Turning Trauma into Purpose: Sam Peterson's Journey from Battlefield to Healing - #34 - Oct 18, 2025

Mike: 00:00:18

Welcome back to the Neurostimulation podcast.

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Today I'm speaking to Sam Peterson,

a former army bomb technician and

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combat veteran who survived the

battlefield only to face a different

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kind of war, the battle with

PTSD and traumatic brain injury.

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But out of that darkness came purpose.

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Sam is the co-founder of Patriot

Power Up, an inpatient program that

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delivers rapid relief for PTSD and TBI.

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And he also runs Mind Spa Denver, an

outpatient clinic that's pioneering

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cutting edge therapies from TMS

and Ketamine to interventions

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that are based on neuroplasticity.

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His work really is transforming the

mental health care landscape for veterans

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first responders and trauma survivors.

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So today I'm really excited to talk to

Sam about the neurobiology of trauma.

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Inflammation in particular might be

the real villain in mental illness

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in general, and what it takes to

turn pain into purpose through

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mission-driven entrepreneurship.

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Sam, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for being here.

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Sam: Oh, thanks for thanks

for having me, Michael.

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It's been I'm glad we

finally got to do this.

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We've been doing a little bit back and

forth on scheduling, but I'm really happy

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to be here 'cause this message is really

important for everyone's audience to hear.

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Mike: Definitely.

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Yeah.

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And thank you for your patience in

terms of the rescheduling and that.

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But yeah, I'm glad that we've

been able to get together today.

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So I'm curious as a way of

introducing yourself maybe, it's

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just such a fascinating journey.

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So from your experience in disarming

bombs all the way now to rewiring brains,

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can you walk us through your personal

journey and how those experiences

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led you to found Patriot Power Up?

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Sam: Yeah.

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So I, I've actually, I've shifted over

to take on the CEO role at Mind Spa Now.

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I still have a peripheral

relationship with Patriot Power Up.

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But how I got here was just out of pain.

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One of the things that they don't tell

you when you sign up for the military.

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Regardless of which job you sign up

for is how high the suicide rate is.

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And it turns out that being a bomb

technician has an incredibly high suicide

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rate, especially during a time of war.

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And that's mostly because of the

constant exposure to traumatic blast

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that we're continuously getting hit with.

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And I suffered quite a bit, but really my.

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Contemporaries, all of my peers had

it way worse than I did, and I saw

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firsthand just how that exposure to

traumatic blast leads to suicide.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Help us to understand that.

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On the one hand, obviously it

makes sense in terms of the stress

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associated with those experiences,

but I'm also curious about how.

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Just the physical exposure to that

sort of energy on a repetitive basis

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increases the risk for depression,

despair, suicidal thoughts.

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Sam: Yeah.

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To understand the nature of how TBI

causes those downstream consequences,

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we need to understand the cellular

biology of a traumatic brain injury.

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And one of the main things that happens.

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So first you have your

initial injury to the axon.

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So imagine your brain, your

neurons rather, are made of Legos.

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So we have this neuron

that's made of Legos.

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It receives an injury of some

sort, whether it's a blast or

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blunt force, and it breaks Legos

scatter all over the floor.

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Those Legos are tau proteins.

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Our neurons are actually

made of these tau proteins.

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Normally, the immune system of

the brain, your glial cells.

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Sit in a sentinel like role.

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They actually shepherd with.

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There's new studies that show

that they shepherd quite a bit

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of neuronal function as well.

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So the shepherd cells are sitting there

doing their job, maintaining the area

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around your neuron, and when they see

all these legos all over the floor.

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They go, oh crap, I need to clean this up.

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This looks like a foreign contaminant.

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There is cellular detritus in my area.

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I gotta pick these legos up off the floor.

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So the first thing that your glial

cells do is they enter a state called

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M1 activation or microglial priming.

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They, put on their little soldier hat.

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They grab their gun and they start

shooting reactive oxygen species

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at these Legos to neutralize them.

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So just like they would do

if it was a harmful bacteria.

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So they shoot these reactive

oxygen species and then

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they move to a third phase.

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It's called a pha acidic role.

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So their job is to go in and

clean all these legos up and

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absorb them and digest them.

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That third step takes a lot of energy.

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If they, if your glial cells don't

have enough energy to complete step

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three, they get stuck in step two.

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So that microglial priming step where

they're just firing off at all of

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this foreign contaminant, if you will.

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That causes a ton of inflammation.

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It creates a neurotoxic environment,

and that eventually starts to

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break down and kill your neurons.

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It causes a number of issues including

what's called tau hyper phosphorylation.

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So you shoot the Legos with

the reactive oxygen species.

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Think hydrogen peroxide.

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The Lego gets coated in that hydrogen

peroxide and it just, it's floating

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around in the space between your

cells and it starts sticking to other

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cells, and that goes on long enough

and you get these big balls of these

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hyper phospho related tau particles.

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They're called neurofibrillary tangles.

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And when those tangles get big

enough, they start to invade

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the neurons around them.

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This mess spreads throughout the rest

of the room and throughout the house.

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That is your brain.

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Over time, those balls, those

neurofibrillary tangles get bigger and

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bigger until they affect the neurons

around them and start killing them.

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And this process goes on and on.

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It doesn't stop until it kills you.

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You'll see if you one look at the

literature too, just anecdotally,

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look at someone who has significant

either blast or blunt force trauma

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injuries, and you'll see, imagine

someone's functionality starts up here.

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They have a traumatic brain injury.

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Boom.

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Immediately their functionality falls, and

then after a while they start to recover.

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They recover a little bit, and then

we just see a plateau, and then that

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plateau goes on until about 10, 15, 20

years later, boom, falls off a cliff

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and they just fall into dementia,

and that's why, and that's a process.

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I don't hear anybody talking about

and that's one of the targets

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of our therapeutic modalities is

getting to the heart of that issue.

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We gotta clean up those Legos.

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We gotta get that crap out

of the intercellular space

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so it doesn't kill you.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah, no, that's, I really appreciate

the way that you use those metaphors

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to illustrate that process.

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I've never heard it explained

that way, but it makes so much

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sense and it's fascinating and

worrisome as well, because.

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Exactly the same sort of pathophysiology

in the nervous system is part of what

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causes Alzheimer's disease, right?

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So as you say, addressing that

and correcting that as early as

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possible is gonna be important

for all kinds of reasons.

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Not only in terms of current functioning

and health, but also to reduce the future

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risk of neurodegenerative disorders.

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Sam: Oh yeah.

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Even Alzheimer's dementia, chronic

traumatic encephalopathy and

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Parkinson's are all tauopathies.

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They all fall into this same family,

and if we can address this root cause,

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and really what we're talking about is a

hypoxic issue, the problem is that your

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glial cells can't make enough energy.

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They can't make enough

energy to clean up the mess.

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The rate limiting factor here is oxygen.

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If you don't have enough oxygen,

you can't complete the Krebs cycle.

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And for everybody's watching,

who doesn't know what that is?

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That is cellular respiration.

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That is the process our cells use

to convert glucose, oxygen, and a

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couple other chemicals into A TP.

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A TP is what our cells run on.

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If you are not giving your cells

enough cellular gasoline, they

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cannot complete these tasks.

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And if this goes along

enough, you, it'll kill you.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So do you think it's as far as the

linkage, the linkage between people

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becoming frustrated and then developing

depression and then despair, and

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then suicidal thinking, is it's,

I imagine, and perhaps it's partly

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related to the physiological impact

as you're describing, but also partly

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related psychologically to feeling.

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If someone's having trouble with

concentrating and they're having

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trouble with functioning, whether it's

in their job or their relationships,

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then they start to get discouraged and

frustrated and they try medications

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maybe, and that's not working.

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And is that kind of how

the cascade usually goes?

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Sam: So yes.

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And we still have this biological

process, this knock on biological

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process that's going on.

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If you're looking at the brain and

you're just looking at the brain from

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like a blood vessel perspective, you'll

see that, our arteries come up they

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damn near innervate the amygdala, our

fight, flight, or freeze function,

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our hind brain, our animalistic brain.

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But when you look at the prefrontal

cortex, when you look at these

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outer regions of the brain,

specifically the ones that are

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responsible for our higher cognitive

functions, you'll see that they're.

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Or sorry that the blood

vessels are very small.

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It doesn't take a whole lot of

inflammation before all of a sudden,

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red blood cells can't deliver oxygen.

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So you have a big problem there.

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Okay.

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Now, we can't do cellular respiration

because we don't have oxygen.

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Your cells don't just die or a

traumatic brain injury would be

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almost instantaneously fatal.

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What happens is if your cell, if your

red blood cells can't get through

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these vessels, they go, okay, cool.

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Check Raj.

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We're gonna switch over to plan B and

they switch over to a process of energy

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creation called anaerobic glycolysis.

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It's a fermentation process revolving

around sugars in the brain and

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'cause all your brain has is this

glucose, it can't get the oxygen.

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So switching over to anaerobic glycolysis.

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It creates a lot of waste products,

this fermentation process.

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So imagine if we're doing

cellular respiration over here.

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This is like burning natural gas.

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Is there some offgassing?

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Yes.

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But it's nothing that your cellular

structure can't start to clean up.

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That it's pretty limited as

far as like creating nastiness.

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Versus anaerobic glycolysis.

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Now we're burning a wood stove.

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I'm not sure if you've ever been to,

any of the towns here in Colorado,

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but just imagine a valley full of

houses like in Aspen, Colorado.

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If all of those houses started

burning their wood fire stove,

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how long would it be before you

couldn't breathe in the valley?

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Perfect example of what's happening

in your cells and that toxicity.

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Breeds more inflammation.

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So you can see very quickly that this

process just, it knocks on itself.

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And when we're talking about depression or

anxiety or PTSD very broad strokes here.

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This is a bit of an over simplifi

simplification, but if you were to

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look at the brain, if you were to open

up, someone's skull, and you could see

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the electrical firing of the brain.

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Of someone who had

depression, anxiety, or PTSD.

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What you would very broadly see is

an underactive prefrontal cortex

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and an overactive hind brain.

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And that's why.

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Mike: Yeah, no, that makes sense.

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And I think that it's really interesting

that the neuroinflammation piece seems

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to be totally understandable, unifying

principle that's at the root of a lot of

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this, and I think that goes along with a

lot of the recent research that is showing

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that, as a result of other factors, like

cortisol, hyper, excessive amount of

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cortisol related to stress and how that

promotes the neuroinflammation as well.

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Yeah, no, thanks again

for explaining all that.

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So I'm curious, so at Mind Spa Denver, can

you describe some of your philosophy in

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broad strokes when it comes to treating

patients, combining these modalities,

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like the repetitive transcranial magnetic

stimulation and things like ketamine

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therapy, in order to not only address the.

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Like what we're talking about, things

like the neuroinflammation, but also

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look at promoting neuroplasticity.

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Sam: Yeah, absolutely.

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So our thesis at MInd Spa is that in

order to solve these problems to get

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to the root cause, we have to address

that inflammatory cascade first.

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Otherwise, we are pushing

a boulder up a hill.

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Just like you see someone who's

struggling with chronic depression,

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that's treatment resistant.

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Same with post-traumatic

stress disorder anxiety.

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We have to fight that inflammation battle

before we can ask the brain to rewire.

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Because if I'm asking the brain to

create new connections, one, it again

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costs a lot of energy to do that, which

the brain in those areas doesn't have.

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And two, we're dealing with, we're

dealing with an area that's just.

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Cramped in by these

inflammatory cytokines.

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There's a non permissive environment.

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Imagine trying to, it's like trying

to grow a plant after you've just

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sprayed Roundup all over your garden.

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Not gonna work.

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Got poison everywhere.

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So our first sorry.

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Our first treatment methodology is,

let's clear out that inflammation.

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That's one of the big reasons

that we use ketamine infusion

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therapy as a frontline treatment.

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So Ketamine, is a, drug that's used every

day in pediatric medicine, bariatric

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medicine, as well as mental health.

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It is what's called an

NMDA receptor antagonist.

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Basically, it goes into

your cells and it goes, Hey.

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There's no glutamate in here.

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Now, taking a step back, glutamate is

the primary excitatory neurotransmitter.

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It's the neurotransmitter that's

telling our cells to make energy

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to do all of these functions.

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So ketamine goes up to the receptor

on the outside of the cell, knocks

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on the door and says, Hey, there's

no glutamate out here, guys.

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We need some more.

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Bring it out.

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Everybody out.

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Let's go.

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So your cell expels a large

amount of its glutamate into the.

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The space outside your cell is the

intracellular space, and that's why

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we see a retraction in consciousness.

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That's what the K hole really is.

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Is your cells going?

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Yeah.

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Guys like take a lunch break.

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The cool thing is.

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After that, glutamate takes a lunch

break, 15 to 45 minutes later,

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depending on method of administration.

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When it comes back into the

cell, it doesn't go back

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to doing the same function.

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One molecule.

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If it was like, let's just say it was

stimulating a mitochondria to make

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energy, that same molecule doesn't

go back to doing that same task.

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It gets reallocated by

the cell and that is why.

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Ketamine is like this control

alt, delete for the brain.

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That's why it's effective in

treating acute suicidality.

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It also triggers a

downregulation in inflammation.

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Really it halts your brain from

creating certain inflammatory cytokines.

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So pro-inflammatory markers.

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It just puts a halt on that.

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So ketamine is a great way for us

to just flip some switches in the

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brain and give someone immediate

relief from those symptoms.

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And when I say immediate, I'm talking

one to two one to two infusions.

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So anywhere from, one to four

days, and someone can start

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to feel immediately better.

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It's a very powerful tool, especially

when it's done responsibly.

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Then, then we and then we have

a couple other treatments, but

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I've been talking three minutes.

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Mike: No.

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That's great.

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I think that's awesome.

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I think I really, I think it's really

important to underscore this issue

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about fast acting relief, right?

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Because I think that.

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And I've been in psychiatry for 20 years

and I think it's just so frustrating for

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patients how long they have to wait to

get better on legacy treatments, right?

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So something like ketamine that can offer

that rapid relief is really critical

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and it's really emphasizing that.

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So that's really interesting.

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And it makes a lot of sense and

I think, yeah, it's given what we

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were just talking about the severity

of symptoms and the complex neuro.

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The complex pathophysiology of the

whole thing, particularly in terms

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of the neuroinflammation piece.

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It makes total sense to have to, in

a sense, do that intervention right

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up front to reset the brain in that

sense that you're talking about.

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And from there, I'm curious,

so how then might that go?

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I know it's not, it's not really possible

to give details 'cause the other advantage

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of this kind of an approach I would

imagine is that it's, it lends itself to.

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Highly personalized kinds of

treatment protocols, right?

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So that there'd be that careful assessment

phase and then, offering various

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different treatment modalities that are

tailored to someone's individual needs.

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But in general terms, if someone's coming

with say, like a significant emotional.

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Post-traumatic or TBI related issues,

then the ketamine to start, and then would

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that potentially just lead into a course

of r tms or what might be the next steps?

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Sam: Yeah, so again, it

really depends on it.

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It depends on the patient of course,

and what they're coming in for.

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But.

319

: 00:17:59

Broad strokes, ketamine, also, what I

forgot to mention is ketamine increases

320

: 00:18:03

neuroplasticity by upregulating

brain derive neurotropic factor.

321

: 00:18:07

Very important piece when we're

talking about rewiring the brain.

322

: 00:18:10

The next thing that we typically move

on to, and this is again, broad strokes.

323

: 00:18:15

This is if someone's doing our whole

protocol, we do offer these a la carte.

324

: 00:18:20

But we, if in a perfect world.

325

: 00:18:24

Someone starts on ketamine

after that first week.

326

: 00:18:27

Then we have an approval for

transcranial magnetic stimulation,

327

: 00:18:31

and we also start them on hyperbaric

oxygen therapy simultaneously.

328

: 00:18:35

Yeah I'm sure this is the

Neurostimulation podcast.

329

: 00:18:38

I'm sure you guys talk

about TMS all the time.

330

: 00:18:41

But just, just

331

: 00:18:42

Mike: for sure.

332

: 00:18:43

Sam: Yeah.

333

: 00:18:43

Just for anybody that's not walking, I'll

throw throughout the quick, explainer.

334

: 00:18:47

It for layman's, for the

layman's terms basically, TMS.

335

: 00:18:52

For anybody who's never heard

of it is MRI technology.

336

: 00:18:54

We take an MRI coil that MRI coil

creates a magnetic field that we

337

: 00:18:59

place that MRI coil on the surface

of the scalp in a specific spot for

338

: 00:19:03

treating major depressive disorder.

339

: 00:19:05

It's the dorsal later left

dorsal later prefrontal cortex.

340

: 00:19:09

That magnet creates that magnetic

field under the surface of the

341

: 00:19:12

scalp and that magnetic field.

342

: 00:19:16

Again, very high level.

343

: 00:19:17

Trick your neurons into clustering

more densely in a network.

344

: 00:19:20

So you know how we do TMS, we

also take it to the next level.

345

: 00:19:25

Our TMS techs really work to help

our patients stimulate that area,

346

: 00:19:30

or rather activate that area

while they're stimulating it.

347

: 00:19:33

So we do, a lot of DBT workbooks

sometimes playing puzzles or playing

348

: 00:19:38

like brain games with our patients

while their brain is getting

349

: 00:19:41

stimulated and that has shown to be.

350

: 00:19:44

Much more efficacious,

long-term for our patients.

351

: 00:19:48

And then, through this whole process,

like we are trying to rewire the

352

: 00:19:52

brain, we're trying to get your

brain cells to do different things.

353

: 00:19:56

Anytime you're asking a cell to branch

out and create new connections, you're

354

: 00:20:01

asking it to spend a lot of energy.

355

: 00:20:03

So we talked about, the TBI.

356

: 00:20:07

And that neuroinflammatory process,

that's where the HBO comes in.

357

: 00:20:10

That's where hyperbaric oxygen therapy can

turn this entire thing up to a hundred.

358

: 00:20:16

Because we have a rate limiting

factor in our physiology that keeps

359

: 00:20:21

our brain from getting more oxygen.

360

: 00:20:23

It's our lungs.

361

: 00:20:24

We can only breathe so much unless

you're doing, holotropic breath

362

: 00:20:28

work every single day, you, there's.

363

: 00:20:32

There's no way to get your cells the

energy they need to do all this work

364

: 00:20:38

in the most effective way possible.

365

: 00:20:40

So that's where the hyperbaric

oxygen therapy comes in.

366

: 00:20:44

And for anybody that's not

familiar with hyperbaric.

367

: 00:20:47

It's a wonderful treatment that,

here in the states is FDA approved

368

: 00:20:51

for 15 different conditions.

369

: 00:20:53

A lot of them are around wound

healing, like diabetic wound ulcers,

370

: 00:20:56

non-healing wounds radiation poisoning.

371

: 00:21:00

It's also dA approved

for treating the Bens.

372

: 00:21:02

There's a whole list.

373

: 00:21:03

Currently traumatic brain injury and

PTSD are not part of that list, but

374

: 00:21:07

there's a ton of peer reviewed research

and meta-analyses that show that this

375

: 00:21:13

is effective in treating these disorders

for the reasons I'm about to explain.

376

: 00:21:17

Big picture here.

377

: 00:21:17

So you get inside a chamber.

378

: 00:21:19

The chamber is closed off and we

increase the pressure inside the

379

: 00:21:23

chamber by pumping air in there.

380

: 00:21:25

We can.

381

: 00:21:26

We typically treat, depending on

the disorder, anywhere from 1.3

382

: 00:21:32

atmospheres to two atmospheres.

383

: 00:21:34

That's the sweet spot for TBI 1.5

384

: 00:21:37

is where the most the most

research has been done.

385

: 00:21:40

To give you an example that,

that'll make a little more sense.

386

: 00:21:43

If you're diving you're getting about two

atmospheres, absolute of pressure when

387

: 00:21:48

you're at about 33 feet under the water.

388

: 00:21:51

So you're down at this pressure,

you're in this chamber, and then you're

389

: 00:21:55

breathing in concentrated oxygen.

390

: 00:21:58

That forces oxygen into your blood plasma.

391

: 00:22:01

So now, talked earlier about those

red blood cells and how we're running

392

: 00:22:05

into these inflamma inflammatory

issues that are keeping our red

393

: 00:22:08

blood cells from getting to where

they need to deliver oxygen.

394

: 00:22:12

Now we've just taken those

guys out of the picture.

395

: 00:22:15

We don't need 'em anymore.

396

: 00:22:16

We have now created a pipeline directly to

the cells to bathe your brain in oxygen.

397

: 00:22:24

Now all of a sudden your

cells are supercharged.

398

: 00:22:26

They are super excited.

399

: 00:22:28

We have put nitroglycerin in those gas

tanks and they start producing a lot more.

400

: 00:22:33

In fact, doing 20 sessions of hyperbaric

oxygen therapy has been shown to increase

401

: 00:22:38

stem cell production by up to eight fold.

402

: 00:22:42

So brand new cells, whole body.

403

: 00:22:45

We're also downregulating inflammation.

404

: 00:22:48

And when you use these things in concert.

405

: 00:22:50

The results that we've seen

are dramatic and profound.

406

: 00:22:55

To give you an example, at Patriot

Power Up, we were using all of these

407

: 00:23:00

modalities together in an inpatient

program along with culturally

408

: 00:23:03

competent talk therapy for veterans.

409

: 00:23:06

What we saw in that program was

astounding within 14 to 17 days.

410

: 00:23:12

Full symptom remission.

411

: 00:23:13

We're talking, guys are coming in.

412

: 00:23:14

This is an inpatient program,

so they're not coming in 'cause

413

: 00:23:16

they're having a good day.

414

: 00:23:17

So they, these guys started,

at a PHQ nine of 20 plus.

415

: 00:23:24

That's pretty damn high

on the depression scale.

416

: 00:23:26

GAD seven.

417

: 00:23:27

Same in the same zone.

418

: 00:23:30

And as well as a very high PCL

five, which is a measure for

419

: 00:23:34

post-traumatic stress disorder.

420

: 00:23:35

Within 14 to 17 days, they had

achieved symptom remission.

421

: 00:23:40

They no longer qualified

for the diagnosis.

422

: 00:23:42

And if you look at the

thresholds, they were under the

423

: 00:23:44

mild threshold within 21 days.

424

: 00:23:47

Within 21 days, over 90% of the patients

we treated were at zeros across the board.

425

: 00:23:54

Mike: Wow.

426

: 00:23:55

Sam: Yeah.

427

: 00:23:55

And the awesome thing is they got

better and they stayed better.

428

: 00:23:58

We looked at their executive function

before and after, so we used CNS vital

429

: 00:24:03

signs, pretty much the gold standard

for anyone's watching who's a veteran.

430

: 00:24:07

If you've ever taken the army, a NAM

exam, which is a neuropsych battery,

431

: 00:24:13

so we did that again pre and post.

432

: 00:24:15

What we saw was pretty astounding

with our PTSD patients.

433

: 00:24:19

The average increase in executive function

after 45 days of treatment was 40%.

434

: 00:24:25

40% increase in executive function.

435

: 00:24:27

That's pretty damn awesome for our

TBI patients, like this is where

436

: 00:24:32

things get a little astounding.

437

: 00:24:33

125% was the average increase

in executive function.

438

: 00:24:38

And again, symptoms gone.

439

: 00:24:40

The.

440

: 00:24:42

These numbers are one incredible

they're super exciting.

441

: 00:24:45

There's a ton more data that we have to

collect, but like we're knocking on the

442

: 00:24:49

door of getting to the root cause here

and people are starting to take note.

443

: 00:24:57

Mike: Yeah, no, I think that's really

important to emphasize also, and I

444

: 00:25:00

think part of why it's important is

that, as you say, you know this, what

445

: 00:25:05

you're offering now on the outpatient

side is grounded in that experience in.

446

: 00:25:11

In people who were ill and dysfunctional

to the point where they needed to be

447

: 00:25:16

hospitalized, and it's just incredible.

448

: 00:25:19

Just those results are fantastic.

449

: 00:25:22

So congratulations to you and your team.

450

: 00:25:23

I think that's, oh,

451

: 00:25:24

Sam: thanks.

452

: 00:25:24

Mike: Great that you're now able to

expand the offering out into folks

453

: 00:25:28

that are in the community and that are

similarly suffering and looking for help.

454

: 00:25:32

That's fantastic.

455

: 00:25:34

Sam: Yeah, we've been able to

really take this to the next level.

456

: 00:25:37

So we've we've started a program

called our TRICARE Preferred program.

457

: 00:25:43

So if you're not familiar with

tricare, that is the insurance that

458

: 00:25:47

active duty personnel in the us

reserve National Guard and military

459

: 00:25:53

retirees and their families have.

460

: 00:25:55

So if someone qualifies for transcranial

magnetic stimulation through.

461

: 00:26:01

Through Tricare, which is three

failed antidepressant medications

462

: 00:26:04

of sufficient dose and duration,

they qualify for our program.

463

: 00:26:10

So our program is you qualify

for TMS and once you qualify for

464

: 00:26:14

TMS, they'll typically approve

between 30 to 60 TMS treatments.

465

: 00:26:19

And when they do, we give the patient

that many sessions of hyperbaric

466

: 00:26:25

oxygen therapy for free, as well as

six sessions of ketamine for free.

467

: 00:26:30

And since it's outpatient and not

inpatient, we're able to bill for

468

: 00:26:33

the talk therapy so we can put

all of this protocol into a single

469

: 00:26:38

outpatient experience for our patients.

470

: 00:26:42

I'm beyond excited about rolling this out.

471

: 00:26:44

We're starting here in Colorado and we're

very rapidly looking to expand to the rest

472

: 00:26:50

of the nation so that we can just make

veteran suicide go away because that's

473

: 00:26:55

why these people are killing themselves.

474

: 00:26:57

They don't, one, they don't have any hope.

475

: 00:26:58

And two, the brains are inflamed.

476

: 00:27:00

If we can fix that and rewire

the brand, we can end this.

477

: 00:27:02

It's not that hard and honestly,

it's not that expensive either.

478

: 00:27:06

Mike: Yeah.

479

: 00:27:07

Yeah.

480

: 00:27:07

No, I think it's just such a great vision

and yeah I, it's just so encouraging and

481

: 00:27:12

and it's so great to hear the message.

482

: 00:27:14

I'm sure that Veterans Affairs

is interested as well, right?

483

: 00:27:17

In terms of, as you say, just

doing as much as they can to

484

: 00:27:20

yeah maybe not, hard to say.

485

: 00:27:22

What are.

486

: 00:27:26

Sam: Under the new administration

things are gonna change under

487

: 00:27:29

the Biden administration.

488

: 00:27:30

It was like beating your head against

a brick wall that has spikes in it.

489

: 00:27:34

They didn't, the VA is all, at

least the last administration,

490

: 00:27:37

the VA was about the va.

491

: 00:27:39

They were trying to federalize everything.

492

: 00:27:40

They refused to give what's

called a, community care consult.

493

: 00:27:44

And there's a couple reasons for that.

494

: 00:27:46

One of them is the VA and the DOD,

the Department of Defense do not

495

: 00:27:50

like hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

496

: 00:27:53

It's not part of the formulary.

497

: 00:27:54

And I got in a pretty knockdown

drag-out argument with a

498

: 00:27:57

psychiatrist from Vail about this.

499

: 00:28:00

It's it's not in the formulary.

500

: 00:28:01

And I was like, do you know why

you think that this is a bad idea?

501

: 00:28:04

And he is what do you mean?

502

: 00:28:05

And I was like, do you know

why you have this opinion that

503

: 00:28:08

you're spouting right now?

504

: 00:28:09

He is it doesn't work.

505

: 00:28:10

And I was like.

506

: 00:28:12

Okay, let me tell you why you think this.

507

: 00:28:15

There were three studies that

were done by the Department of

508

: 00:28:17

Defense, one by the Army, one by

the Navy, and one by the Air Force.

509

: 00:28:22

These were sham controlled studies.

510

: 00:28:24

A sham control.

511

: 00:28:26

In a sham control study, you have

a treatment group and a group that

512

: 00:28:28

thinks that they're getting it.

513

: 00:28:29

It's like a placebo, for things like

hyperbaric oxygen therapy, it's a

514

: 00:28:33

little difficult to like make someone

think they're going to pressure.

515

: 00:28:36

So what they did with the sham

group is they took them down in

516

: 00:28:41

the chamber at, with room air.

517

: 00:28:42

So no, no concentrated oxygen.

518

: 00:28:45

They brought the individuals

in the study down to 1.3

519

: 00:28:49

atmospheres, absolute.

520

: 00:28:51

They brought them down to a therapeutic

depth, and then they kept them

521

: 00:28:55

there for an hour for 40 treatments.

522

: 00:28:59

In each one of these studies,

they gave them a therapeutic

523

: 00:29:03

dose of the therapy, and then the

treatment group went down to 1.5

524

: 00:29:08

atmospheres, absolute, and

breathed in concentrated oxygen.

525

: 00:29:11

Both groups got better.

526

: 00:29:14

And they called it the placebo effect,

and they only used one method of patient

527

: 00:29:20

reported of patient reported symptomology

to justify calling it the placebo effect.

528

: 00:29:26

And I talked to the PhD who wrote

this, and I was like, can you please

529

: 00:29:29

hand me your doctorate so I can just

pair it up in front of your face?

530

: 00:29:33

Because this is called Henry's

Law of Fucking Chemistry.

531

: 00:29:37

A gas will diffuse into a liquid at a

given rate, and an increase in partial

532

: 00:29:40

pressure will increase the amount

of gas that diffuses of that liquid.

533

: 00:29:43

That's exactly what

happened with these people.

534

: 00:29:45

You put them at a ther, you gave them

a therapeutic dose, you downregulated

535

: 00:29:49

inflammation in their brain, which is

the primary issue that they have with

536

: 00:29:53

PTSD, anxiety, depression, and TBI.

537

: 00:29:55

So you relieved their symptoms

through this therapy and then

538

: 00:29:59

you called the placebo effect.

539

: 00:30:01

Guys, I, I have a master's in

business and I know this like

540

: 00:30:05

People who are neuroscientists

about this shit.

541

: 00:30:08

Mike: Sure.

542

: 00:30:08

Sam: Sorry.

543

: 00:30:09

You're really passionate

544

: 00:30:09

Mike: about that.

545

: 00:30:09

No.

546

: 00:30:09

Yeah, I, look, I think it's good that

we've actually touched on this because

547

: 00:30:12

I think honestly particularly where I'm

at in functioning in the Canadian health

548

: 00:30:16

system, which sounds like has similar

issues to what you encountered with

549

: 00:30:21

previous iterations of VA and whatnot.

550

: 00:30:23

It's, I think the importance is

that people have options, right?

551

: 00:30:27

And so if they find that they've been

stuck in the sort of bureaucratic

552

: 00:30:32

mess associated with more sort of

top heavy healthcare bureaucracies

553

: 00:30:37

and not getting anywhere, I think

it's super important that folks like

554

: 00:30:40

yourself are offering people innovative

options that are also evidence-based.

555

: 00:30:46

But as you say honestly,

a lot of the psychiatric.

556

: 00:30:52

Is, they talk about the pharmacoeconomic.

557

: 00:30:55

Industrial complex, whatever they call

it, and how there's capture of the.

558

: 00:31:00

Schools, training programs,

the journals, the research

559

: 00:31:04

funding, and so yeah, absolutely.

560

: 00:31:06

To have an option like what

you're offering there at mind.

561

: 00:31:08

Sp is, it's, really encouraging I think

because as you say, you're getting

562

: 00:31:13

the results and you're looking to

expand and people are getting better,

563

: 00:31:16

which is the most important things.

564

: 00:31:18

So yeah, I think it's just fantastic to

offer people these options and help them

565

: 00:31:23

to get better as quickly as possible.

566

: 00:31:26

Sam: Yeah, Michael how

have you experienced that?

567

: 00:31:28

'cause, like how have you experienced

dealing with the Canadian health system?

568

: 00:31:32

'cause here it is just so owned

by the pharmaceutical industry.

569

: 00:31:38

It's wild.

570

: 00:31:39

Mike: Yeah.

571

: 00:31:39

Oh yeah.

572

: 00:31:40

No, we have that, it's hard on the

one hand, there are some people

573

: 00:31:42

that benefit from medications,

there's no doubt about it.

574

: 00:31:45

But on the other hand, it's hard for

people to explore different options

575

: 00:31:50

if they've had disappointing results

with medications and or psychotherapy.

576

: 00:31:55

I think it's increasingly, there are

some more options available, like RTMS,

577

: 00:32:01

but then that's still in many provinces

not covered by the provincial Oh really?

578

: 00:32:06

Health insurance system.

579

: 00:32:07

Again it's sad because it's often the

people who need the help the most, that

580

: 00:32:10

can't afford it, or they can't advocate

for themselves enough to know where to

581

: 00:32:14

look for other options and, so definitely

it's frustrating, but increasingly

582

: 00:32:21

like with different neuro clinical

neurostimulation programs and people

583

: 00:32:25

who, I think even just media like this,

people who can just watch and listen

584

: 00:32:29

to shows like this for free and just

increase their education and awareness

585

: 00:32:32

about different treatment options.

586

: 00:32:34

I think that's a big part of it because.

587

: 00:32:37

Up until recently, people have been

limited by gonna see their doctor

588

: 00:32:41

and not knowing where else to go

for help or for different options.

589

: 00:32:44

If they need a second or a third

opinion, they're not getting better.

590

: 00:32:47

And just trusting the system as it exists.

591

: 00:32:50

Which often doesn't serve

people very well in the end.

592

: 00:32:53

Sam: Yeah, that's a good point.

593

: 00:32:54

It also brings up another one.

594

: 00:32:55

I'm sure you've seen this as well, just

on TMS and on our TMS specifically, the

595

: 00:33:03

fact that we have to administer this

treatment over six weeks is criminal.

596

: 00:33:08

A normal course of TMS, as I'm sure your

audience knows, is about 36 treatments.

597

: 00:33:12

We get it done in about seven weeks.

598

: 00:33:14

The only reason that it takes

that long is because the insurance

599

: 00:33:17

companies won't let me bill for

more than one treatment at a day.

600

: 00:33:20

The studies out of the studies outta

Stanford with the Saint Protocol

601

: 00:33:24

and Magnus Medical are incredible.

602

: 00:33:27

They're doing a whole course of

TMS up to 50 treatments in a week.

603

: 00:33:33

Their data is showing that

90% of people respond to that.

604

: 00:33:37

That's insane.

605

: 00:33:38

Why there's such a, it's, there's a

zeitgeist in medicine that I don't

606

: 00:33:46

think people understand and it's

something that I keep having to bring

607

: 00:33:49

up, but you know the hippo there.

608

: 00:33:51

There's two really primary

things in medicine that doctors

609

: 00:33:55

are supposed to abide by.

610

: 00:33:56

First one, Hippocratic Oath

do no harm, and the second is

611

: 00:33:59

least invasive to most invasive.

612

: 00:34:02

You want to do the thing that is

gonna create the least amount of

613

: 00:34:05

potential biological harm or impact

before moving on to the next.

614

: 00:34:09

How in the hell are we saying.

615

: 00:34:14

For as a industry that a selective

serotonin reuptake inhibitor that

616

: 00:34:18

is changing your neurochemistry and

takes 10 weeks to work and then takes

617

: 00:34:23

a much longer tail to wean off of,

or you will have withdrawal symptoms

618

: 00:34:26

that make you wanna kill yourself.

619

: 00:34:28

How is that less invasive than using

a magnet to stimulate your neuron?

620

: 00:34:33

In an outpatient procedure that you can

walk away from that has very limited side

621

: 00:34:39

effects and incredibly low risk profile.

622

: 00:34:41

How is that, how does

that even make sense?

623

: 00:34:44

Mike: Yeah, no, you're right.

624

: 00:34:46

A hundred percent.

625

: 00:34:46

Again, it's there's a variety of different

factors, but what I find refreshing is

626

: 00:34:50

that I've chatted with, friend of mine in,

in Texas, who's an entrepreneur as well.

627

: 00:34:54

And part of what I, when I vent to him.

628

: 00:34:56

And I, when we talk sometimes,

and I say honestly, that the it's

629

: 00:35:01

not just a Canadian thing, but I

think for clinicians in general,

630

: 00:35:04

and there's good reason for it.

631

: 00:35:05

Ob obviously safety is very important,

but I think what's not encouraged so

632

: 00:35:09

much is the innovation piece, right?

633

: 00:35:11

And so for someone who's

more business minded, it's

634

: 00:35:15

understandable that there's a.

635

: 00:35:17

A frustration and as you're expressing

is almost like a, being mystified

636

: 00:35:21

about what's the problem, right?

637

: 00:35:23

We've got these treatments that

you showing incredible results

638

: 00:35:26

and the science is there.

639

: 00:35:27

The evidence is there.

640

: 00:35:28

So why is it not accessible

to everybody right now?

641

: 00:35:30

So having.

642

: 00:35:32

The frustration around the

regulatory limitations and this

643

: 00:35:35

sort of overly cautious approach

is certainly frustrating.

644

: 00:35:38

But again, kudos to you all and your

team for yeah, really just pushing the

645

: 00:35:42

frontier and making these effective

treatments available for people.

646

: 00:35:47

And also individualizing it as I

was saying before, like looking

647

: 00:35:50

at how can we best combine the

treatments that target these.

648

: 00:35:55

Processes in a way that gets people

relief as quickly as possible.

649

: 00:35:59

Sam: Yeah.

650

: 00:36:00

Tha thanks for saying that Michael.

651

: 00:36:01

I appreciate it.

652

: 00:36:02

It's, I was kinda shorthanded get patients

better faster, keep 'em better longer.

653

: 00:36:07

And if that's not your goal,

you're in the wrong industry.

654

: 00:36:10

Yeah,

655

: 00:36:11

Mike: a hundred percent for sure.

656

: 00:36:13

No, I think that's, that's a good

point to wrap up on for sure.

657

: 00:36:16

Maybe before we do what would, you

mentioned, you've got visions to expand.

658

: 00:36:20

What's next for Mind Spot Denver,

just in the near term and the future?

659

: 00:36:25

Are you looking to, broaden, different

clinics within Colorado and or outside

660

: 00:36:29

of the state or what are you guys.

661

: 00:36:32

Sam: We're actually currently seeking

some some investment to expand down to

662

: 00:36:36

Colorado Springs so that, that's the

other city down in the front range.

663

: 00:36:40

Once we do that I would love to see

our programming get become integrated

664

: 00:36:46

with the VA and the DOD on the d

on the Department of Defense side.

665

: 00:36:51

Helping the DOD retain the war

fighter is such a huge issue.

666

: 00:36:57

Retention has never been lower.

667

: 00:36:59

Recruitment has never been lower.

668

: 00:37:00

It is so important that we retain

these men and women just like myself.

669

: 00:37:05

Like I was a $10 million guy when I left

the Army, it took $10 million in six

670

: 00:37:10

years to replace someone with my skillset.

671

: 00:37:12

We can't afford to be losing

these people in droves.

672

: 00:37:14

We just can't.

673

: 00:37:15

Our nation's national security

really depends on us having a

674

: 00:37:18

fighting force that's ready to go.

675

: 00:37:20

And furthermore, the DOD when someone

gets injured should not just be kicking

676

: 00:37:24

the can down the road to the va.

677

: 00:37:27

We have created kind of our own

welfare state within the veteran

678

: 00:37:32

community with people who are getting

very reasonably, hurt both mentally

679

: 00:37:37

and physically in the military.

680

: 00:37:39

And they're getting the can

kicked down the road to the VA and

681

: 00:37:41

just say, Hey, here's 50 grand a

year for the rest of your life.

682

: 00:37:45

Just suffer quietly, please.

683

: 00:37:49

There's so many ways that we

can make this system better and.

684

: 00:37:53

That's my goal with all of this is

to expand the reach of these programs

685

: 00:37:57

and not just to veterans and active

duty, but to first responders as well.

686

: 00:38:01

The two primary reasons for

disability within the first

687

: 00:38:04

responder community are orthopedic

injuries, followed directly by PTSD.

688

: 00:38:09

We can treat these things.

689

: 00:38:10

We have the technology, we talked

about we talked about hyperbaric oxygen

690

: 00:38:15

therapy and that increase in stem cells.

691

: 00:38:16

The cool thing is we can take

those stem cells outta your blood.

692

: 00:38:20

Concentrate 'em just like you

would PRP in the hospital.

693

: 00:38:23

And we can take this super

PRP and stick it wherever we

694

: 00:38:25

want and it's your own cells.

695

: 00:38:27

There, there's so much left to do.

696

: 00:38:29

We're just the beginning of this and

my goal is for this to be national and

697

: 00:38:33

not just for, my business, but my goal

is to change the way that mental and

698

: 00:38:39

physical health are treated in this

country because we can do so much better.

699

: 00:38:44

Mike: Yeah.

700

: 00:38:45

Yeah, for sure.

701

: 00:38:46

Amen to that.

702

: 00:38:46

A hundred percent.

703

: 00:38:48

No, I think it's fantastic.

704

: 00:38:49

It's really inspiring.

705

: 00:38:50

I really appreciate your

passion and your vision.

706

: 00:38:53

And I would really encourage

viewers and listeners to check

707

: 00:38:55

out the links in the show notes.

708

: 00:38:56

I'll put links to Sam's Clinic and

all of his projects in the show notes.

709

: 00:39:01

I really appreciate your time, Sam,

and I encourage folks to check out.

710

: 00:39:05

Information, the content that

I'll put in the show notes.

711

: 00:39:08

So Sam, thanks again.

712

: 00:39:09

Really appreciate it.

713

: 00:39:10

Your courage both in terms of your

service and in the way you've.

714

: 00:39:14

Chosen to turn, the challenges and

the pain into healing for others

715

: 00:39:19

in this really inspiring way.

716

: 00:39:21

Yeah, these particularly, again, the

rapid acting nature of these interventions

717

: 00:39:25

that I really think are, looking to

transform the mental health landscape for.

718

: 00:39:30

Again, as you say, not only those who

serve or have been injured in service

719

: 00:39:34

first responders and the general public,

who are looking for alternative, but still

720

: 00:39:39

effective personalized treatment options.

721

: 00:39:41

Yeah, and also for viewers and listeners,

if you're listening and you're struggling

722

: 00:39:45

with these kinds of things, certainly

don't hesitate to check out the options

723

: 00:39:49

that are available at Mind Spa d or if

you know someone, please refer them.

724

: 00:39:55

Or share this episode.

725

: 00:39:56

Just help to inform

people and educate people.

726

: 00:39:58

So again, thank Sam, thank you so much

for your time and yeah, I just wish

727

: 00:40:03

you all the best with your work and

all your projects and your vision.

728

: 00:40:07

Sam: Thanks Michael.

729

: 00:40:07

I appreciate it.

730

: 00:40:08

It was it was great to come on the podcast

and have this conversation with you.

731

: 00:40:12

Mike: Okay.

732

: 00:40:13

All the best.

733

: 00:40:14

Take care.