Episode 47

full
Published on:

2nd May 2026

Who Heals the Healer? Burnout, Shame & the Psychology of High Achievement: Dr. Stacey Elliott

Show Notes — Neurostimulation Podcast Episode: Who Heals the Healer? Burnout, Shame & the Psychology of High Achievement

Guest: Dr. Stacey Elliott, MD

In this deeply insightful episode, Dr. Michael Passmore sits down with Dr. Stacey Elliott — board-certified psychiatrist, addiction medicine physician, and founder of CNY Integrative Psychiatry — to explore the hidden psychology behind burnout, high achievement, and the often-overlooked emotional lives of high-functioning professionals.

What we cover:

  • Why burnout is best understood as a loss of connection with the self, not a personal failure
  • How early attachment patterns and subtle childhood adaptations can drive overachievement in adult life
  • The surprising overlap between addiction and workaholism — and why both are attempts to manage the same core wound
  • The concept of therapeutic prescribing: why the relationship around medication matters as much as the medication itself
  • The nocebo effect in psychiatry and what "difficult" patients are often really communicating
  • Shame vs. guilt: how shame accumulates in high performers and what it takes to heal it
  • The importance of peer consultation, supervision, and Balint groups for clinicians and caregivers
  • What it actually means to be authentically well — not just high-functioning

Guest resources:

  • Dr. Stacey Elliott's website: www.cnyintegrativepsych.com
  • Peer consultation services for clinicians: available via the Specialty tab on her website

Key concepts mentioned:

  • Internal Family Systems (IFS)
  • Balint groups
  • Vicarious stress and compassion fatigue
  • Ikigai (the four quadrants of meaningful work)
  • Nocebo effect in psychiatric medication
Transcript
Mike:

Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Dr.

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Michael Passmore, clinical associate

professor in the Department of

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Psychiatry at the University of

British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.

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Today I'm podcasting from Squamish,

BC, which is a beautiful part of the

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province that I would encourage you

all to visit if you ever get a chance.

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The Neurostimulation Podcast is all

about exploring the fascinating world

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of neuroscience in general and clinical

neurostimulation in particular.

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We also talk to experts and discuss

research in the field of interventional

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mental health, like ketamine assisted

psychotherapy, and other cutting

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edge innovative treatment options.

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We talk about the latest research, and

importantly how that research is being

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translated into real world treatments

that can improve health and wellbeing.

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So whether you're a healthcare

professional, a student, a researcher,

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or someone who's just really interested

in how our brains work and what we

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can do to help them work better,

this podcast is definitely for you.

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I would mention again that this

podcast is separate from my clinical

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and academic roles, and is part of my

personal effort to bring neuroscience

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education to the general public.

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So I do emphasize that the information

shared here is for educational

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purposes only, and is not intended

as medical advice or a substitute

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for professional medical guidance.

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Stacey: Welcome back to the

Neurostimulation Podcast.

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Today's conversation is one that I

really think will resonate deeply with

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many of you, especially those working

in fields like healthcare leadership,

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really any high performance field where

success on the outside can sometimes mask

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something very different on the inside.

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I'm joined today by Dr.

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Stacey Elliott, a board certified

psychiatrist and addiction medicine

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physician, and the founder of

CNY Integrative Psychiatry.

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Mike: Dr.

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Elliott specializes in working with high

achieving professionals like physicians,

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executives, and driven individuals who

are functioning at a high level, but

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often deal with things like burnout,

exhaustion, disconnection, and a quiet

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sense that something isn't quite right.

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And so I would really encourage

you all viewers and listeners

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to check out her website, which

is www.cnyintegrativepsych.com.

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And for listeners, I'm gonna

spell that out just to make

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sure that you can get it right.

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It's www dot C-N-Y-I-N-T-E-G.

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R-A-T-I-V-E-P-S-Y-C h.com.

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And also for clinicians and caregivers

who are listening or watching.

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I would really encourage you to

focus in on the peer consultation

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section of the website, because

we were just chatting offline, Dr.

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Elliott and I, about how that's

such an important part of her work

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that I would really direct you to.

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So again, Dr.

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Elliott, thank you so

much for joining us today.

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I'm really looking forward

to this conversation.

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It's gonna be so interesting

and so informative.

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So thanks for being here.

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Stacey: Thank you so much.

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It's my pleasure.

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I'm really glad that we

were able to connect.

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Mike: Definitely, yeah.

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Maybe you could take some time to

introduce yourself, talk a bit about

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your background, what's brought

you to where you're at now and

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some of your projects that you're

really excited about these days.

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Stacey: Yeah, absolutely.

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so I am, as you so nicely described

in the introduction, I am a board

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certified psychiatrist, board certified

in addiction medicine as well.

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and I came to psychiatry in

a bit of a roundabout way.

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I was the stereotypical, I knew I

was gonna be a doctor my whole life

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kind of thing, but never really

thought about being a psychiatrist.

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in medical school even.

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I was still thinking I was

probably gonna do OB, GYN.

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I liked being in the or, I liked

the pressure and the intensity.

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but I also really liked

the psychosocial piece.

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I think that was probably the first

point in my life where I listened to

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the internal voice, though that said.

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The environment, what it requires of you

maybe isn't aligned with your core values.

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I, I saw burnout.

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Didn't know that's what it was

called, but I saw burnout all around

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me and the trainees and, and it

just didn't sit right with me, but I

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didn't know what else I wanted to do.

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So I sat in terror for months

thinking, I guess I'm just gonna

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be miserable for my whole career.

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but this is what I'm called to do.

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and then I had my psychiatry rotation and

realized that psychiatry was a field that

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was much broader than I had believed.

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I had a reductionist view of psychiatry,

like you just pump people full of pills

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and go on with your day and, stare at

people blankly, and that's about it.

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And I saw so many incredible things.

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In terms of connecting with people in

the ability to do therapy as a, as a

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clinician, I, I didn't even realize that

was a thing, to be honest with you, I had

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no real exposure to a psychiatrist other

than what I'd gotten from popular culture.

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and I also realized that, that the science

and the art of psychiatry were so unique.

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and over the course of a couple of

weeks of that rotation, I went from

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being totally unsure what I was gonna

do with the rest of my life to how

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could I have ever thought I was gonna

be anything other than a psychiatrist

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and every person I told that to, like my

close friends, my family, every single

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person when I told them was like, huh.

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Oh, of course.

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And, and it, that's what

it happened in my own mind.

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Like there was this moment

of like, wait, what?

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And, and a true, of course,

this is what I was meant to do.

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and I have been so grateful.

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Ever since that I had that opportunity

to reflect a little bit and sit with

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the discomfort of like, Hey, what

I think I know maybe isn't true.

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and see what it meant to listen to that

internal voice and take a different path.

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so I trained at SUNY

Upstate in Central New York.

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I'm a Northeasterner.

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I grew up kind of in this area

and the program I trained at is

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pretty psychodynamically oriented.

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I got a lot of excellent therapy training.

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to be honest, I think of myself

as a therapist who is a physician,

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which has been a unique experience

as I grow a private practice now.

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I worked for the VA for, about

eight years, in several different

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capacities after training, and left va.

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Service fully, last year and launched

my private practice, which is what

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I do and spend most of my time

in professionally at this point.

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Fantastic.

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Yeah.

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Such an inspiring story, and I think

this, I really appreciate you sharing the

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journey that you had with coming to terms

with that authentic, that kind of, yeah.

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Coming to terms with that authentic self

and realizing that, because I wonder if,

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I mean, I've certainly had similar kinds

of thoughts throughout training, partly

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because I guess, there's, there's nothing

in a sense, there's nothing wrong with,

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in fact, it's helpful often to know at

an early age what you're kind of called

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to do, but sometimes getting onto a

certain track and, being in high pressure

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educational environments at a relatively

young age, or having certain expectations

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that can maybe interfere with someone's.

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Staying in touch with

their truly authentic self.

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So coming to terms with that, or

perhaps not being able to come to terms

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with, not being able to come to terms

with that might actually be a risk

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factor for burnout, would you say?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Oh, I think absolutely.

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I think that's one of the number one

risk factors of burnout is not having

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the capacity either because we haven't

had it modeled for us or reflected to

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us, how to take space and to ref and to

look inward, but also when the culture

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doesn't give us the time to do it.

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and I think our modern

culture is so fast-paced.

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There isn't room oftentimes to stop

and think and be rested and reflective.

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We're just moving on to the next

thing and then we lose the muscle that

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we need to sit in that discomfort.

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Like it, it's uncomfortable to

sit with your own thoughts and

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when we don't practice doing that.

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We become intolerant of it, and then

we're just kind of stuck on a cycle of

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doing things because that's what we know

to do and it doesn't feel quite right,

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but we don't even have the room to

consider what different could look like.

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Mike: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

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I mean, and it's a very common term

because it's a pervasive issue.

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Sometimes people though,

struggle to define it.

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What would you say, would be your

favorite definition, or characterization

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of burnout, and then how might that

tie in with other kinds of concerns

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like depression or anxiety clinically?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think that

burnout, I think, the way I describe

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it really does align with the true

definition, and I'm gonna come at it

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from that psychodynamic perspective.

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It's this loss of

connection with the self.

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I think that's really what burnout is.

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You are going through the motions,

you are living in reality, but

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you're not connected to your core

self, to your values, to your joy.

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you no longer see the

fruits of your labor.

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And it doesn't always have to be

in the sense of paid labor either.

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Burnout is common in, in caregiving,

in with, aging parents and aging

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loved ones as well as with children.

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but it's essentially that like

disconnection from the self I

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think is really the core of it.

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And it can masquerade as DSM

five psychiatric diagnoses.

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It can also be a driver of the

development of those things.

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And I think that's a place in

psychiatry where we have to be

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really careful of over pathologizing.

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And I see that a lot in my

work where people come to me

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thinking they need medication.

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And sometimes they do.

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Oftentimes they do.

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Stacey: But a lot of times what they

need is that time and attention and, and

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the, a container for their distress so

that they can look at it, observe it, and

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then actually ask questions about what's

happening in their life to make changes so

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they don't have to feel that way anymore.

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You

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can't think your way out of a

lot of things, but thinking about

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things is pretty important, to start

addressing symptoms of burnout.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's really helpful.

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Very interesting.

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'cause I can imagine that particularly

through training and then early career,

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a lot of high functioning professionals

probably have their identity very wrapped

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up in, in what they've been trained to

do, in what they're feeling good at.

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they might be finding the sweet

spot in the Iki guy diagram, between

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the four quadrants of what you're

good at, what the world needs, what

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pays the bills, and, where your pa

where your passion is, I suppose.

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Right.

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So finding that and feeling en

invested in that and feeling good

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about it on the one hand, but on the

other hand, maybe having a GNA sense

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that something's not quite right.

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Yes.

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so it must have to do with this

question of how to define authenticity.

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And as you're saying, there's

probably a whole lot of value in

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people providing themselves with

the space to kind of explore that if

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they do get a sense, annoying sense

that something's not quite right.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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And I think that's, that's the

essential work of therapy is

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making, I mean, you're literally

making space in the therapy room.

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As a therapist, you are the one

providing the space as a consumer

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of therapy as a client to patient.

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You are making an effort and,

at least, superficially to

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create that space for yourself.

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But it's so, I see it so commonly that

people don't allow that space to be made.

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There are so many reasons

why you can't do it.

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You can't invest in it.

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Well, my work schedule doesn't allow it.

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I can't, I don't have, time off.

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My kids need me.

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My, this needs me, my, that needs me.

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And all of those things are

real tensions and yet all of the

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energy that you're draining out.

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Could be put to the use of one

hour of therapy in a week, 10

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minutes of meditation in a day.

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And yet we see those things slip

away because the grind that's

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started that drove the burnout in

the first place doesn't go away.

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Stacey: For sure.

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For sure.

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Yeah.

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It's so interesting, because as

you say, there can be these hidden

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psychodynamic factors that lead someone

to be, hard on themselves, right.

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And not forgiving and not to

allow themselves the space.

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If it's a few minutes every day for

some quiet time, some meditation.

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There's a, there's, I think it must

be so common in part of how high

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functioning individuals get to that

point in the first place is this ethos

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of very hard work and, perhaps at the

expense of self-care and self-compassion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.

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It feels often.

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I think, and I, this happened to me

when I started the private practice and

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I realized how much more as opposed to

space and time being a luxury, which is

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how I always viewed it, I realized that

it was actually a necessity I could not

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do and cannot do the work that I do.

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Well if I don't remain incredibly sharp.

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And I've known this my whole career as

a psychiatrist, that in, in medicine

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in general and in mental health

in particular, you are the tool.

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You are, in most cases, the.

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I truly believe that it is not just, okay,

here's your prescription for fluoxetine.

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Like that is not the value.

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The value is in the relationship that we

have, in my reflection of your goodness,

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in my patience with your ambivalence.

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but that is not an easy thing to provide

day over day, hour over hour to let

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people borrow your central nervous system.

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And if you are not keeping

yourself regulated and authentic,

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you can't do the work very well.

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And that's a challenge because that's

at odds with, I think, a cultural belief

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that we have in our North American culture

and in the culture of medicine that to

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rest, to take care of oneself, to do

things that make you feel good is selfish.

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Everyone else comes first.

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Speaker 2: And

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Speaker 3: you're kind of

left with what's left over.

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Stacey: Mm-hmm.

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Definitely.

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There's this idea that I think is

really relevant here, and that is

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the idea that it's really could be

conceived of as an occupational.

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I mean, I, I hesitate to say hazard,

but it's at least an occupational, risk.

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And that is this idea of

vicarious stress, right?

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So, and especially with considering

things like mirror neurons and so if

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an individual, if we take a caregiver,

a clinician, a healthcare worker,

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a helper, if they're faced day in

and day out in their vocation with.

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Trying their best to help people,

but hearing the challenging stories

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and the complaints that people are

bringing then, and sometimes awful

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stories, awful situations, obviously

then that, that risks because of things

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like mirror neurons that risks the

clinician also vicariously experiencing

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a lot of that stress and trauma.

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And so that by itself is probably

another huge risk factor for

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burnout and compassion fatigue.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And I think of all of our colleagues

in medicine who are not in

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psychiatry, who don't even have the

infrastructure within their training

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to, to acknowledge that often.

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I mean, as much as, I used to, when I went

into psychiatry, I didn't even know that

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psychiatry residency was four years long.

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I thought it was three years.

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and then I was like, four years.

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Why is it four years?

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You can do internal

medicine in three years?

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And then I went through it

and I realized so much of.

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The training, especially in the

third and fourth year, is about

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consolidating all of that information.

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It's the psychopharmacology you

can learn much more quickly.

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It's the presence, the therapeutic

presence that, the time that you

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need in individual supervision to, to

learn how to regulate yourself in the

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service of supporting your patients.

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And even with all of that training

and knowledge, you still then

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transition into life as an attending.

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And a lot of that goes right out the

window with just trying to figure out

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how to be a real grownup doctor now.

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and I think that it, I'm so grateful

that I had such a strong program that

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was so therapeutically supportive

because I didn't lose sight of that.

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Even if it felt like I was sometimes

getting dragged along and then I would

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remember like, I need to seek out.

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Support and I would reach out to peers

and I would reach out to old faculty

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and supervisors, and I was really

lucky to have a great, chief in my

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department who I could go to with

all kinds of, questions and problems.

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But I can see how easily you can lose

sight of that, those touch points.

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And that's a quick road to

burnout when there's no time or

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space between, all these patients

jammed in one after another.

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I don't have time to talk about this

case, like I wanna get home, so I wanna

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use this time to write a couple notes.

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But really you need to use that

time to offload some of the distress

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so that you actually have more

space, can be more present, and

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then be more efficient over time.

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One day you may go home late, but

over the course of a career, you're

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gonna have a much lighter load.

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Stacey: Totally.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And it kind of brings us back to

this whole idea offline beforehand

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we touched on the idea of what

are called balance groups.

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And so for listeners who can't see the

captions, it's ba, B-A-L-I-N-T, I forget

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that psychiatrist's first name, but

he pioneered this idea of clinicians

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gathering together and supporting one

another, discussion of challenging

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case situations, discussions of how

they're also maybe having trouble

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themselves with emotions or certain

kinds of things that needed to be

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worked through in a group setting.

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So I think both of us would really

encourage clinicians to consider.

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Finding out if there's a balance group

nearby, if that might be something that

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your professional association might offer.

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And if not, maybe start one

up yourself and have that as

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a resource for colleagues.

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'cause I think that can be super helpful.

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So talk a bit about maybe your peer

consultation offering there at CNY

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integrative psych as it relates

to what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would say that one

of the things that I was really lucky

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to have in my work in the VA system

was like a ready made structure of

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colleagues who we could share cases with.

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in the Department of Veterans

Affairs, it's more of a collaborative

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model in a lot of ways, both within

mental health, but also within.

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Among primary care and

the other specialties.

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all of the records are shared and

it's pretty easy to communicate

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with your colleagues asynchronously

or in real time, in a way that I

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feel like I was really spoiled.

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I could talk to somebody's primary

care provider sometimes in real time,

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but within the day about issues,

and really coordinate care well.

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that's something that is very different

in almost every other healthcare setting.

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I call primary care

providers now all the time.

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The primary care providers with

my, private practice patients, and

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they're like shocked that it's me

on the phone, not my assistant, but

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I wanna talk to the other provider.

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sometimes it takes a little bit of,

of insistence, but, I, I'll get on the

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phone and we'll talk for 10 minutes

and we can solve a problem that could

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have taken months to get resolved.

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but.

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In addition, sometimes you realize

that things are coming out and

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you're both seeing something

from a different perspective.

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And like that five minute conversation

is suddenly like, oh my gosh, I spent

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all this time worrying about X, Y, or Z.

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Or oh, you noticed this and

I noticed this, and together

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we can come to a conclusion.

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And I just think that like mind's

thinking alongside one another, it's

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such a valuable resource that we

don't often put enough emphasis on.

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Like we're, we get so siloed

in our day-to-day work, and

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there's so much work to be done.

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I'm speaking as a healthcare provider,

but in almost every field nowadays,

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there's so many regulations, there's

so much technology, there's so many

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demands on our time that we don't

actually like, have the ability to

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just commune with other people and let

our thoughts flow and something about.

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That isolation is really disheartening.

356

:

and I try to combat that with my own

practice now by, I have, casual groups

357

:

that I meet with for supervision,

and that's not really supervision.

358

:

It's more just like, what's it like to

be a private practitioner and how are we

359

:

getting through these business challenges

and that are also clinical challenges.

360

:

but also I have my own therapy that

I am able to invest in and I've been

361

:

in for years, but now it's like even

more, I'm even more focused on it.

362

:

and then I pay for clinical

supervision so that my therapy, it,

363

:

my therapeutic work is done well.

364

:

and in doing that and realizing the

value in that, like that's one of

365

:

the largest financial investments in

my practice is my own supervision.

366

:

I realized that's a culture that can.

367

:

Can quickly be lost.

368

:

And I, I don't want that

to be lost in psychiatry.

369

:

this acknowledgement that we are

better when we think together

370

:

as opposed to having to be this

like knowing all, knowing expert.

371

:

Like you can read a lot of papers,

but sometimes you need to talk about

372

:

things and see things from different

angles and turn it upside down.

373

:

And it's hard to do that alone.

374

:

Mike: Totally, totally.

375

:

It's so inspiring.

376

:

I think that psychiatry as a field

could really do better in terms of

377

:

encouraging other fields in medicine to

have more of a formalized system, call

378

:

it supervision, call it mentorship or

something where there is that, as you

379

:

say, it's a really important investment

in one's own health and practice.

380

:

Value for sure as well, because it,

the benefit obviously is gonna come

381

:

off with improved patient care, right?

382

:

I mean, patients are gonna, clients

are gonna recognize that the care

383

:

is of greater value than in other

situations where they may have had,

384

:

and it's very common, not a disparaging

comment, but clinicians who are frankly

385

:

burnt out or on the verge of it.

386

:

And that shows in the way that the

therapeutic relationship might not be

387

:

as good as it could be otherwise, right?

388

:

Stacey: Absolutely, absolutely.

389

:

And I'm sure we've all, all experienced

it as, in, in the sense of like,

390

:

everyone has shown up to a doctor's

appointment or a healthcare appointment

391

:

and you're like, oh, that person's

having a bad day, or things are really

392

:

rushed, or you can tell, they're just

like, please don't say one more thing.

393

:

And that's being human.

394

:

Part of that is just being human.

395

:

you're never gonna show up a hundred

percent all of the time, but if you can

396

:

create the space to do the work, to be

able to show up a little bit better.

397

:

It's gonna pay itself off in spades.

398

:

Mm-hmm.

399

:

But it's hard.

400

:

It's hard.

401

:

Yeah, for sure.

402

:

Yeah.

403

:

Time is a limited resource.

404

:

Mike: Well, this is the thing.

405

:

It's finding that balance

is very challenging.

406

:

But I think, what's, what would probably

be really interesting for clinicians and

407

:

caregivers, really anyone, I mean like,

I don't really want this to be limited

408

:

in a sense for the audience to healthcare

professionals or caregivers per se.

409

:

'cause it struck me that,

that any job really relates to

410

:

helping another person, right?

411

:

Providing any service related job is,

is a helping kind of an endeavor, right?

412

:

And so I wonder though that from your

experience with these sorts of, high

413

:

performers in whatever sector we're

talking about, it strikes me that without

414

:

perhaps getting overly analytical about

it, but one of the most interesting

415

:

ideas that I've found in your work

is this idea that high achievement

416

:

itself can be a kind of an adaptation,

maybe sometimes even a mal adaptation.

417

:

So can you talk to us a little bit about

how things like early attachment or subtle

418

:

trauma can show up in overachievers?

419

:

Oh, absolutely.

420

:

So it's so interesting because,

people, people will joke when they

421

:

find out I'm a psychiatrist, like

my kids', parents, friends' parents,

422

:

or, oh, do you analyze everybody?

423

:

Do you diagnose everybody?

424

:

And I'm like, no, actually, it just

makes me say like, oh, that's the reason.

425

:

But it, I, I think it makes me be

curious and, compassionate in that way.

426

:

But, so I don't wanna pathologize

achievement and but there is oftentimes,

427

:

what helps us to be very good often in

our work may be one side of a coin that

428

:

can, if, too much emphasis is put on it.

429

:

Cause challenges in other

places in our lives.

430

:

we, we become who we are because

of our early environments.

431

:

our, our genes, obviously nature

and nurture and, we are, we

432

:

are because of a lot of things.

433

:

But when, when particular characteristics

are, are, get us good feedback, either

434

:

explicitly or implicitly, we're gonna

keep doing them like we're animals.

435

:

We adapt to our environment and we

look for the path of least resistance.

436

:

So if being a kid who brings home

all a's is the thing that makes your

437

:

parents stop bickering at the dinner

table, like you might try really hard

438

:

to bring home all a's, but then you're

40 years old and your parents aren't

439

:

bickering at the dinner table anymore.

440

:

But that same feeling that you get inside.

441

:

From something else may evoke

that drive to I gotta do better.

442

:

I gotta do better.

443

:

and when we are, are unconscious

is what's driving our behaviors.

444

:

Sometimes we lose sight

of the path that we're on.

445

:

and suddenly the working really hard is

getting us an excellent report at work.

446

:

People really like us.

447

:

We're getting promoted and we're making

more money and we have a lot of value in

448

:

that, in that setting, but it's at the

expense of maybe our partnership or our

449

:

relationship with our children because

we're not showing up in that place.

450

:

And that's quieter.

451

:

Those relationships may not be

pulling in the same way and saying,

452

:

Hey, I need you over here, or

they are and it's uncomfortable.

453

:

Because it's asking you to, to,

to tone down this one aspect of

454

:

yourself that has brought you so much

success and, maybe even psychological

455

:

protection from, from some of the

distress that you're experiencing.

456

:

And that's, that's hard to look at.

457

:

Mm-hmm.

458

:

Yeah.

459

:

This is so important.

460

:

I can imagine a lot of the audience is

really resonating with this 'cause it's

461

:

very, very common, and I think it's so

fascinating because you, I understand

462

:

that you also work in addiction medicine,

and I was struck by your idea that

463

:

addiction and achievement can be two

sides of the same coping strategy.

464

:

I guess it's not a coincidence that the

term workaholic is adopted from alcoholic.

465

:

So are you able to expand

on that a little for us?

466

:

Stacey: Absolutely.

467

:

I've become really interested in,

internal family systems as a, I

468

:

guess like a framework for looking

at the way people present and their,

469

:

their symptomatology and the, the.

470

:

The points of distress in their lives.

471

:

I, I'm not trained in IFS, I'm not

gonna say I'm an if FS therapist, but

472

:

for me, it's really my understanding.

473

:

It's really aligned and supported

that psychodynamic view that I take.

474

:

and in IFS for those who aren't familiar,

very simplified explanation, we look

475

:

at ourselves as thinking creatures have

many, many parts of the mind, not in a

476

:

pathological way, just that's how we are.

477

:

and our parts sometimes will

develop very strong stances that

478

:

are meant to protect the whole self.

479

:

Generally from a young age and in

our lives, we will all of us go

480

:

through, things that are tumultuous

and, and even traumatic and parts

481

:

can get really stuck in, a role.

482

:

That role is meant to, to create

a safe safety for the self.

483

:

But then fast forward 10, 15, 20 years,

that self is actually an adult who's

484

:

autonomous, has, has agency and choice.

485

:

But those parts may still be

really stuck in, in their old role.

486

:

and they may look like

what we call managers.

487

:

Those are like adaptive seeming

parts that, are really diligent and

488

:

people pleasing and, and look good

to everybody else, but, but are

489

:

not authentic, to the core self.

490

:

The flip side would be like firefighters.

491

:

These are parts that are just like, burn

it to the, we gotta stop the fire, but

492

:

it may look really messy on the way.

493

:

and those are parts that show

up, all in the, in the purpose of

494

:

the same thing, to stop feeling

uncomfortable, to feel safe and secure.

495

:

so somebody may.

496

:

Invoke parts that are more

in that workaholic space.

497

:

I work really hard and I make

people happy, and I don't say no.

498

:

And work is the place where I look the

best and feel the best because I have

499

:

been able to, create a scenario around

me where like I am, I am competent.

500

:

This is where I demonstrate my competence.

501

:

But then I go back to the rest of

my life with my partnership with a

502

:

marriage where like, actually I have

a really hard time with conflict and I

503

:

like am either screaming at my spouse

or like hiding, hiding and avoiding.

504

:

but when I go to work, I am actually an

excellent boss and people respect me.

505

:

So I'm going to wanna spend more time in

that place where I feel and look good.

506

:

That's a socially

sanctioned way of managing.

507

:

Parts of ourselves that need to

grow and, and learn new ways of

508

:

being so we can be authentic.

509

:

Addiction is a part of the self that's

gone a more dangerous, physiologically

510

:

unhealthy, psychologically unhealthy

root that is not so socially sanctioned,

511

:

but at its core, they're all ways

of trying to, to help ourselves.

512

:

Nobody does things.

513

:

All human behavior is at the service

of, of like keeping the self safe.

514

:

It just may look really crazy, literally

crazy sometimes on the outside.

515

:

But internally it, the goal is the same.

516

:

and I think that that is really a hard

thing for a lot of people to imagine.

517

:

And it's easier to judge.

518

:

The decisions of someone who is

using substances or, addic, addictive

519

:

behaviors to say that they're

bad or that they, they made that

520

:

choice and it's, it's their fault.

521

:

And then we have, like I said, these more

socially sanctioned ways of mitigating

522

:

our distress that, that seem okay.

523

:

but really the, the core

wound is still there.

524

:

It just looks different.

525

:

Mm, mm-hmm.

526

:

Yeah.

527

:

That's such a, an amazing,

eloquent way of explaining it.

528

:

So thanks so much for that.

529

:

It's it idea and probably

it's why burnout and.

530

:

Things like compassion fatigue can

be so insidious and are so pervasive

531

:

because it is, it's beneath the

surface, but, but the behavior that's

532

:

leading to it is socially encouraged,

not only socially acceptable, but

533

:

socially encouraged and for good reason.

534

:

I mean, it's not a matter of of denying

the importance of productivity and high

535

:

performance by itself, but it's just

a matter of finding the balance and

536

:

helping to give people some direction

in times when they do start to feel

537

:

that there's something not quite right

with their true, authentic selves.

538

:

Mm-hmm.

539

:

Absolutely.

540

:

Absolutely.

541

:

And again, that space.

542

:

Mm-hmm.

543

:

Creating that space to be

able to ask that question.

544

:

To get curious, yeah.

545

:

What's happening here.

546

:

Yeah.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

And I guess there's this interesting

link from a neurochemical perspective

549

:

in terms of dopamine regulation playing

into both overachievement and addiction,

550

:

and then how those things can then.

551

:

Get one, one can start to feed the other,

I suppose, with things like stimulant

552

:

addiction and other kinds of, even alcohol

I suppose as well, just in terms of the

553

:

way that it, that any kind of stimulating

substance can interfere with proper

554

:

dopa healthy, dopaminergic functioning.

555

:

Absolutely, absolutely.

556

:

Yeah.

557

:

It's interesting because I was, talking

to a, a colleague recently about

558

:

burnout and, as a college colleague.

559

:

So we were talking about, from my

perspective and, and how medication plays

560

:

in to burnout and, and the, the idea

of stimulants came up and, I, I take

561

:

a, an interesting stance, but I hold

very formally to this, that, sometimes

562

:

with stimulants in particular, we find

ourselves in this, this dance around,

563

:

My is, is my role as specifically as a

psychiatrist, not just as a physician,

564

:

but as a psychiatrist in particular.

565

:

my role is to diagnose, to

treat and to do no harm.

566

:

And am I doing harm if I, if I feed into

the fantasy that you have, that you can

567

:

work and be on high alert for 16, 18,

20 hours, sleep for four and get back

568

:

up and do it again and again and again.

569

:

And I think that in our, our field, we run

into that challenge over and over again

570

:

with people, who present with symptoms

that align with the DSM diagnosis for

571

:

A DHD, and they get put on high dose

stimulants and there's still not enough.

572

:

And then they need a booster.

573

:

And at what point do we stop and

say, maybe this is not physiology.

574

:

Maybe this is a fantasy that you or anyone

could remain on alert for this long.

575

:

You're gonna be really mad when

I tell you that because you can't

576

:

do the things that you believe

you can or should be able to do.

577

:

and I think that that's a really

interesting, parallel probably, it

578

:

is somehow related in my mind to

addiction and not in the sense that

579

:

you're addicted to the stimulant, but

the idea that that fantasy, that like

580

:

something can be different than it

is that I could, I can drink all day

581

:

and not create chaos in my life, that

I could take stimulants and not have

582

:

sleep problems and appetite issues and,

chronic pain from not caring for my body.

583

:

Mm-hmm.

584

:

Yeah.

585

:

Yeah.

586

:

And like you said earlier, it's, it's

often about there being a deep wound that

587

:

people are, are not as conscious of as

they might be with perhaps some therapy,

588

:

some space as we're talking about,

and then doing their best to try to.

589

:

Treat the wound in maladaptive ways,

maybe ways that work initially,

590

:

but that in the end they don't work

well or they make the wound worse.

591

:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

592

:

Mm-hmm.

593

:

I really, I, I really love the

concept that you've, shared about

594

:

therapeutic prescribing that,

that I've seen in your work.

595

:

Maybe can you explain a little

bit about what that means?

596

:

'cause I think that a lot of the time

with medication prescribing, people

597

:

are, people are a little bit, wary

or reluctant, and I think obviously

598

:

medications can be very helpful.

599

:

They definitely have a, an

important place in the toolkit.

600

:

But how does your concept of therapeutic

prescribing work for your practice?

601

:

Yeah, absolutely.

602

:

I think, I think that's one of

the main reasons that people find

603

:

their way to working with me.

604

:

a lot of referrals from colleagues

of, oh, this is somebody who's really

605

:

nervous about medication, or, like,

they're scared of it and they've

606

:

never tried it, and, and they're quite

symptomatic and other evidence-based

607

:

interventions haven't worked or are not

working as effectively as we'd expect.

608

:

or people who, on the flip side have had

tons of medication trials, but they've

609

:

tried everything, so now they're scared

of what's, is there anything left?

610

:

What's gonna happen if you

try something different?

611

:

and I actually had a, a supervisor

in residency, who was an amazing

612

:

psychiatrist, trained before there

were pretty much any medications in

613

:

psychiatry, and, and was a therapist.

614

:

I, I don't think I ever

saw him prescribe anything.

615

:

He was a child psychiatrist and

did a lot of family therapy.

616

:

but he was one of my supervisors

and he would've described himself.

617

:

He's, he's since passed away,

but he would've described himself

618

:

as an eclectic psychiatrist.

619

:

And that really was the best way to

describe his approach, was very eclectic.

620

:

But he is the first person to

ever said to me, what you do,

621

:

it's therapeutic prescribing.

622

:

And I, I, that meant a lot to me because

it reflected to me something that I

623

:

didn't realize was, probably the thing

that called me to psychiatry, which is

624

:

the fact that the act of prescribing is

not just writing that prescription on

625

:

a piece of paper, putting it into your

computer and sending it to the pharmacy.

626

:

Mental health medications,

psychiatric medications are unique.

627

:

We, we have research to show this

now that the nocebo effect can

628

:

actually sometimes be greater

than the placebo effect, and that.

629

:

The idea that the way you think about

the medication you're taking could

630

:

actually affect how it, it works on

the brain is so fascinating to me.

631

:

Um, and I think that it's, um, it can

be scary to think about it like that.

632

:

Like, oh my God, but you can't, you know,

you can't think your blood pressure down

633

:

if you don't like propranolol, you know?

634

:

Mm-hmm.

635

:

Or you do like propranolol or, you

know, and, and in, in psychiatry,

636

:

I think we have to acknowledge the

fact that people have feelings about

637

:

the medication that they're taking.

638

:

Um, there is a lot of bias

and stigma around even needing

639

:

to have mental health care.

640

:

Um, and it's so important to give

people the time and space to deal with

641

:

the ambivalence that they might have.

642

:

And that's how I see a lot of what.

643

:

Could look like and is often

labeled as medication noncompliance.

644

:

difficult patients, people who are,

they don't follow the treatment plan.

645

:

they are, highly sensitive

to, to medication effects.

646

:

All of these things are data points.

647

:

They're, it's all information about what

that person's internal experience is like.

648

:

and it can be really frustrating.

649

:

Like, I'm the first one to admit,

like, I would much rather have somebody

650

:

come in say, I'm really anxious.

651

:

they score, moderately high score on

a, on a GAD seven, and I give them five

652

:

milligrams of Lexapro and like two weeks

later they're like, wow, I feel great.

653

:

This is amazing.

654

:

I have no side effects

and everything's great.

655

:

Like, that's a very easy patient.

656

:

That's lovely.

657

:

Mm-hmm.

658

:

But that is not as common as

somebody who has a lot of.

659

:

Other worries.

660

:

And they heard something about a, a

medication and they wanna understand,

661

:

well if this happens to this person

and, or this thing happened to me.

662

:

And I just think that it's so

important to create that space.

663

:

Like the actual deciding what

pill to give somebody is one

664

:

of the easier parts of my work.

665

:

It's how do I hold the

space for their ambivalence?

666

:

How do I explain without overexplaining,

how do I give them the respect as an

667

:

autonomous person, but also the support

that they deserve from a trusted guide.

668

:

and I, I think that that is such a

value in psychiatry that, a lot of us

669

:

could take more advantage of, like, we

do have these skills to hold space and

670

:

to be thera a therapeutic presence.

671

:

we're physicians and we're scientists, and

it's, it's like holding that balance of.

672

:

You've got this really crazy idea

that you read about, like, let's

673

:

get curious about it together.

674

:

I might not support that.

675

:

I might, have to say,

well, I respectfully defer.

676

:

I, I don't, I don't see the data in that,

but I can hear what you're saying and,

677

:

and I can pull a nugget out of that.

678

:

Oh, so what I'm hearing is you

are really worried about, weight

679

:

gain with these medications.

680

:

'cause you've heard that, let's

talk about that as opposed to some,

681

:

crazy idea that like has no basis in

science, that's just a red herring.

682

:

Really what you're scared of is

that this medication is gonna

683

:

cause you to put on 50 pounds.

684

:

So let's talk about that and if there

are other alternatives and options,

685

:

or you're scared that if you take this

medication it means that you are crazy.

686

:

Like let's talk about that.

687

:

and I think that that goes a

long way in helping people to

688

:

actually engage in evidence-based

or evidence-informed treatment.

689

:

Which can help them get better.

690

:

Yeah, definitely.

691

:

The whole idea of the no SIBO

effect is really interesting.

692

:

So, as just for viewers and listeners

that might not be familiar, I, as I

693

:

understand, correct me if I'm wrong,

but it's this idea that, that the,

694

:

the expectation of a side effect or

a negative outcome can actually be

695

:

a factor that in the end produces

that, like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

696

:

Is that correct?

697

:

Yes, that is correct.

698

:

So the idea, yeah, that you're, you're

essentially inducing, what you feared

699

:

from a, from a psychological perspective.

700

:

and it's fascinating because it in

some ways defies the science, and

701

:

it's, but it's really va I think

it's also really valuable information

702

:

to consider, when people show up in

that way to 'cause it, it reminds us

703

:

that each person is an individual.

704

:

And all of our data is based on large

cohorts, and these are generalizable

705

:

things, but the person sitting in

front of you is not an amalgamation

706

:

of all of the people who were ever

studied with this intervention.

707

:

They're the one person sitting in front of

you with their one own unique experience.

708

:

And it's learning to find that

balance, I think, and hold that.

709

:

I know that every single person

that I've ever treated who took

710

:

Drug X had, this result and not this

side effect, but you're telling me

711

:

you had the opposite experience.

712

:

That's that's the reality

that it happened to you.

713

:

And even if it really wasn't objectively

real, that's what you know and let's

714

:

like put that and give that some,

some validity and see how we can work

715

:

around that instead of just holding a

dogmatic like, nope, can't be that way.

716

:

Mm-hmm.

717

:

I think that, that happens a lot.

718

:

It's hard.

719

:

It's hard and it's, it comes back

to again, I guess this thing where.

720

:

Kind of part of the overachieving

feeling as though overcoming, or maybe

721

:

not so much the imposter syndrome, but

then still feeling like, okay, well

722

:

I must all of this education, all of

this training, all of this, all these

723

:

accolades must stand for something.

724

:

So, so it is kind of like my way or the

highway or feeling definitive against that

725

:

and feeling like, okay, well, like, and

then that, putting the barrier there so

726

:

that you're not actually connecting with

that client at the level that they need,

727

:

or you're not actually, I think there's

a, there's, there's a call to curiosity

728

:

as you say, but also humility, right?

729

:

This idea of epistemic humility or

humility about, well, 'cause the hard

730

:

thing is that it goes against the grain

in terms of like hardcore science to a

731

:

certain extent, because we feel like, oh,

well, if there's evidence-based medicine,

732

:

then by the stats, then this is probably

the best chance that this person has.

733

:

And if they're.

734

:

Complaining of something that doesn't

make sense as a side effect, then

735

:

they're, like you say in quotes,

difficult client or whatever.

736

:

But, but maybe the, the, the clinician

might be challenged to try to approach

737

:

it more from the perspective of curiosity

and humility and say, well, is there a

738

:

question behind the complaint of this

unlikely side effect that is really

739

:

at the core of what I might be able to

help this person with from a relational

740

:

and a psychotherapeutic perspective?

741

:

Yes, absolutely.

742

:

And I think you hit the nail on the head

with that, that piece about humility.

743

:

It's so hard, in, in our field of

medicine, and I think in many, in

744

:

many fields where you have a lot

of responsibility and part of the

745

:

socialization of becoming a physician is.

746

:

You kind of have to like, not really

look that in the eye because it's,

747

:

it's scary, it's overwhelming.

748

:

and but the downside of that, the

dark side of that is sometimes

749

:

you, you lose some of your humility

because you have to know everything.

750

:

'cause that's the, that's

the societal expectation.

751

:

And in reality, we're all fallible humans.

752

:

and we're all learning still continuously.

753

:

Yeah.

754

:

Well, it ties in with one of

the other things I was hoping

755

:

to touch on, and that's what I

think is one of the most powerful

756

:

themes in your work and and theme.

757

:

The theme is shame, especially in

high functioning professionals.

758

:

Shame at.

759

:

various degrees, I suppose this perhaps

betrayal to the self because of that

760

:

sense that there's something inauthentic

about what they've been successful at,

761

:

or shame in in another way of, of having

hidden maladaptive coping mechanisms

762

:

like addictions and, and perhaps some

degree of dysfunction outside of the

763

:

workplace at home and with family.

764

:

So maybe, if you don't mind

sharing some of your insights about

765

:

shame and, and how that relates

to what we've been discussing.

766

:

Oh, absolutely.

767

:

so, shame, I guess the, the most basic

ne definition of shame and what is

768

:

often, Dances in partnership is guilt.

769

:

and I, I see guilt as an experience

of I have done something wrong.

770

:

in its adaptive sense, guilt is a

social signal, oh, I made a mistake.

771

:

I am acknowledging with empathy that

other people have lived experiences.

772

:

I will take this opportunity if possible,

to repair and then hopefully learn and

773

:

do better or differently in the future.

774

:

guilt over time can erode and become

more insidious, and that's, I think

775

:

when it shifts to shame, which is not,

I have done something bad, but I am bad.

776

:

And that is a deeper wound and it is

exquisitely painful, almost physically

777

:

painful, and in, for some people

truly physically painful to look at.

778

:

And we will do nearly

anything to put that shame.

779

:

Somewhere else so that we

don't have to look at it.

780

:

and I think that you often see with

high achieving people this space

781

:

between what they believe they should

be or the reality should be, and

782

:

then what reality is, and in that

space is where guilt starts to grow.

783

:

I am not a good enough parent.

784

:

I am not a good enough employee.

785

:

I am not a, competent enough person.

786

:

I got here by mistake.

787

:

and if we have those beliefs for long

enough, if we sit with that guilt for long

788

:

enough, it coalesces into a real sense

of shame about our, about our au ourself.

789

:

We don't see that we are, a valuable self.

790

:

And how do we address this shame?

791

:

How do we get rid of it?

792

:

In an ideal world, we'd all be in therapy.

793

:

And we'd sit with another human every week

who'd reflect to us our goodness and hold

794

:

for us that pain and ambivalence until

we could bring it out into the light and

795

:

start to unpack it and understand it.

796

:

But unfortunately, most of us don't

have the opportunity to do that.

797

:

And in a lot of ways, our shame is

reinforced by other external factors.

798

:

And if we can't manage it within

our own heads, we're gonna do

799

:

other things to get rid of it.

800

:

Like using substances, engaging in

unhelpful, unhealthy behaviors, or

801

:

doing socially sanctioned things

that distract us from, from our,

802

:

from our emotional distress.

803

:

Mike: Mm-hmm.

804

:

Stacey: Yeah.

805

:

Shame is, shame is pervasive and it's a,

a human experience, but it doesn't have

806

:

to be the thing that that drives us.

807

:

Yeah.

808

:

Well, thanks for explaining that.

809

:

I think it's just very valuable

to, to know about it, to be able

810

:

to name it and to describe it and

to understand that it is pervasive.

811

:

and yeah, connected to this idea that, I,

I'd mentioned just in a previous episode

812

:

that, one of my great mentors in training

almost an off the cuff comment during

813

:

a lecture one time, said that we're all

traumatized to one degree or another at

814

:

some point, generally early on in life.

815

:

And so, the shame and guilt that can

come out of early life trauma and

816

:

adversity, is pretty much universal.

817

:

And so for people to just understand

that it's not just them that,

818

:

they can get help for that.

819

:

So for someone listening or

watching right now, maybe.

820

:

A clinician or an executive or other

high performer, but not necessarily

821

:

anyone who's listening who feels like

they're running on empty, what might be

822

:

some first steps for them to consider?

823

:

Speaker 3: The first thing

I would tell somebody to do

824

:

is to find a good therapist.

825

:

To be honest with you, I think that

it's so important to be able to sit

826

:

with someone who has done some of

that own their own internal work.

827

:

So what they really can reflect

back to you is your authentic self.

828

:

We are human beings.

829

:

We need connection and we need

to be in community with others.

830

:

And sometimes we find that we are in

community with so many others who are

831

:

sharing the same burdens that we are.

832

:

And it can feel really hard.

833

:

To find a place where we

can unburden ourselves.

834

:

and I guess finding community, finding

people who are like-minded and can sit

835

:

with you and accept you as you are.

836

:

And sometimes the place to do that is,

is first in therapy so that you can

837

:

really start to open up space within

yourself so that you can be that light

838

:

to others and attract a community

of people who, who support you as

839

:

opposed to driving you deeper into

those places of shame and avoidance.

840

:

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

841

:

Thanks so much for that.

842

:

And I guess maybe just to branch

out from that a little bit and maybe

843

:

finish off on an optimistic tone.

844

:

I'm just so curious to know some of

your thoughts about from your wisdom

845

:

and your experience, what have you

found that actually means to be, well,

846

:

I know it's a big question, but not

just high functioning, but genuinely,

847

:

authentically well and thriving in that,

in that really optimal sense that people,

848

:

I think a lot of the time are craving

and, and that they hope for and they're

849

:

just not quite sure how to get there.

850

:

But what could be a, a gold star if you,

or a north, north star, if you will, that

851

:

people can look towards aiming, aiming

at in, in terms of helping themselves to

852

:

optimize their health and, and wellness.

853

:

Speaker 3: Absolutely.

854

:

I think this is such a great question.

855

:

It's something that I've been thinking

a lot about in the last year as my

856

:

life has changed very dramatically

with my work and my family.

857

:

And, what, what are, what's it all for?

858

:

Why am I doing the work that I do?

859

:

And what, what's the goal?

860

:

And I've realized that for me, and

I, I think for for many people,

861

:

what, well, what wellness is, is

to live in, in a place where you

862

:

feel that you are connecting with

the world at your highest capacity.

863

:

That the things that you're called to

do, your, your talents, your vocation is,

864

:

is able to be, you're able to engage in

that in a way that feels connected and

865

:

that you're, you're able to approach the

world in a curious and compassionate way,

866

:

that we are also able to feel comfort

in our physical bodies and in our minds.

867

:

I think wellness can sometimes be focused

only on the physical body and how I

868

:

look and, and how my, athletic capacity,

for example, but at the expense of.

869

:

High stress and, and angst.

870

:

and it's finding that balance of being

comfortable in our, within our bodies

871

:

and within our minds and within the world

around us and the community that we've

872

:

built, and insert us ourselves into.

873

:

Mike: Perfect.

874

:

Yeah, what a great definition.

875

:

I love it.

876

:

That's, just so inspiring and a

great, a great place to sort of, end

877

:

off, with, and I think it's just,

been such a great conversation.

878

:

thank you again, Dr.

879

:

Stacey Elliott.

880

:

just really a delight and, again,

for viewers and listeners, I would

881

:

really encourage you to check out Dr.

882

:

Elliottt's website, which is

cny integrative psych.com,

883

:

so www CNY integrative psych.com.

884

:

And particularly for clinicians,

the peer consultation section there.

885

:

I think that would be something that I'd

highly, recommend that you check out.

886

:

yeah, I mean, such an

interesting conversation.

887

:

I think that what stands out most

to me is this idea that burnout is

888

:

certainly not a personal failure.

889

:

It's often a signal, a signal

that there's something perhaps

890

:

in the system, whether it's.

891

:

Internal or external that

needs care and attention.

892

:

self-care, self-compassion.

893

:

So just allowing yourself to have access

to the space to come to terms with that,

894

:

to find a therapist that we've, like

we've been talking about, so that there

895

:

can be some exploration around that.

896

:

And, that there's always hope, that

with, with recognizing that maybe there's

897

:

a concern, and having the courage to

come forward to ask these difficult

898

:

questions and to seek help that I often

tell clients that's more than half

899

:

the battle, just having the courage

to come forward and try to get help.

900

:

But there is hope that, that,

that wellness is achievable.

901

:

and hopefully, some of the things that

we've been talking about today will

902

:

help provide people with the tools that

they need to, take those steps forward

903

:

and, and getting themselves some help

if, if they're really struggling.

904

:

Speaker 4: Absolutely.

905

:

Stacey: Super.

906

:

Well, thanks again.

907

:

And yeah.

908

:

just for viewers and listeners, if

you've enjoyed this podcast episode,

909

:

please like and subscribe, share it with

colleagues, friends, anyone that you think

910

:

might benefit from this conversation.

911

:

And again, Dr.

912

:

Elliott, thanks so much

for being here today.

913

:

It's been so great to have

this conversation with you.

914

:

It's been lovely to meet you and just

wish you all the best with all of

915

:

your exciting projects going forward.

916

:

Speaker 2: Wonderful.

917

:

Thank you so much.

918

:

Stacey: Okay.

919

:

Take care.

920

:

All the best.

921

:

Bye.

922

:

Speaker 2: Bye-bye.

923

:

Stacey: Thanks again to Dr.

924

:

Stacey Elliottt for such a thoughtful

and deeply relevant conversation.

925

:

I think what stood out most to me is

this idea that burnout is not a personal

926

:

failure, but it's often a signal.

927

:

A signal that something in the

system, whether it's internal or

928

:

external, needs care and attention.

929

:

And for those of us working in

healthcare or high demand fields, the

930

:

question who heals the healer is not

just philosophical, it's essential.

931

:

Thanks so much for joining us today

on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

932

:

I really hope that you enjoyed

this exploration into this

933

:

fascinating topic as much as I did.

934

:

If you found today's episode

interesting, don't forget to like

935

:

and subscribe to the podcast.

936

:

It really is the best way to

make sure that you never miss an

937

:

episode, and it helps us to reach

more curious minds like yours.

938

:

Also, if you think that today's

episode might resonate with a

939

:

friend, a family member, or a

colleague, please share it with them.

940

:

This kind of knowledge really is

better when it's shared and you

941

:

never know who might find this

information helpful or inspiring.

942

:

For more details about Dr.

943

:

Elliott's work that we discussed

today, her current projects and

944

:

all of her content, please do check

out the links in the show notes.

945

:

You'll find everything that you

need to dive deeper into the topic,

946

:

and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

947

:

So please join the conversation

in the comment section or

948

:

reach out on social media.

949

:

Your questions, ideas, and feedback

really do make this podcast better.

950

:

Finally, don't forget to

tune into the next episode.

951

:

It's going to be another exciting journey

into the cutting edge of neuroscience,

952

:

clinical neurostimulation, interventional

mental health, general mental health and

953

:

wellness, and so we'll see you next time.

954

:

Thanks again for listening.

955

:

Take care.

956

:

Stay curious, and I'll see you again

on the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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About the Podcast

The Neurostimulation Podcast
Exploring the frontier of interventional mental health.
Welcome to The Neurostimulation Podcast — a deep dive into the expanding frontier of interventional mental health.

Hosted by Dr. Michael Passmore, a psychiatrist specializing in neurostimulation and geriatric mental health, this show explores how cutting-edge interventions — from non-invasive brain stimulation (TMS, tDCS, and beyond) to ketamine-assisted psychotherapy — are reshaping the landscape of modern psychiatry and neuroscience.

Each episode bridges science, clinical experience, and human insight, featuring thought leaders and innovators who are redefining how we understand and treat the mind.

Whether you’re a clinician, researcher, student, or simply fascinated by the brain, you’ll discover practical knowledge, fresh ideas, and inspiring conversations that illuminate the evolving art and science of mental health care.

Subscribe for episodes that stimulate your mind, deepen your understanding, and connect you to the future of brain-based healing.

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About your host

Profile picture for Michael Passmore

Michael Passmore

Dr. Michael Passmore is a psychiatrist based in Vancouver, BC, with expertise in non-invasive neurostimulation therapies, geriatric mental health and ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Having completed specialized training in multiple neurostimulation modalities, including electroconvulsive therapy at Duke University and transcranial magnetic stimulation at Harvard University, Dr. Passmore brings a robust clinical and academic background to his practice. Formerly the head of the neurostimulation program in the department of Psychiatry at Providence Health Care, Dr. Passmore now serves as a clinical associate professor at the University of British Columbia’s Department of Psychiatry. At Sea to Sky NeuroClinic (seatoskyneuro.clinic), Dr. Passmore offers interventional mental health treatments tailored to clients across Canada.​