Steven Zeller - #14 - Mar 22, 2025
Revolutionizing Neuroscience: An In-Depth Chat with Steven Zeller
Join host Michael Passmore, Clinical Associate Professor at the University of British Columbia, on the Neurostimulation Podcast as he delves into the world of brain-computer interfaces (BCIs) with entrepreneur Steven Zeller. Explore how Zeller's passion for biotech and neuroscience is driving innovations in BCIs, AI, and space exploration. Understand the ethical considerations, FDA regulations, and the future potential of these technologies. Zeller also shares his personal journey, discussing resilience, entrepreneurial challenges, and the mindset needed to achieve success.
00:00 Introduction to the Neurostimulation Podcast
01:30 Conversation with Stephen Zeller: An Entrepreneur's Journey
05:12 The Entrepreneurial Mindset and Overcoming Challenges
15:19 Technological Innovations and Future Prospects
23:57 Brain-Computer Interfaces: Current State and Future Potential
32:08 Exploring Deep Brain Stimulation
32:29 Innovative Approaches in Neuroscience
33:19 Breakthroughs in Communication for ALS Patients
40:53 Ethical Considerations in BCI and AI
43:18 The Future of Brain-Computer Interfaces
55:06 Resilience in Entrepreneurship
01:01:35 Closing Thoughts and Reflections
01:02:19 Podcast Outro and Next Steps
Transcript
Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.
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:I'm Michael Passmore, Clinical
Associate Professor in the Department
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:of Psychiatry at the University of
British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.
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:The Neurostimulation Podcast is
all about exploring the fascinating
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:world of neuroscience and clinical
neurostimulation in particular.
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:We look at the latest research
breakthroughs, we have discussions with
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:interesting people, and we consider
how research breakthroughs are being
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:translated into real world treatments
that can improve health and well being.
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:This podcast is separate from my clinical
and academic roles and is part of my
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:personal effort to bring neuroscience
education to the general public.
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:I would like to emphasize that the
information shared in this podcast is
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:intended for educational purposes only
and not medical advice or a substitute
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:for professional medical guidance.
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:Today's episode is presented
by ZipStim Neurostimulation.
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:ZipStim is the neurostimulation
clinic that I operate.
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:You can find out more about
our programs at zipstim.
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:com.
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:That's Z I P S T I M dot com.
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:Today, I had a conversation
with Stephen Zeller.
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:Stephen is an entrepreneur.
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:He's very interested in biotech
and particularly the interface
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:between biotech and neuroscience.
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:We had a wide ranging discussion today
about brain computer interfaces in
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:particular, and Stephen shared his
wealth of knowledge about The individual
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:companies that are pushing the frontier
of innovation and technology with respect
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:to neuroscience and biotech and brain
computer interfaces in particular.
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:So stay tuned, it's a fascinating
conversation and I'm sure that you're
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:really going to enjoy it as much as I did.
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:So stay tuned, it's a fascinating
conversation and I'm sure you're
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:going to enjoy it as much as I did.
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:Welcome back to the neurostimulation
podcast, where we explore the cutting
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:edge of neuroscience, clinical
neurostimulation, technology, human
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:performance, health and wellness.
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:Today, I'm joined by someone who truly
embodies the entrepreneurial mindset.
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:Steven Zeller.
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:Steven is a first generation
millionaire entrepreneur who has
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:built multiple successful businesses
across real estate, health, fitness,
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:e commerce, and business consulting.
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:But beyond business, he has a deep
passion for advancing human civilization
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:through technological innovation.
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:In this episode, we'll explore his
journey from struggle to success, his
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:insights on scaling businesses, and the
technologies that will define the future,
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:in particular, brain computer interfaces.
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:Steven, welcome to the
Neurostimulation Podcast.
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:It's great to have you here.
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:Steven: Mike, this should be a
stimulating conversation, no pun intended.
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:I look forward to it.
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:Thanks for having me on.
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:Mike: That's awesome.
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:I love it.
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:Maybe if you could start by helping
us understand a bit about your
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:background, your journey, and how
you've come to this point where you
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:have this specific interest in the
technology that represents the brain
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:computer interface in particular.
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:Steven: Sure, absolutely.
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:I was always interested in the
human body and anatomy, biology
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:and the human brain specifically.
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:So I was at a training point
at one point in my career.
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:This was after my first
couple of startups.
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:And I had seen some early success.
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:I was at a kind of a crossroads of
do I go through 14 plus years of
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:school to become a neurosurgeon,
which I know is, it fascinates me.
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:I really would enjoy that path.
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:However, I chose to maintain the.
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:Journey I was on, which is
entrepreneurship because it gives me a
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:little bit more flexibility and takes
the inhibiting factor of limiting what
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:I can do and the impact that I can make.
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:So that was what went
into my thought process.
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:And ironically.
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:Mike, now I'm in a amazing position
where I get to have best of both worlds.
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:I get to marry the two and really
use and leverage my entrepreneurial
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:endeavors and experience to actually
make a difference with focusing on
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:my passion, which is technology.
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:Mike: Yeah, that's really cool.
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:That must be at the point where
you're describing where you
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:get the best of both worlds.
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:That must be so rewarding just
to have had those, the different
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:paths that were open to you at
different points in the past, but.
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:Choosing the path that you took
and then recognizing now that, in
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:fact, that worked out for the best
and that you have this flexibility.
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:Now that sounds like a
fantastic position to be in.
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:Steven: Absolutely.
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:And I'm going to be completely
honest with you, Mike.
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:It was there were many times,
especially through the failures, the
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:hard times, which is an inevitable
part of the entrepreneurial journey.
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:Yeah.
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:You start to wonder, right?
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:Did I make the right decision?
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:I away from the pride and true
secure path that guarantees
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:a certain level of success.
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:And I chose the riskier option.
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:Did I make the right choice?
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:So I wrestled with that many times
throughout my career, especially when you
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:have The rollercoaster ride of failure
and success, that's the thing that I
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:always like to say, and you can agree with
this or Give me an opposing viewpoint.
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:However, I always say that success is
not a linear course Success is something
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:where you get your butt kicked from time
to time you have to experience losses.
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:And I think loss is part of the journey
that is Not only inevitable, but
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:necessary to it builds so much character.
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:It builds something that I did not as when
I had early success, which was humility.
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:You think you know it all.
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:I wish if you hit some early on success.
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:So I think going through the journey that
I have really Puts me in a position not
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:only from a financial perspective, but
from a character mindset perspective of,
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:okay, now I have X amount of experience.
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:I can leverage that to
actually make a difference.
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:Mike: Yeah, I know that
makes a lot of sense.
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:And I think it's so important,
for people who are watching and
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:listening, who perhaps are earlier on
in the journey and have ideas about
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:a startup, or, they're inclined to
think about starting a business or
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:trying to figure out how to integrate
perhaps a career in healthcare with.
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:Some entrepreneurship.
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:I know, certainly I've struggled
with that, but there, the idea
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:of just persevering is very
important and heartening to hear.
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:It reminds me of this quote.
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:I'm not sure who.
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:And I think I read it in Ben Horowitz's
book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things.
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:And maybe it's an Elon quote.
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:Who knows?
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:By now, it's an urban myth, probably.
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:But this idea about, as a founder or
as someone who's really pushing In an
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:entrepreneurial way that has a lot of
uncertainty is that I think the quote
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:was something like, you know You find
yourself chewing on glass and staring
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:at the abyss, and it's what do I do now?
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:Steven: Yes, that is such a good quote.
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:I have heard it but i'm in the
same boat as you I can't attribute
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:it to a specific individual.
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:However, it's a good one
and it's not Incorrect,
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:Mike: right?
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:So i'm interested to know what would you
think would have been your real first?
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:Win as an entrepreneur.
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:Steven: I got some early
success on in real estate.
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:I, it wasn't my first business, but
early on in my career, I did scale
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:a relatively successful, obviously
success is relative in and of itself.
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:But I was able to scale in a very
short period of time within about
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:18 months of launch a ancillary
services connection company, which.
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:Actually helped integrated into the
process to simplify a homeowner's
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:transition process essentially.
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:So all of those tasks that kind of pile
on when you're purchasing, selling a home,
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:you're moving, you really don't think
about that until it's go time, right?
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:So you have 30 days in which
to get everything in place.
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:That's okay.
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:What do I need to do?
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:Go down the checklist.
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:I've got to hire movers, I need to connect
the gas, water, sewer, trash, electric,
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:the what's the TV situation like?
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:This was back when TV was actually
a thing, prior to streaming
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:everything, which was ironic.
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:Cable packages internet
service, home security.
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:So we had a service that integrated
into that process, simplified
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:everything, gave you all of your
options as a home buyer or, and you
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:can do everything on one consolidated
phone call, one consolidated process.
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:It was free to the user.
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:And I utilize backend monetization to
essentially bypass the sales process.
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:And that was probably one of my earliest.
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:what I would consider successes.
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:And then just took that.
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:I ran that for about three years
and then took that success and
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:moved on to other industries.
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:Mike: Yeah, that's really great.
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:That's really interesting.
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:It's interesting.
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:I know like concepts for someone like
me who has minimal training in business.
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:Although, these days I find finding the,
AI is super useful as a business partner,
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:it's saving me tons of money in terms of
avoiding Not having to hire an MBA, right?
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:It's like an MBA in your pocket.
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:It's pretty amazing.
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:Steven: I'm trying to
remember who said it.
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:It might have been another Elon
quote, but I love hearing the
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:person that says I have eight MBAs.
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:And.
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:I don't have any of them.
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:I never went to school,
but I've hired eight MBAs.
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:So I love that quote.
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:It's oh, okay.
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:As long as you have a concept is
the, if you are the entrepreneur
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:that has the gumption to actually
get started to actually make a
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:winning idea and Take it from concept
to reality and actually persevere
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:through all the inevitable hardships.
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:The MBAs will come to you.
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:To your point, AI is an incredible
tool that we did not have
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:access to just a few years ago.
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:That really is turning
the industry on its head.
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:If you think about it from
Hey, I've got a concept.
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:You can, if understand how to leverage
the prompts chat, GPT, you can use Lama.
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:There's so many different platforms
now that are all competing.
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:Deep seat.
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:Don't want to throw that one
out there too prematurely.
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:There's all of these platforms and tools
that can readily spit out a business plan
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:for you, give you actionable content,
actionable steps that can actually build
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:out your entire business model for you.
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:That's just something that
didn't exist prior to.
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:And if you wanted to learn anything
for the first time in human history,
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:we have access to a plethora of
information at a few keystrokes.
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:Mike: Yeah, it's really incredible.
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:And I like that term that you use
gumption because again, for people
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:who are interested, who aren't sure,
but have a passion, have a vision,
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:having that, as you say, gumption
is a good word to just dive in and
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:just, follow the, this kind of idea.
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:I love this idea of the intuition.
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:There's something that's driving you
towards, I think this is what has
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:brought humans to the point where
we're at, where we, those of us.
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:I think we all do to a certain extent
have this kind of glimmer that we see
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:we get an idea or we see something
and it sparked something inside of us.
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:And I think for people to be recognizing
that and to not be afraid to follow
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:that as a really important thing.
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:Steven: Absolutely.
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:I think everyone has ideas.
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:And obviously don't know that for a fact,
cause I haven't, don't have the ability
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:to peer into every single human's brain.
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:Some people, they may be idealist
but all jokes aside, I believe that.
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:Every single human has the capabilities.
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:They have the ideas, but for some
reason or another, they do not have
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:the drive to see it through a lot.
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:It could come to them in a dream.
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:That would be a really good idea.
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:And then all of a sudden, three
years down the road, they never acted
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:on it because they had self doubt.
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:They thought it would be too hard.
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:They didn't want to give up their
security of their nine to five job for
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:whatever reason they didn't act on it.
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:And then later they see their
idea come to fruition and make
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:millions for someone else.
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:I think that everyone has.
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:The Idea machine, the idea factory,
which we're going to get into here
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:shortly is the human brain, the
ability to actually put fear aside, put
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:analysis, paralysis aside of how right.
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:And actually hold the trigger
is something that I feel the
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:vast majority of humanity lacks.
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:I personally, this is just my perspective.
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:I don't see that changing anytime.
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:There is a reason I do
follow the 80, 20 rule.
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:Pretty, pretty soundly.
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:It has it works.
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:It's very applicable in almost
everything except for physics.
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:Do believe that will continue now.
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:I also believe that humanity
will dramatically eradicate
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:poverty will eradicate most
diseases like humanity will.
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:As a whole continue to elevate.
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:So I don't think there's going to
be as much disparity in the future.
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:That said the 80, 20
principle will always apply.
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:Meaning the ideas that are actually
going to come through to fruition
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:are going to be the ones who
actually execute those ideas.
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:Mike: Yeah, for sure.
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:No, I love that optimistic outlook
and it makes sense 100 percent what
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:you're saying around the 80 20.
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:It's unfortunate, I think, partly
because of how humans are wired to be
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:more risk averse from an evolutionary
perspective, and I think that probably,
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:as you say, it's hard to escape that
tendency to want to just stick with
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:what's, what's safe and predictable.
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:But Yeah, for sure.
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:I think it is also, I think,
a good thing to encourage
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:people to follow their dreams.
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:And it sounds kind of cliche, but at
the end of the day, I think what, I work
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:with a lot of seniors and you hear your
stories in the news and research studies
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:that talk a bit about what do people
in their later years regret the most?
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:And I think one of the main things,
one thing is not having had it.
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:Yeah.
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:Kept up with social connections.
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:But the other thing I think is
not having followed one's early
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:dream as soon or as hard as one
maybe would have otherwise, right?
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:Steven: Yeah, Mike, I think that would
be one of the saddest things for me.
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:Had I not chosen the path that I did.
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:And there are many regrets that I've
done many mistakes that I've made, but
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:I'm actually glad that those transpired.
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:But I think You are correct in saying
that I believe for myself that if I
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:got to the end of my days so let's
say theoretically we don't within my
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:lifetime achieve some sort of biological
immortality or longevity extension
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:significantly, which I do believe from a
genetic perspective is actually feasible.
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:Let's say that doesn't transpire.
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:And I'm on my deathbed.
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:I think my biggest regret
would have not been.
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:Taking the action and chasing my
dreams regardless of the outcome.
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:Mike: Yeah, absolutely.
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:No, I think most people would agree
that it's a kind of a voice that is
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:in the back of a lot of people's mind.
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:And sometimes they do
their best to ignore it.
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:And sometimes they pay attention
to it, as you say, whether
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:it's in dreams or, otherwise.
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:But it's interesting because I love
the way the direction Is going in for
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:the conversation in terms of these
contemporary issues, biotechnology,
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:brain computer interfaces.
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:I'm curious, what in particular are
you most interested in these days
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:in terms of technology that seeks
to advance human civilization?
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:What particular areas of that
innovation are you most excited about?
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:Steven: Yeah.
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:So as a tech investor and enthusiast, a
futurist so to speak, self proclaimed,
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:of course I always look at what
sectors have the highest potential
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:or probability for dramatically
improving humanity or accelerating the
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:advancement into the cosmos, what or
the future, some of the biggest step.
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:Sectors that I think have that potential
are really what I'm focusing on now.
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:There's so many amazing
projects out there.
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:It's really hard to hone in on
what's going to make the most
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:significant change in the world.
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:Brain computer interfaces
happen to be one of those.
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:The implications, the applications,
the possibilities are off.
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:Now, so are the risks, right?
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:There's a lot, which I think will
lend well to this conversation,
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:really focusing, drilling down on
who are the players in the space
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:to watch where are we at right now?
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:What's what's going on
from an international?
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:Perspective where can we take this
one of the medical applications
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:versus commercial applications right
wearables versus Insertables or don't
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:want to say injectables quite yet.
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:It's a sense of nanobots crawling
through your bloodstream but brain
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:computer interface the bci industry is
One of those things that I think because
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:it's in your face, it is so invasive.
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:I believe there's going to be a slow
period of progression of advancement.
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:The only inhibiting factor is the FDA
and other regulatory agencies that
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:are there to obviously protect us.
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:They are closely analyzing that risk
Long term human studies are necessary.
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:So because of that there are other
fields that I think will explode
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:Very quickly.
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:Ai is obviously one of those if
you look at the progression of ai
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:itself incredible There is nothing
to inhibit the continuation of that.
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:They're trying to from a
regulation perspective, but
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:it's just not Going to happen.
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:Whereas just to give you an idea, and
then we can reel it back, but from a
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:broader approach or perspective, some
of these sectors that I think will make
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:the biggest impact our brain computer
interfaces, a I machine learning as
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:well, but primarily a I integration
into the workforce, meaning a I agents
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:And From a physical standpoint, A.
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:I integration into robotics, which
we're already seeing happening.
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:And we're seeing it in assembly
lines and manufacturing BMW and A.
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:W.
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:S.
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:A lot of big companies are
starting pilot programs, testing
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:this out from a very early stage.
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:But I think that is something
that's going to make a dramatic
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:difference for humanity as well.
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:Space exploration and systems,
propulsion systems, things like that.
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:And then energy is another Big
sector i'm watching as well
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:Mike: Yeah, that really makes sense.
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:Obviously, there's a lot of interconnected
dependence there, especially the energy
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:side, with the requirements that are going
to be there to be able to power the A.
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:I.
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:And the tech initiatives.
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:But it's super interesting because in
terms of if we're thinking about, what
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:are the technologies that could improve?
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:human functioning, human
health and wellness.
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:It's amazing.
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:I recently saw a video with this
robotic exoskeleton that was helping an
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:individual who was paraplegic to walk.
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:So I guess it's whether it's that
from an external perspective or the
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:neural link approach with more of
an internal stimulation perspective.
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:It's so fascinating what's on the horizon.
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:Steven: Absolutely.
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:I think some of the biggest things
obviously talking about the tech is one
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:thing talking about the results from
that tech is really what's exciting.
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:So I don't want to blaze
over that too quickly.
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:I honestly believe that
this is not science fiction.
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:I believe that we will
completely eradicate cancer.
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:Most forms of cancer.
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:Obviously, there's
genetic and epigenetics.
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:There are, for example, we can genetically
make if you are born with a 50 percent
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:chance of acquiring colon cancer
or lung cancer breast cancer we can
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:actually take that predisposition away
from a genetic perspective right now.
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:We have the capability that is
incredible the technology that we
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:have now, obviously, if we take
that away and you start smoking two
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:packs a day that's gonna be on you.
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:But so it's not like we're going
to completely be able to eradicate
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:cancer ongoing because you're,
there's going to be pollutants.
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:There's going to be other
factors throughout your life that
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:can actually give you cancer.
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:However, the ability to cure it from
a genetic and epigenetics perspective
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:is absolutely going to be a big deal.
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:Barrier that we cross very soon.
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:We will be able to expand our
footprint outside of our environmental
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:confinement earth very soon.
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:That's something that's going to happen.
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:I think a lot faster
than most people realize.
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:I think in the 2030s we will have Boots,
we will have a boots on the moon and
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:they will stay there station there.
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:We will have be exploring asteroids
and potentially mining them.
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:We will be have a
presence on Mars, though.
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:That will be very limited.
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:I don't think you're going to
see a city on Mars in the next
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:decade, obviously, but it's good.
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:It's very exciting to see us
expand for the first time.
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:Our footprint.
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:Into the cosmos.
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:Obviously, the propulsion systems and
space tech that we referred to earlier
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:have to come a long way forward to give us
interplanetary capabilities as opposed to
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:just sticking with our own solar system.
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:I don't want to go off on too
big a tangent there, but I think
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:some of those things are going
to be the biggest applications.
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:The biggest changes that we see from a B.
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:C.
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:I.
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:Perspective.
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:You're correct.
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:I think We're already curing.
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:I shouldn't say cure.
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:We're bypassing biological limitations,
meaning if you lose the ability to walk,
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:you're a paraplegic quadriplegic, we
will be able to tap directly into your
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:motor cortex and send those signals
and bypass that disability directly.
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:By tapping into your brain.
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:That is an incredible thing.
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:One of the biggest problems that I see is
we're still at a very rudimentary stage of
400
:understanding how the human brain works.
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:I believe there's a potential that
the brain is quantum in nature.
402
:We're but obviously Believing it and
having a theory about it actually
403
:putting it to the test and proving it
that hypothesis Is what we're trying to
404
:accomplish now, so We're still in the
early stages of understanding how the
405
:brain works And we're tapping into it.
406
:So that is one of the biggest, drawbacks
and dilemmas for me when i'm looking
407
:at this from a longevity standpoint is
it's amazing to hone into all We know
408
:how to bypass this disability by sending
signals from this area of the brain.
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:However, we don't exactly
understand how that signal is where
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:it's actually originating from.
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:We know where it's sending out
from and how to tap into that, send
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:those signals, stimulate the brain.
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:But we're still at a loss for
an overall comprehension of
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:how the brain actually works.
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:Mike: Yeah, no, for sure.
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:What's exciting as well, though, is that
it's just the pace of the innovation,
417
:really, if you think about because
part of what if even if you talk about
418
:the space exploration piece that you
were referring to there, and then you
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:think about how for decades under NASA,
there really wasn't much happening.
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:And I know, in a more of a Bureaucratic
public health care system like here.
421
:It's challenging to have innovation
push the frontier of what clinical
422
:practice can offer to people.
423
:But with I think the
real benefit of biotech.
424
:Obviously with some oversight and
necessary safety regulations and the
425
:necessary research to ensure that
innovations are safe and likely to
426
:be effective, but it really allows
people to benefit from the technology
427
:advancing as quickly as it can do.
428
:And that seems likely to happen a
lot more quickly than it might if
429
:it's left to governments and more
what would you say, bureaucracy
430
:that gets more easily bogged down?
431
:Steven: Oh, yes.
432
:Privatizing it, I think, is
one of the biggest reasons for
433
:the rapid pace of advancement.
434
:Mike: Definitely, yeah.
435
:So if we talk about brain computer
interface, so BCI, as you say
436
:it really is astonishing to me.
437
:Just when it was about a year or
so ago, when they released the
438
:video of the first gentleman that
had the implant there Arnold.
439
:Yeah, exactly.
440
:And gosh, I was just captivated by that.
441
:So obviously it looks as though it
could completely change the way that
442
:spinal cord injury rehabilitation works.
443
:And in fact, further, like how I suppose
we in general interact with technology.
444
:Do you feel that?
445
:This kind of innovation is
more of a distant dream, or
446
:are we close to mass adoption?
447
:Obviously, somewhere in between that,
448
:Steven: The tech is
advancing extremely quickly.
449
:The only inhibiting factors
again, especially when you're
450
:talking about invasive procedures
is going through FDA clearance.
451
:You have to go through a
significant Process, right?
452
:For good reason.
453
:So there's a couple of
things to think about here.
454
:So one.
455
:Aspect of this is the approach, right?
456
:So are we talking about medical
applications versus commercialization?
457
:So adoption is going to first
be for medical purposes, right?
458
:So that's, there's a reason that
they're going for medical first.
459
:And there are companies that
are going for more gaming,
460
:more commercial things as well.
461
:But those are more wearable
devices as opposed to implants.
462
:Once I think it's going to be a
progression if you wanted to talk about
463
:time frame of when this is going to
actually be rapidly integrated into and
464
:adopted because that's the other thing
there's going to be a significant amount
465
:of people that are like whoa Hold on just
because it's safe or the government says
466
:it's safe and all of these human trials
Like it's amazing for medical purposes,
467
:but I don't want that thing in my head
yet And I say the word yet because I think
468
:the adoption will happen Very quickly,
but there's going to be a threshold.
469
:It's going to go very slow at first
and then you're going to start seeing
470
:some celebrities start to pile on
and they're going to get theirs
471
:then a little massive following.
472
:If this person did it i'm going to do
it, too And then it's going, there's
473
:going to be an inevitable shift
that's going to happen so quickly
474
:because what happens is it's going
to be the same from a psychological
475
:perspective as the iPhone, right?
476
:And you remember how that took off.
477
:You don't want to be the only
person in your company that doesn't
478
:have the cutting edge technology.
479
:When you start seeing your leaders
get it and you start seeing other
480
:your colleagues get it, and then you
are left out, even if you're hesitant
481
:and there's going to be a significant
amount of people that are hesitant, that
482
:early adopters will obviously be first
in line, ready to go screw the risks.
483
:And then there's going to be a trickle
down that trickle down is going to be
484
:a little slow, but once I say about.
485
:10 percent 15 percent of the population
as them, it will explode to 80
486
:within, I believe, one to two years.
487
:So that, that's what I foresee
the potential application.
488
:I'm sorry, adoption process looking
like from on a global scale now.
489
:One thing that I think is
going to happen first is you're
490
:going we're really working.
491
:So The difference
between wearables, right?
492
:Versus implants is efficacy, right?
493
:So and what they're capable
of what are the applications?
494
:so wearables are limited significantly.
495
:They can.
496
:They will be good.
497
:Potential applications
could be gaming, right?
498
:It could be more mental health, right?
499
:So it could be there to
pick up on brain activity.
500
:It can pick up what you're feeling.
501
:It could even potentially send signals
to give you a calming frequency, right?
502
:So I see that Happening
relatively quickly.
503
:I also think companies like Meta
are going to come out with their own
504
:versions of wearable computer interfaces
as well to give you some sort of
505
:accessibility into limited features.
506
:So I think that will be a gateway
drug for the overall community.
507
:The harder one that is.
508
:Again, the efficacy rates and the
applications are significantly bigger are
509
:the implants you're going directly in.
510
:To give you an idea, some of the
big players to watch in this space,
511
:I'll give you my top five there.
512
:There are a lot of companies
out there, so I am sorry for
513
:the ones I'm not listing here.
514
:Please do not hold me to it.
515
:Just do better.
516
:Neuralink obviously require,
they deserve to be on this list.
517
:I don't think they're at this
time, the front runner, they're the
518
:ones that get the most attention.
519
:They weren't the first company.
520
:They're actually one of
they were founded in:
521
:BlackRock has a neurotech company.
522
:A lot of people don't hear about that
was founded back in:
523
:have, I believe, 21 FDA approved.
524
:Projects happening right now, right?
525
:So human trials, a lot of things,
and they work in collaboration
526
:with other entities as well.
527
:So they're doing a lot through
black rock and they have
528
:unlimited funding behind them.
529
:And political power as well So black
rock is one that I definitely want
530
:to put on people's radar because a
lot of people I mean Nobody talks
531
:about what they're doing, but
they're doing a lot in this space.
532
:Synchron is one that you might
actually have you heard of synchron?
533
:Mike: No,
534
:Steven: you might actually like this.
535
:So The reason I like them is their
method, so it's a minimal invasive
536
:surgical procedure, and the reason
that they beat Neuralink to human
537
:trials was they developed a technology
that's already in existence, so they
538
:actually their procedure involves stint.
539
:technology.
540
:So you know how a stent surgery works.
541
:You go into the heart mesh hugs, the
inner lining of the vessel holds it open.
542
:Now imagine that procedure, but going up
through the jugular vein into the brain.
543
:And instead of a mesh, imagine
it being an electrode mesh,
544
:Mike: right?
545
:Steven: So minimally invasive, already FDA
approved the process anyway, so now their
546
:human trials is leapfrogging everyone
else that is a lot more invasive, like
547
:cutting chunks of skull out, putting
wires into the brain, they're doing
548
:something that's already been done.
549
:Yeah.
550
:done for years, and they're just
upgrading it with an electrode mesh
551
:that can send and receive signals.
552
:So that's the reason I like them is
their actual minimal invasive procedure.
553
:That's I think highly effective, gives you
access to bigger, broader regions of the
554
:brain, as opposed to a single tap into the
motor cortex, for example, with Neuralink.
555
:It also Eliminates what I consider to
be a lot of the negative potential long
556
:term side effects, which is the brain
seeing a foreign object, even if it's
557
:thinner 10 times 100 times thinner than
a human hair, it is still a foreign
558
:object and the brain's biological
systems is going to create scar tissue
559
:around that it's going to push it out.
560
:It is not.
561
:It's going to move it.
562
:So I yeah.
563
:I think there are a lot of hurdles to
the invasive procedures that require
564
:cutting chunks of skull out and putting
implanting a chip directly into the
565
:outer lining of the brain, whereas
From the non invasive jugular approach.
566
:I think that has a little bit
higher efficacy and potential.
567
:Mike: Yeah, no, that makes,
that's really interesting.
568
:I think it makes a lot of sense that
hybrid approaches, we'll probably have
569
:a lot of, we'll gain a lot of traction.
570
:Yeah, it's whether it's a combination
of minimally invasive and, as well as
571
:wearable or combinations of, Stimulation
technologies plus medication or a
572
:variety of different approaches as
far as mental health is concerned.
573
:That's certainly very interesting.
574
:But, the invasive piece is
really interesting as well.
575
:Because, as you say, obviously there
are limitations, but on the other
576
:hand, there's a lot of already a
lot of history in terms of Yes.
577
:All of the many years now,
decades, probably, I would say
578
:of deep brain stimulation for
things like Parkinson's disease.
579
:Yes.
580
:And the neurosurgical expertise that's
been, building for those years and can
581
:be incorporated into these companies.
582
:So that was, so those were the three.
583
:So you mentioned Neuralink, the
BlackRock company, and then the third
584
:company, then what were the other two?
585
:Steven: Precision neuroscience
they're doing they're another approach
586
:to minimal, minimally invasive.
587
:I'm trying to remember their exact.
588
:So they're focusing on non damaging
upgradable interfaces, right?
589
:So they have a cranial
micro slit technique, right?
590
:So as opposed to taking a chunk out, it's
very minimally invasive, but their focus
591
:is something that is easily upgradable.
592
:Through software and it's
easily interchangeable.
593
:You can remove it.
594
:You can upgrade it with
hardware or software.
595
:So I like their approach.
596
:They're a little bit further behind in the
race from a trial perspective, but I, in
597
:the early days, I liked their technique.
598
:I liked their systems.
599
:I think they're going to be
a major player in this race.
600
:The other one is bring gate.
601
:They did a they got a lot of press.
602
:Because they did a 2024 collab with
brown, I believe, brown university
603
:and it went viral a man with als
was able to speak again through
604
:Simply through thought right?
605
:So they tapped into his Broca's area,
I believe is the term that's directly
606
:related to speech And he was able his
thoughts could see them loud and clear on
607
:the screen translated it to text speech
to text By thought waves only incredible.
608
:The man actually started breaking
down in tears because he was unable
609
:to speak so that they got a lot of
press for that collab with Brown.
610
:I'm doing incredible things.
611
:They're focusing on multiple
different approaches.
612
:But I think their biggest
contribution is going to be in
613
:medical applications as well.
614
:Mike: Yeah, that's really fascinating.
615
:For viewers and listeners, we'll put, I
can put some brief links to these various
616
:organizations in the show notes as well.
617
:And just an aside, of course, this is not,
none of what we're talking about here is
618
:investment advice, just as I usually say
that it's not medical advice either, but
619
:this is just for educational purposes.
620
:It's certainly very interesting.
621
:Yeah, again, in terms of this idea of
a hybrid approach and, to me, in terms
622
:of just taking a step back for a second
and thinking about all of these various
623
:projects, it really speaks again to the
incredible nature of human ingenuity in
624
:terms of picking up on these ideas and
then and then having that spark a new
625
:idea and then going in that direction
in an entrepreneurial sense, it just
626
:really does support this idea of having
an overall optimistic outlook in terms
627
:of the human potential and how things are
going in this direction in the future.
628
:Steven: Absolutely.
629
:I believe that you can.
630
:There's two ways this can go, right?
631
:We can eradicate ourselves as a species.
632
:Or we can work together and propel
our species into a prosperous future.
633
:I choose on a daily basis, regardless
of what's going on, what the media
634
:is propagating, what saying?
635
:Sex sells but war sells
harder something like that.
636
:It's a basically saying that media
loves to chime in and really show
637
:you focus on the negative not really
focus If you turn on the news,
638
:it's crazy to me that you see wars.
639
:You see this.
640
:That you see hunger.
641
:You don't really see what we're you
and I are talking about right now.
642
:What is the what are the good
things that are happening right now?
643
:What are the innovative projects
that humans are working together
644
:on international collaboration as
well as national, international?
645
:It's incredible what we humans as a
species are capable of I believe that
646
:we will Not succumb to our evil intent.
647
:And I believe that we as a species
will advance together into a amazing,
648
:incredible future where we really squash
the beefs that are just irrelevant
649
:in my perspective from religious
Perspectives from regional perspectives.
650
:Economics.
651
:I think that we will really come together.
652
:This will obviously take
a lot of collaboration.
653
:It will take a lot of time because
we as a human species again that
654
:what we referred to earlier, the
fight or flight response, right?
655
:That human amygdala.
656
:It really is our own worst enemy.
657
:But it also from an evolutionary
perspective is the reason that we survive.
658
:And that is that the survival of the
fittest mentality is something that
659
:we have to bypass or overcome in order
to achieve that prosperous future.
660
:Mike: Yeah, for sure.
661
:Absolutely.
662
:And I think the other thing that
occurred to me, as you're speaking
663
:and discussing those companies that
have these innovations, and you
664
:mentioned at one point just recently
there about this idea of, some sort
665
:of quantum effect in the brain.
666
:And it made me think of how
consciousness itself is so mysterious.
667
:And there are all these Contemporary
theories of consciousness and it
668
:strikes me that something like BCI,
by its very nature, it's going to be
669
:manipulating consciousness, hopefully,
in a positive way, as you're describing.
670
:But I guess I'm wondering, in terms
of things like the noninvasive, the
671
:wearables, as you say, whether it's some
sort of interface with the eyes, or as
672
:you say, with some sort of either reading
brainwaves or somehow noninvasively
673
:influencing neuronal activity.
674
:In terms of manipulating consciousness and
maybe through a quantum kind of mechanism,
675
:it's just so interesting to think about
the potential that way for, for people
676
:to have something that's noninvasive
that maybe can serve as a substitute for,
677
:say, medication for treatment of mental
health problems or optimizing their for
678
:cognitive function and attention if they
have a, a variety of attention deficit
679
:difficulties, something along those lines.
680
:It seems so promising in terms of being
able to help people who, who may be
681
:searching for other strategies in terms
of optimizing their health and wellness.
682
:Steven: Absolutely.
683
:Some of those, again, there's a lot
of players in that space as well,
684
:but a couple, just to throw out some
names, because I love name dropping,
685
:some of the people that are really
standouts in any sector, right?
686
:Kernel is doing extremely
well in the wearable space.
687
:Neurable is another one.
688
:I like the name.
689
:I'm actually a little jealous
that they stole that name.
690
:Neuro and Wearable.
691
:Fantastic.
692
:Good job, guys.
693
:But those are a couple
players in the space.
694
:Again, Netta.
695
:I know that they are working on a project.
696
:I have not taken a look at it yet.
697
:If you guys want to send that my
way, I will take a look, by the way.
698
:But so those are Kind of the front
runners that I would take a look
699
:at from a wearables perspective.
700
:Some of them are focused, like I said, on
medical applications from a mental health
701
:perspective or from a gaming perspective.
702
:But I think healthcare definitely has
big ramifications for brain stimulation.
703
:And that could be receiving reading
signals and giving you a hey, here's
704
:how you're doing today, right?
705
:Versus sending signals now sending
signals I think has a higher probability
706
:of affecting change in Place of or
in compliment to pharmaceuticals.
707
:So going to pharmaceutical, suitable
routes, a lot of people are getting
708
:to the place where they want to go.
709
:The eastern methodologies they
want they want to practice yoga.
710
:They want to do things that do not
require pumping pen pills a day, right?
711
:Just to reach a specific mindset.
712
:So the ability to complement that or
completely replace pharmaceuticals
713
:from a brain stimulation perspective
with a noninvasive wearable.
714
:I agree with you.
715
:I think that is on the horizon and
I think it's rapidly approaching.
716
:I also think that it will
achieve commercial viability
717
:faster than the implants will.
718
:Mike: Yeah.
719
:I appreciate that.
720
:Yeah.
721
:And people who've watched them
or listened to previous episodes
722
:will know that I'm running a
neurostimulation clinic called zip stim.
723
:And so we're offering transcranial
direct current stimulation for treatment
724
:of fibromyalgia and migraines with.
725
:Other indications on the horizon.
726
:So it's an example of the technology
that we're talking about that's
727
:becoming increasingly available from
a clinical perspective for treatment
728
:of various neuropsychiatric problems.
729
:100 percent No, and I'm not surprised
to hear that there are many other
730
:companies that are looking at this
for various different applications.
731
:It also makes me think about the ethical
considerations right in terms of Yes,
732
:of course, to help people who have
illness who need treatment options,
733
:but, it reminds me of how there was the
controversy around cloning, whenever
734
:it was 10 or 15 years ago with the
breakthroughs in genetic science, and then
735
:these kinds of, mad scientist experiments
about cloning and so governments had
736
:to crack down and put regulations
out there to prevent, of course,
737
:what would you say, unethical laws.
738
:Experiments around cloning.
739
:So I wonder what your thoughts are
around this potential thing happening
740
:again now for these technologies
like the brain computer interfaces
741
:and particularly in this age of A.
742
:I.
743
:Where you know who knows how
that combination you could you
744
:don't doesn't take too much of an
imagination to think about ways in
745
:which that could go badly wrong.
746
:Steven: Of course.
747
:And even if It did require the
imagination that imagination is readily
748
:available in a plethora of books That
you can read about similar catastrophic
749
:events that transpire due to something
similar to what we're referring to.
750
:My personal take is you have to look
at it From a pro con perspective
751
:I personally believe that the pros
significantly outweigh the cons now
752
:from a risk analysis perspective,
you cannot negate the possibilities.
753
:It's the same concept with AI.
754
:So A.
755
:I.
756
:Is too big to fail.
757
:A.
758
:I.
759
:Is happening whether
governments wanted to or not.
760
:You can try toe.
761
:It's the same thing with Bitcoin
with cryptocurrency too big to fail.
762
:You can try to regulate it.
763
:Governments do.
764
:It will take hold regardless because
the potential, the applications, the
765
:pros significantly outweigh the cons.
766
:So it's and there are
billions at stake in Bitcoin.
767
:Competing companies, right?
768
:When you get reached that point,
the technology is going to advance.
769
:So now it becomes a question of,
okay, we can't if we can't stop it.
770
:How do we make sure that it is
rolled out in a in the least
771
:harmful possible way, right?
772
:So that's where I'm not anti regulation.
773
:I hate it.
774
:That regulation is an inhibiting
factor for so many amazing
775
:technologies, but it also does a lot
of good Safeguards are necessary.
776
:Otherwise, this would be a
Very fast human civilization.
777
:We would have eradicated ourselves
significantly a long time ago so I just
778
:I do think you can over regulate certain
sectors and that's obviously another topic
779
:for another time How I see this playing
out is BCI is already too big to fail and
780
:the pros significantly outweigh the cons.
781
:So it is going to happen.
782
:There is no possible scenario in my
mind where advancement stops, right?
783
:Where a government steps
in and says, no more.
784
:For the, for one, one geopolitical
reason is if let's say theoretically
785
:the U S decided to limit it.
786
:The tech companies would pick up their
billions trillions of dollars and
787
:they would go where it was accepted
and those other countries would open
788
:them with open arms welcome them
with open arms China is developing.
789
:They're making some big breakthroughs,
obviously They don't really publicize
790
:everything that they're doing.
791
:You don't really know what China is
capable of until it's already there.
792
:So their development procedures are
really hush, but they, I do know
793
:for a fact that they are making
leaps and bounds and they are.
794
:In the race with the U S if
not ahead of the U S in their
795
:development processes, which is
something to take into consideration.
796
:So if you turned off the faucet in the
U S you allow China to get the edge on
797
:us, which is just something that the
U S is not willing to do in something
798
:that could have this big of an impact.
799
:So that's my take on
it is going to happen.
800
:Now it comes And now it comes
down to how do we roll it out?
801
:I do think you have to
start looking at the risks.
802
:However, the biggest risk that I see,
obviously, you have to go through
803
:enough trials to know that the long
term feasibility of this yes, we take
804
:somebody who has lost the ability to walk.
805
:We give, we restore that capability by
bypassing their biological inhibiting
806
:factors with direct intervention.
807
:Thank you.
808
:Brain wave stimuli.
809
:We know for a fact that over five years
has no long term negative effects.
810
:Okay, great.
811
:So we can roll this out.
812
:Fantastic.
813
:I so I think we're going to do
well from a medical application
814
:from a commercial application.
815
:I think that has the biggest risk
when you see a significant amount of
816
:people with direct implanted surgery.
817
:Yeah.
818
:Neural interfaces.
819
:The possibility of hacking those
neural interfaces has to be a concern.
820
:It just has to.
821
:So obviously that's very doomsday
scenario, but my take is you have to
822
:continue developing the technology.
823
:And then that has, that's, it has
to be a consideration, but it can
824
:be punted to a, we'll cross that
bridge when we get to it and just
825
:do the best that we can right now.
826
:So continue developing the
technology, but it's not going
827
:to be problematic until later.
828
:The primary reason is you, if
you hacked a phone, okay, you
829
:can access the data on it.
830
:You can access the messages,
the information, right?
831
:But you can't force the person who owns
that phone to necessarily do anything.
832
:You can't have them go
blow up a train station.
833
:When you start implanting devices that
are bypassing your logic brainwave
834
:function, order function, you could
have the potential to take over the
835
:ability for that person to walk, right?
836
:And you could make them walk
somewhere theoretically.
837
:However, what you can't do with
that same brain computer phase
838
:is control their cognition.
839
:You can control their motor function
because that's what the chip does.
840
:But he is very aware that
he does not want to go here.
841
:He would be able to alert anyone.
842
:He would be able to make a phone
call and say, Hey, I've been hacked.
843
:I'm going here and we would
be able to do something.
844
:When I say it's very futuristic
for that to be a problem, we're
845
:talking about the ability to control
cognition as well as motor function.
846
:That is a long way off.
847
:The early stages of this technology is
going to be for specific applications.
848
:For commercial, it's primarily going
to be Wearables for the next at least
849
:five to seven years, if not longer.
850
:So we have a good decade until we
really need to solve the problem of
851
:security from a hacking perspective.
852
:So I do believe that's just my
take from a timeframe and adoption.
853
:Roll up timeframe that we really need
to continue advancing the technology
854
:make this a key consideration, but I
think that is the biggest risk to B.
855
:C.
856
:I.
857
:And it's something that we
don't necessarily have to
858
:deal with for another decade.
859
:Mike: Yeah, no, that's really interesting.
860
:It makes sense.
861
:I guess for when you mentioned all
of the various books and movies and
862
:TV shows that have taken advantage of
this concept of the ethical and the
863
:more the social cultural implications
of this technology for Gen Xers like
864
:me, it's obviously the Terminator.
865
:But more recently, the I think the show
Black Mirror has done a really good job
866
:with Playing with these ideas in terms of,
there's one episode there where they had
867
:an implanted device that had the ability
to serve as a hard drive for memories and
868
:interfered with how relationships were
and how people did or didn't remember
869
:things and could be erased, as you say.
870
:Yeah, the prospect of this kind
of thing happening and being
871
:hacked is quite worrisome.
872
:But, it sounds like we're obviously
a long ways off from that.
873
:And but it is interesting to think
about because it is important.
874
:To think in broad strokes around
again, just as analogous to the genetic
875
:technology and the potential for cloning,
it's important to think in broad strokes
876
:around, okay this is very promising
technology, but it's a bit like Prometheus
877
:in the fire and we have to be careful
that we don't let it get out of control.
878
:Steven: Of course.
879
:And when you get into genetics,
the ethic, the ethics around
880
:genetics, here's my take on it.
881
:Obviously, cloning is a
little bit different, right?
882
:So what is the purpose of cloning?
883
:Okay just to do it is not
a good not a good reason.
884
:We have the capability.
885
:You should take a look at what Dr.
886
:Sinclair over at Harvard Medical is
doing some incredible research, but he's
887
:just one of many that are able to do it.
888
:To do this, we have the capability to take
a skin cell and make it pluripotent and
889
:turn it into any other cell that we want.
890
:We can take that and in a petri dish,
we could take your skin cells and then
891
:turn that, turn the clock back, right?
892
:And we can essentially build an organ.
893
:It's incredible what you can do.
894
:So from a potential medical application,
I feel like it's going to be incredible.
895
:Thousands of people die every
single day waiting for an organ
896
:transplant, an organ donor, right?
897
:Imagine having the capability To within
one to two days or even intraday,
898
:take your cells and 3D print or
grow another organ that your body
899
:will not reject because it is yours.
900
:It is from your own cells.
901
:You take the organ donation
list completely off the table.
902
:I'm sorry.
903
:To the black market because that
would be a horrible day for you.
904
:And you have the ability to save
countless lives just from growing
905
:from taking that technology.
906
:Now, obviously the implications or ethical
considerations for growing and cloning.
907
:Yourself.
908
:The primary reason there's many reasons,
but the primary reason is why we
909
:don't have a reason to do that right
now, and the expense is astronomical.
910
:So why would we go through an
incredible expense, an ethical
911
:moral dilemma for really no reason
until I do see a future again.
912
:This is very hypothetical,
but I do believe there is.
913
:Chance that it is feasible where
we actually have the ability
914
:to transfer your consciousness,
transfer your memories, transfer
915
:your brain activity into that clone.
916
:When we have that capability, now it
becomes there's a reason to do it.
917
:So now that might bypass the the negative.
918
:Potential negative
inclination to not do it.
919
:And now you have a very legitimate
reason to implement cloning technology.
920
:So that's my take.
921
:Cloning however, my, from a
moral perspective, a lot of
922
:people are against gene editing.
923
:They say we shouldn't play God.
924
:They say we shouldn't do
anything from a moral approach.
925
:My argument is always, if I have
the ability to save a life, I see
926
:that as a good thing, I have a moral
obligation to take that technology that
927
:we've developed and save that life.
928
:If I can cure you of
cancer, when medicine.
929
:A lot of people would say that is
a good thing, but if you do it with
930
:genetics, genetic engineering synthetic
protein injections or anything like
931
:that, now it's crossing a line.
932
:You did good.
933
:You saved that life, but you played God.
934
:My personal opinion on
that is it's bullshit.
935
:If you have technological capability
to save lives, countless millions
936
:of lives, I think you have a moral
obligation to utilize that technology.
937
:Mike: Yeah, for sure.
938
:I think and I appreciate that.
939
:And I think the important thing is to just
have space for the conversations, right?
940
:Have opportunity for experts like
ethicists and philosophers to weigh in
941
:on these sorts of issues as well, right?
942
:Because then, of course, that will inform
the discussion that the technologists and
943
:the venture capitalists and the investors
and everyone's putting in their work.
944
:Transcribed advice and expertise
into trying to steer the technology
945
:in a way that's going to be
maximally beneficial for humanity
946
:Steven: Absolutely, it's important.
947
:And I do not know what that Collaboration,
or panel would look like from a
948
:geopolitical Perspective, right?
949
:Something along the lines of
NATO, where multiple people get
950
:a say from various countries.
951
:But you also need various verticals.
952
:Like you just said, you need the
scientists to weigh in and they're going
953
:to have a different perspective than the
regulators and the regulators are going to
954
:be different than the venture capitalists
because they're just in it for the money.
955
:So I do.
956
:I do not know what that looks like.
957
:I do think it's Potentially necessary.
958
:My fear is it won't happen because, as I
referenced earlier, when you realize that
959
:from an international point of view, if
960
:China develops the technology and
starts implementing the technology
961
:What happens when this collaboration
of multiple countries comes in
962
:and says, you can't do this.
963
:So there's lots of considerations and
obviously I don't run the country.
964
:So I'm not going to crack the
whip and get in there and say it.
965
:Just all I can do is share my perspective.
966
:There's, it's going to be some
significant hurdles to cross from
967
:a moral, um, perspective for sure.
968
:I think we will get there, but the
exciting thing is that technology
969
:is progressing very quickly and.
970
:We're seeing some exciting things.
971
:Now how to go about implementing
it that is above my pay grade.
972
:Mike: Yeah, for sure.
973
:No, and similarly, that
phrase was in my mind as well.
974
:I think, obviously, there's huge
implications in terms of national defense
975
:issues and all different kinds of things.
976
:But yeah, I think, hopefully, maybe
this is Overly optimistic, but I think
977
:I'm tend to be a believer in the market
actually sorting things out for the
978
:better in any event, with some necessary
regulation as you're referring to
979
:but yeah, I know considerations in
terms of the, our relationship with.
980
:Different parts of the world
like China in particular.
981
:I think that's something
for sure to be conscious of.
982
:Just looking at time here.
983
:We're getting pretty close to the end
point, but I thought maybe it would be
984
:good if you have a bit, another five
or so minutes if just to zoom out a
985
:little bit and maybe try to circle back
a little to what we were talking about
986
:right at the beginning, and viewers
and listeners are interested in your
987
:particular journey and what we were
talking a little bit there about, the
988
:importance of things like resilience.
989
:So maybe if you don't mind just speaking
to that a little bit and helping us
990
:to understand for you and your journey
what's resilience been like for you.
991
:And in particular, how do you
find that these days you handle,
992
:stress and adversity and high
stakes business situations.
993
:Steven: Absolutely.
994
:As I mentioned, success is not
linear and success is relative.
995
:What success is to me is going
to be different to someone else.
996
:And I also think that
success is a moving target.
997
:Because I never thought
that And right now, right?
998
:And I think you set goals for yourself.
999
:You want to achieve X and you
usually have a reason for that.
:
00:56:04,190 --> 00:56:07,120
I want to achieve a hundred thousand
dollars a year so that I can take care of
:
00:56:07,130 --> 00:56:10,090
my family and I don't want to be reliant
on a job that could fire me tomorrow.
:
00:56:10,620 --> 00:56:11,610
Okay that's great.
:
00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:13,250
But then what happens when you get there?
:
00:56:13,540 --> 00:56:16,650
For many people, that
would be their end goal.
:
00:56:16,915 --> 00:56:18,425
They're comfortable there.
:
00:56:18,455 --> 00:56:20,565
They achieve their version of success.
:
00:56:20,905 --> 00:56:23,535
And who am I to say
you're thinking too small?
:
00:56:24,255 --> 00:56:26,555
I would not understand someone, right?
:
00:56:26,585 --> 00:56:28,955
I can't empathize.
:
00:56:28,995 --> 00:56:31,375
I can empathize, because I
understand their perspective.
:
00:56:31,385 --> 00:56:32,815
But I would never understand it.
:
00:56:32,815 --> 00:56:36,335
Because for me, if once you
reach that goal, what's next?
:
00:56:36,415 --> 00:56:39,800
I'm Innately driven for more.
:
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:45,920
So everyone version of success looks
different But for that, I think it's
:
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,270
a moving target for most entrepreneurs
because once they achieve that
:
00:56:50,270 --> 00:56:52,440
goal Like myself they want more.
:
00:56:52,490 --> 00:56:56,830
And I don't think that is a greed or
selfishness I think that is just an innate
:
00:56:56,850 --> 00:57:03,170
desire psychologically imprinted in them
whether that's genetics or circumstantial
:
00:57:03,210 --> 00:57:06,910
that developed over time, they're
just driven to more and more success.
:
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:12,070
So a lot of people I've met, I know
a lot of people who sold a company
:
00:57:12,130 --> 00:57:17,380
for 10, a hundred, 150, 200 million.
:
00:57:17,380 --> 00:57:21,540
Most people on earth would
think you're done, right?
:
00:57:21,590 --> 00:57:22,310
You have made it.
:
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:25,890
But the interesting thing is most
of those people some of those
:
00:57:25,910 --> 00:57:28,940
will, will take a hiatus, right?
:
00:57:28,990 --> 00:57:29,800
Take a year off.
:
00:57:30,255 --> 00:57:31,465
Enjoy the fruits of your labor.
:
00:57:31,465 --> 00:57:32,185
You deserved it.
:
00:57:32,505 --> 00:57:35,985
But during that year, they're fidgety
They want to get back in because they
:
00:57:35,985 --> 00:57:39,035
just they crave more and more success.
:
00:57:39,075 --> 00:57:41,565
I do not think that comes from a area.
:
00:57:41,905 --> 00:57:43,075
A mindset of greed.
:
00:57:43,265 --> 00:57:47,515
I think it's just a drive So that's one
thing that I will point out now to get
:
00:57:47,515 --> 00:57:54,710
to your question about resilience you
to be an entrepreneur that desires The
:
00:57:54,710 --> 00:57:58,280
level of success in the millions, right?
:
00:57:58,330 --> 00:58:02,940
And again, that doesn't necessarily
have to be monetary based it can be I
:
00:58:02,940 --> 00:58:07,600
want to do x good for the planet and
therefore if I achieve this I will be
:
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,260
rewarded monetarily, but money is not
a factor for me regardless what you're
:
00:58:12,260 --> 00:58:19,325
trying to accomplish if your goal is big
The resilience factor for you has to be
:
00:58:19,965 --> 00:58:23,045
incredibly big to achieve it by that.
:
00:58:23,055 --> 00:58:27,765
You are going to, if you're going to be an
entrepreneur, if you're going to take that
:
00:58:27,765 --> 00:58:29,955
step, you have to be prepare yourself.
:
00:58:29,975 --> 00:58:32,045
Otherwise you're going to quit
the first time that you get
:
00:58:32,125 --> 00:58:34,585
hit with the inevitability of.
:
00:58:35,105 --> 00:58:37,345
And defeat doesn't have
to be definitive, right?
:
00:58:37,345 --> 00:58:40,665
You can overcome defeat,
but you will lose deals.
:
00:58:40,665 --> 00:58:41,845
You will lose contracts.
:
00:58:41,845 --> 00:58:44,705
You will be betrayed by
close business partners.
:
00:58:44,935 --> 00:58:46,675
You will have people back
out of the contracts.
:
00:58:46,705 --> 00:58:48,055
You will have people sue you.
:
00:58:48,225 --> 00:58:51,115
It, all of these things will
happen to you at some point.
:
00:58:51,135 --> 00:58:54,065
I does not matter if you are a.
:
00:58:54,565 --> 00:58:58,795
Brick and mortar franchise owner,
or if you are Elon Musk, right?
:
00:58:59,095 --> 00:59:01,425
This is just the way
that the game is played.
:
00:59:01,475 --> 00:59:06,145
You have to mentally fortify
yourself ahead of time, knowing
:
00:59:06,375 --> 00:59:09,765
not what's going to happen, but
that something is going to happen.
:
00:59:09,805 --> 00:59:12,875
And you have to have resilience
built into your mindset that
:
00:59:12,885 --> 00:59:16,715
when things do go, not go my way.
:
00:59:18,025 --> 00:59:21,205
I'm going to do whatever
it takes to bypass them.
:
00:59:21,425 --> 00:59:25,505
Now, the one thing I know I'm droning
on and we need to cut this time short.
:
00:59:25,945 --> 00:59:31,955
But the one thing that I would
say is I was ready to call it.
:
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:34,830
Quits more times than I could count.
:
00:59:35,330 --> 00:59:40,950
So when I say that build in a mindset
of resilience ahead of time, that
:
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:46,190
is not going to that does not mean
that you are not going to sit there
:
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:51,060
with your hands in your face in your
hands at some point and say, I'm done.
:
00:59:51,180 --> 00:59:52,570
I think every.
:
00:59:52,860 --> 00:59:58,780
Big entrepreneur has so much stress
on their plate because as you get
:
00:59:58,780 --> 01:00:00,700
bigger, you have more responsibility.
:
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,810
And that's to your responsibility
inevitably will grow, whether that's
:
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:10,700
more employees, more mouths to
feed, more investors to keep happy.
:
01:00:10,750 --> 01:00:14,260
And you can't keep everyone happy
is just not going to happen.
:
01:00:14,530 --> 01:00:20,130
So when those things happen, it's
very easy to want to give up and the
:
01:00:20,130 --> 01:00:25,420
resilience factor is something that
you need to prepare yourself ahead of
:
01:00:25,420 --> 01:00:30,010
time, but just realize that you're,
you can never really be prepared until
:
01:00:30,010 --> 01:00:31,400
you're actually in the situation.
:
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,770
For me, unfortunately there's
really no one that I can point to
:
01:00:35,770 --> 01:00:39,470
an actionable thing that I can say,
this is how you get through it.
:
01:00:39,940 --> 01:00:43,480
It's all mindset and you have
to have an incredible amount of
:
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,500
resilience to get through that those
hard times so that you can actually
:
01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:49,200
achieve what you want to accomplish.
:
01:00:49,350 --> 01:00:51,740
One of the things you
hear a lot of people.
:
01:00:52,285 --> 01:00:58,785
Say what is your why I think if you don't
have a reason And regardless of what that
:
01:00:58,785 --> 01:01:00,545
reason is, it needs to be a strong one.
:
01:01:01,095 --> 01:01:05,875
Even if that reason is I was picked
on in school, I don't want to do that
:
01:01:05,875 --> 01:01:08,145
anymore, so I want to be physically fit.
:
01:01:08,585 --> 01:01:11,925
Okay, now I get hit with a disease
that makes it very hard to get fit.
:
01:01:12,450 --> 01:01:17,720
Are you going to quit or is the why
strong enough to propel you to overcome
:
01:01:17,770 --> 01:01:21,790
that circumstance that hit you in the
face and it wasn't your fault, right?
:
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:26,370
So that's just one example of what
I would say is resilience is you, if
:
01:01:26,370 --> 01:01:30,990
you're going to get started in anything,
the why needs to be very powerful.
:
01:01:31,490 --> 01:01:32,420
Mike: Yeah, no, that's great.
:
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:33,500
There's a lot of wisdom there.
:
01:01:33,500 --> 01:01:34,630
I really appreciate that.
:
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:37,580
Look, Steven, I really
appreciate the conversation.
:
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,550
I think it's great to finish on a
positive note there for viewers.
:
01:01:40,550 --> 01:01:42,510
I think we can all learn from that.
:
01:01:42,530 --> 01:01:44,080
And it is very inspiring.
:
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,120
So thank you so much once again.
:
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:50,070
And, we'll add any relevant
links to the show notes.
:
01:01:50,110 --> 01:01:55,100
I invite people to put questions
and comments in the comment section.
:
01:01:55,540 --> 01:01:58,250
And please do share this
episode with anyone that you
:
01:01:58,260 --> 01:01:59,450
think might benefit from it.
:
01:01:59,460 --> 01:02:01,570
I think it's been a very
interesting conversation.
:
01:02:01,990 --> 01:02:06,480
And once again, Stephen, I just want to
thank you very much for your time and
:
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:07,970
your expertise and for sharing this.
:
01:02:07,970 --> 01:02:09,400
And it would be great to keep in touch.
:
01:02:10,300 --> 01:02:10,840
Steven: Absolutely.
:
01:02:11,060 --> 01:02:12,380
It was an absolute pleasure.
:
01:02:12,380 --> 01:02:14,060
Thanks for the stimulating conversation.
:
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:14,990
Mike: Okay.
:
01:02:15,050 --> 01:02:15,360
All right.
:
01:02:15,370 --> 01:02:15,920
Have a good one.
:
01:02:15,950 --> 01:02:16,320
Take care.
:
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:16,680
See ya.
:
01:02:17,340 --> 01:02:17,690
Cheers.
:
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:18,580
Okay.
:
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:18,760
Bye.
:
01:02:18,780 --> 01:02:19,040
Bye.
:
01:02:20,350 --> 01:02:24,500
Thank you so much once again for joining
us today on the Neurostimulation Podcast.
:
01:02:25,095 --> 01:02:28,685
I hope that you enjoyed this fascinating
exploration into the world of
:
01:02:28,685 --> 01:02:31,705
neuroscience and biotech as much as I did.
:
01:02:32,315 --> 01:02:35,685
If you found today's episode
interesting, don't forget to like
:
01:02:35,685 --> 01:02:37,325
and subscribe to the podcast.
:
01:02:37,635 --> 01:02:41,345
It's the best way to make sure that you
never miss an episode, and it helps us
:
01:02:41,345 --> 01:02:43,555
to reach more curious minds like ours.
:
01:02:44,195 --> 01:02:47,285
Also, if you think that today's
episode might resonate with a
:
01:02:47,295 --> 01:02:51,375
friend, a family member, or a
colleague, please share it with them.
:
01:02:51,715 --> 01:02:54,905
Knowledge is better when it's shared
and you never know who might find
:
01:02:54,905 --> 01:02:57,245
this information helpful or inspiring.
:
01:02:58,115 --> 01:03:01,835
For more details about the companies,
the research and the technology that
:
01:03:01,835 --> 01:03:05,375
we discussed today, please check out
the links in the show notes below.
:
01:03:05,825 --> 01:03:09,285
You'll find everything that you need
to dive deeper into the topic and
:
01:03:09,285 --> 01:03:14,810
to explore the various companies and
technologies that we discussed today.
:
01:03:15,350 --> 01:03:17,130
I would also love to hear your thoughts.
:
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,640
Please join the conversation
in the comment section or reach
:
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,950
out to us on social media, your
questions, ideas, and feedback.
:
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:26,610
Make this podcast better.
:
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,880
Finally, don't forget to
tune into the next episode.
:
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:34,160
It's going to be another exciting journey
into the cutting edge of neuroscience
:
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:35,760
and clinical neurostimulation.
:
01:03:36,340 --> 01:03:37,660
Thank you again for listening.
:
01:03:37,890 --> 01:03:41,880
I sincerely appreciate your time,
your interest, and your attention.
:
01:03:42,380 --> 01:03:46,760
Take care, stay curious, be well,
and I'll see you next time on
:
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,660
the Neurostimulation Podcast.
