45

to see that delivering TMS during

leaving lever presser might reinforce,

785

: 00:44:49

those compulsive or addictive

behaviors or it might prevent them.

786

: 00:44:53

And that was a study that was negative.

787

: 00:44:55

so that allowed us to say, well,

in our models with our TMS, we're

788

: 00:45:00

not going to waste any more time

looking at addiction or looking at.

789

: 00:45:04

compulsive behaviors because

our particular tools don't work.

790

: 00:45:08

It doesn't mean that, human TMS

doesn't work, but in our models we

791

: 00:45:11

cannot use that to study addiction.

792

: 00:45:14

mm-hmm.

793

: 00:45:15

So those sorts of examples

I think are really useful.

794

: 00:45:19

Mike: Yeah, definitely.

795

: 00:45:20

No, again, congratulations.

796

: 00:45:22

I think it's just, it's really

impressive and, you know, it's, it's,

797

: 00:45:25

it's very exciting just in terms of,

I'm just sort of dipping my toe into

798

: 00:45:29

understanding more and more about the

basic research, the animal models.

799

: 00:45:32

And I think it's just endless

in terms of the potential and

800

: 00:45:35

it's extremely interesting.

801

: 00:45:37

well maybe before we wrap up, was

there anything else that you wanted

802

: 00:45:40

to share about, you know, your,

your work, your lab's work and yeah.

803

: 00:45:45

Anything that you thought

that might be important?

804

: 00:45:48

Jenny: No, thank you very much.

805

: 00:45:49

I just like to acknowledge that, you know,

I've spoken a lot about myself and as if

806

: 00:45:53

it's my, my work, but, obviously it's,

it's, the work of many, many students.

807

: 00:45:58

Very talented, honors and PhD and

master's students and postdocs

808

: 00:46:02

in my lab over the years.

809

: 00:46:04

And, also in, in research, people

bring their own interests to the

810

: 00:46:07

team and it's really been through

students asking particular questions

811

: 00:46:11

and their own interests that.

812

: 00:46:13

We've gone off on little side tangents and

found some really interesting findings.

813

: 00:46:17

So being in science is really

exciting and the opportunity to

814

: 00:46:21

do these experiments and ask these

questions is a real privilege.

815

: 00:46:24

thank you for letting me talk about it.

816

: 00:46:27

Mike: Oh, that's great.

817

: 00:46:28

Thank you so much for,

for talking to us today.

818

: 00:46:30

I really appreciate it.

819

: 00:46:31

And yeah, again, congratulations to you

and your colleagues, students, everyone

820

: 00:46:35

think it's just a fantastic, fantastic,

projects that, that you spearheaded.

821

: 00:46:39

And I think that hopefully we'll find

out more in the coming months and

822

: 00:46:42

years about the upcoming results,

especially of the two year study.

823

: 00:46:46

I think it's gonna be very

interesting to see how that goes.

824

: 00:46:48

So myself posted on that.

825

: 00:46:52

Jenny: Thank you.

826

: 00:46:53

I'm excited as well.

827

: 00:46:55

Mike: Okay.

828

: 00:46:56

Well thanks again, Jenny.

829

: 00:46:57

Really, really appreciate your time

and such an interesting conversation.

830

: 00:47:00

So all the best and yeah, hopefully

maybe we'll bump into you at some

831

: 00:47:03

point conference or, have another

podcast at some point in the future.

832

: 00:47:07

Maybe we can plan to talk a bit about

the results of the, the long-term

833

: 00:47:10

study, when those are available.

834

: 00:47:13

Jenny: Love to, that would

be fantastic, Michael.

835

: 00:47:14

Thank you.

836

: 00:47:16

Mike: Okay.

837

: 00:47:16

Yeah, thanks.

838

: 00:47:18

So that brings us to the end of

today's conversation with Dr.

839

: 00:47:21

Jenny Rodger.

840

: 00:47:22

Her research offers crucial insights

into how low intensity rTMS interacts

841

: 00:47:28

with the developing brain, and it really

reminds us of the importance of cautious

842

: 00:47:33

evidence-based innovation as we expand

neurostimulation into younger populations.

843

: 00:47:39

If you've enjoyed this episode,

please be sure to like and subscribe.

844

: 00:47:42

Leave a review or ask questions in the

comment section below and share it with

845

: 00:47:47

anyone that you think might be interested.

846

: 00:47:49

I'm going to add links to Dr.

847

: 00:47:52

Rodger's labs, information and

contacts and just, the relevant papers.

848

: 00:47:56

I'll leave links to all of

that in the show notes below,

849

: 00:47:59

so please do check those out.

850

: 00:48:01

if you're interested in diving deeper

into this really important subject.

851

: 00:48:04

Thanks again for your time, your

interest and your attention.

852

: 00:48:07

I really appreciate, the fact that

you've watched or listened to the

853

: 00:48:11

podcast and we'll see you next time

on The Neurostimulation Podcast.

854

: 00:48:14

Thanks so much.