Episode 9

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Published on:

1st Feb 2025

Joel Bouchard - Episode 9 - Feb 1, 2025

Exploring the Mind of a Generalist: Joel Bouchard on Creativity, Psychology, and Community Leadership

In this episode of the Neurostimulation Podcast, host Michael Passmore welcomes the multifaceted Joel Bouchard. Joel is a doctoral student in psychology, a multi-instrumentalist record producer, author, painter, army veteran, business leader, local government official, and podcaster. They discuss the benefits of being a generalist, the intersection of creativity and psychology, lessons from Joel's time in the military, and much more. Tune in to explore how diverse fields of knowledge can be connected for personal growth and community betterment.


00:00 Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast

01:07 Introducing Joel Bouchard: A Multifaceted Guest

02:03 Joel's Diverse Background and Interests

05:22 The Advantages of Being a Generalist

19:25 The Intersection of Music and Psychology

39:20 Creative Problem Solving and Life Balance

43:37 Embracing Life's Challenges

44:38 Reframing Struggles for Growth

46:38 Personal Academic Journey

48:50 Exploring Doctoral Studies

55:14 Community Leadership and Volunteering

01:05:24 The Philosophy Podcast Journey

01:10:36 The Future of Long-Form Conversations

01:16:58 Advice for Aspiring Generalists

01:20:25 Conclusion and Final Thoughts


Joel's podcast: https://jbouchard.podbean.com


Joel's book: https://a.co/d/fYFYifH


Joel's music: https://joelbouchardmusic.com

Transcript
Mike:

Welcome to the Neurostimulation Podcast.

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I'm Michael Passmore, Clinical

Associate Professor in the Department

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of Psychiatry at the University of

British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.

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The Neurostimulation Podcast is all

about bringing cutting edge neuroscience

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and neurostimulation education to

you every week, free of charge.

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We're going to explore the latest

research and how that research is being

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translated into real world treatments

that can improve health and well being.

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I wanted to also mention that this

podcast is separate from my clinical

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and academic roles, and is part of my

effort to bring neuroscience education

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to the general public free of charge.

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Accordingly, I just want to remind

you that the information shared and

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discussed here today is intended for

educational purposes only, and not

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as medical advice or a substitute

for professional medical guidance.

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Today I'm really looking forward

to a discussion with a truly

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multifaceted guest, Joel Bouchard.

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Joel is a doctoral student in psychology,

a multi instrumentalist record producer,

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an author, a painter, an army veteran, a

business leader, and a local government

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official, as well as a podcaster.

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He describes himself as a

generalist who thrives on connecting

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diverse fields of knowledge.

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Today, we're going to explore the benefits

of being a generalist, how creativity

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and psychology intersect, lessons from

his time in the military and much more.

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Joel, welcome to the podcast.

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It's great to have you here.

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Joel: Yeah, thanks for having me on.

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I really appreciate it.

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Mike: So maybe you can start

by, introducing yourself to

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us and telling us a little

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about your background and expanding

on some of those concepts that I

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introduced there at the beginning.

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Joel: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I'll give you uh, just a little

bit more detail on my background.

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So um, I'm a podcaster as well.

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I have a philosophy podcast

from nowhere to nothing.

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Um, I just found out we're in the

top 5 percent of Podcasts globally

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at another podcast or reach out to

me and tell me so I wasn't aware,

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but, um, so we do pretty well.

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Uh, it's me and my resident expert who

is a former philosophy professor of mine.

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And usually what we'll do is, um,

we'll look at one word or two words.

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And, um, we'll delve into sort

of the formative aspects of

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it, you know, what philosophers

have said historically about it.

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And then we'll, uh, discuss, um, you

know, what it means today in the context

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of, uh, the historical evaluation.

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And then we'll talk about speculative

elements, you know, what does it

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mean for humankind or what does

it mean for, for us personally?

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Uh, so, but each week we spend about

an hour just looking at one concept.

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So, uh, that's the podcast side of it.

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Um, my day job is I'm a production

manager for a manufacturing facility.

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Uh, we make parts for, uh, the

safety industry and the power grid.

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Um, and then, uh, I'm a village

trustee, uh, in the village I live in.

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Um, so I oversee public safety, uh, fire

and police, uh, parks and recreation,

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um, as well as a few other things.

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Um, then, yeah, I'm, uh, um, you, as

you can see, I'm kind of in my studio

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right now, so I play seven different

instruments, and, uh, I record them all

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separately, put them all together, and

I like to release some albums online,

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so if you, uh, if you Google my name,

uh, or you put it into Apple Music or

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Spotify, wherever, you'll find my, find

my music, and you could listen to it.

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Um, I like to paint.

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I just released a, uh, uh, novel that

I wrote, The Sleeper, the Scholar and

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the Strix that can be found on Amazon.

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And, uh, and it's, that's kind of

scratching the surface a little bit.

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Um, I'm a PhD student in psychology

and, uh, I like to 3d print.

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I like to ride motorcycles.

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I like to, uh, do some astrophotography.

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I like to mountain climb.

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Uh, you know, so all kinds

of different stuff, but

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Mike: that's kind of the background.

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Yeah, I know.

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That's incredible.

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That's really, yeah.

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Thank you for summarizing that,

for folks watching and listening.

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We'll put all the links to get access

to all of Joel's content, we'll

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put those in the show notes so that

you can definitely explore that.

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I would highly encourage you to.

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I'm going to for sure.

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So Joel, just remind me now,

whereabouts are you based?

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So I'm

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Joel: in Western New York.

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So, uh, you know, you hear about Buffalo

getting six feet of snow in a day.

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I'm pretty close to that, that area.

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So we're in the depths

of winter right now.

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Mike: Right.

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Okay.

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Well, I won't bring up the NFL.

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Sorry.

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It's too late now.

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Yeah.

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Joel: It's a sore, sore topic

around here right now, but yeah.

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Mike: Yeah.

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I heard the officiating was left a lot to

be desired, but in any way, in any event.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Um, yeah, well, that's I mean, honestly,

like, it's very impressive, you know, wide

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ranging interests and skills for sure.

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And I think that it kind of speaks to

my first thoughts and question in terms

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of your description of yourself as a

generalist and in a world that often kind

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of channels people into specific silos

and rewards hyper-specialization, I was

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curious to know what do you see as some

of the biggest advantages of being a

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generalist in that kind of social milieu?

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Joel: Yeah, I think I sort of

have an evolving view of it.

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Um, as, as life goes on, um, you know,

I think that in many ways, uh, our,

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our society and our culture still do

reward specialization to a large degree.

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Um, if you consider reward, um, You

know, monetary success like I I've

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I'm very lucky in the fact that I've

achieved some of the position that I

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have and I believe that the position

that I have achieved is due to my my

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generalist abilities, you know, well,

being an army vet as well, right?

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I've I've done a lot of work

with my hands, a lot of manual

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labor, but I've also done a lot

of intellectual academic work.

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Mhm.

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Um, and I've done a lot of people work.

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And so, you know, most organizations,

um, you can find a management role

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for a person like that, right?

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You want somebody who is intellectually

capable and has interpersonal skills,

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but it also helps if you have somebody

who's, um, worked with their hands a

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little bit so they can kind of understand

what the people on the floor are

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doing and what they're working with.

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So I love my job.

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It's, it's, uh, it's great.

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You know, it's a good mix of work,

um, without being too stressful or

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overwhelming, that type of thing.

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Um, but I think that really, um, the

rewarding aspect of being a generalist,

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um, is isn't that stuff, right?

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I think that if you want to make a

lot of money and that's your idea of

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living a good life, then specialize.

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You know, specialize in something

and that you'll be good off.

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But, but I think that, um, what I've

learned as life goes on is that that's

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just such a small part of What success

means as a human being and, um, I

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think that that's really where being a

generalist is rewarding is, um, you know,

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looking at life through a philosophical

lens and a psychological lens and an

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artistic lens and, um, you know, uh,

the lens of somebody who's been in the

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military and who's worked in a factory.

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And the more perspectives you can gain

on it, Um, the more you can identify

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with people from diverse backgrounds, uh,

the more you start to, um, see life in

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is objective away as you possibly can.

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None of us ever can, right?

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We all live in with our own subjectivity.

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Mike: Hm,

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Joel: but you.

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You can approach a variety of

situations and have a keener insight

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into them than somebody would who,

um, who didn't take those routes.

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Mike: Yeah, yeah, totally.

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That makes sense.

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It reminds me of this metaphor.

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I'm working on an essay and, uh,

from years ago, I had this memory

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of a really interesting metaphor

from a book called Sophie's World.

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By Jostein Gaarder.

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I don't know if you know that book, but

it's kind of a fictional tour through

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the history of philosophy, basically, and

the metaphor that he uses is a magician

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pulling a rabbit out of a hat, and he

considers what if, you know, a person

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is a tiny, tiny little person that's

clinging to one strand of fur on the

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rabbit that's being pulled out of the hat.

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Bear with me because the metaphor kind

of makes sense, although it sounds

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strange, but most people being specialists

are tending to kind of want to burrow

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right down and towards the skin of

the rabbit where they kind of find

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their own little warm niche and they

kind of live out their life with their

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specialization in their own little silo.

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But what he's encouraging in the metaphor

is for people to do the opposite, to

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climb the strand of fur and to come up and

eventually sort of look at the magician

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in the eye, so to speak, and, you know,

getting into kind of more philosophical

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and maybe spiritual kinds of advantages

to not necessarily specializing, but

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as you say, you know, approach life

in a much more balanced way, which I

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think probably makes perfect sense in

terms of lending itself to health and

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wellness as opposed to burnout and,

you know, isolation that often happens,

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I think, in people who cling to, uh,

tightly to a specialization, even though

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of course we do need specialists and

there's, there's definitely benefits

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to having specialized expertise, but

yeah, I know it's super interesting.

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Joel: Yeah, and you know, and you can

be a specialist in your career field too

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and still be a generalist as a person.

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And I think that that's really, um, the

definition of personal growth, right?

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Of self actualization.

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Um, and yeah, your metaphor there is

really great because and it encapsulates

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a couple of things that, um, Are really

are what make a generalist special and

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what what can is kind of the key to life

in some ways for me the way I think about

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it and one of them is, um, you know, is

confronting uncomfortable things, right?

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Which is what philosophy

is all about, right?

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Thinking about.

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Hey, um, what happens after you die?

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Or where did the universe come from?

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You know, and you know, these

questions that keep people up at night.

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Um, you're you're aware, you know, with

psychology, the more you familiarize

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yourself with some of these concepts,

um, the less scary they become, right?

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It's kind of this immersion

therapy type type thing.

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And the other part of it is, um, it's

the same thing with failure, right?

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It's this idea of Interpreting

what failure means and if you're

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a real generalist, you'll run

up against that quite a bit.

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Um, you know, you don't it's it's

easy if you're a specialist to okay.

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I learned one thing and at the beginning.

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I wasn't very good, but now I'm a master

and then you kind of let that status

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of being a master being an expert.

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Become the defining aspect of

your personality, but if you're

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a generalist, if you're always

learning something new, then you're

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always in the process of failing.

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I'm failing all the time.

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It's something, but rather than

viewing failure as as an end.

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It's more, uh, what's the saying?

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Uh, you've never failed until

you stop failing, right?

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So it's, it's more just learning, right?

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You're just, you're just

constantly learning new things.

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And, and with learning comes,

uh, difficulties, obstacles and

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learning how to problem solve.

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And so I think that that's why.

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If you look throughout history and

you see people who were polymaths or

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renaissance men or whoever, I think that's

why they tend to be philosophers first

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and foremost, right, is because, again,

the more things that you do and the more

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aspects you kind of look at life in, um,

In order to live that kind of life, you

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really can't be daunted by, by failure.

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Um, you know, you're, because you're

always learning new things and you come

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to become very comfortable with things

that, uh, you know, might make other

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people very uneasy, you know, um, but I

think that doing those things, confronting

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things that make people uneasy.

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And becoming, uh, okay with, with, you

know, not getting things right the first

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time is sort of the key to becoming

comfortable with a lot of the things

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that caused burnout and stress for

people in our kind of modern society.

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Mike: Yeah, definitely.

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100%.

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It really speaks to the importance

of balance and maintaining that

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balance also helps to kind of.

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Prevent burnout and keep interested

in different things that one gets

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interested in right without, you know,

kind of getting too focused in on.

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I think there's a tendency sometimes for

people to get focused in on something

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they're super interested in, and then

that comes at the expense of perhaps

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other things that need to be attended

to, but by kind of sampling different

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interests and trying to spread.

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Time and attention in a healthy way.

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That can also be something that

sustains the ability to continue to

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be productive in a variety of domains.

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And so you kind of get the best

of both worlds in that sense.

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Joel: Yeah.

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And I think that, um, that that's

another sort of, um, difficulty

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with being an expert, right.

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Is that, uh, we've all heard that in order

to become an expert, it's something you

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have to spend 10, 000 hours doing, right.

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Well, something that comes along

with those 10, 000 hours is, um,

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again, that sense of familiarity,

that practice, that just.

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That's it's sort of hard packs things,

you know, and, um, I think when you

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always have something you can bounce

around to it, it kind of keeps it fresh.

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Like music is a good one for

me because I've been doing

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music for a very long time now.

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And, um, one thing I've always

noticed, you know, as you listen

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to an artist and okay, man.

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Uh, maybe their first album isn't isn't

real great than the second one's a little

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bit better than the third one's awesome

and then the fourth one sounds a little

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bit stale and then anything beyond that

is kinda and you go, what happened?

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Why?

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Why is that sort of the trend?

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Um, and I think that part of that

is, is this a practice effect?

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You know, when, when you're first

learning something, you have these

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creative insights, you have the

ability to see things in a fresh way.

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And if you get too wound up in

practice, you know, and with with

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music, you can do technical practice

or you can run through scales.

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You can run through chords.

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You can run through drum fills

or whatever happens to be and

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you become technically better.

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But at the same time, you're wearing

ruts in your mind as to things you

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can sort of fall back on, uh, when

in, in a creative sense, and that's,

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that's something that's detrimental to

creating new, exciting things, right?

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And so I try to, I try to practice

creatively is what I call it, where,

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um, okay, well, if I'm going to sit

down and practice rather than running

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through the same things over and over.

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I've got that muscle memory already.

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I know what the chords are,

I know what the scales are.

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Instead I'm gonna try to play something

that I've never played before.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Joel: And then usually that

will lead, as soon as you play

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something, you go, oh wait.

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Wow.

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That's something I've never done.

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That's kind of cool.

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And then it connects to this thing

and I can kind of, then I can kind

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of pull in some of the old things

that I've done before and make

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something new out of it, you know?

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Mike: Yeah.

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Joel: Um.

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Or, you know, just like we were saying,

jump into a different, a different thing

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all together, you know, going to painting

or going to writing and then coming back

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and not practicing, you know, there's been

times in my life where I haven't touched

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an instrument for two or three months

and then come back to music and then

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immediately have just a rush of new ideas.

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Um, So, I'm not this, I'm not a huge

proponent of you should practice every day

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the same thing over and over again so that

it becomes, uh, you know, second nature.

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I think that there's, there's a place for

a little bit of that at the beginning,

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um, in order to get the muscle memory.

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But then after that, I think that

really, practice should be a, a creative

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endeavor in itself to some extent.

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Mike: Yeah, no, 100%.

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I think that's great.

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I'm gonna, I'm taking notes because,

you know, my kids are involved with,

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you know, piano lessons and such.

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And sometimes it's a

challenge to encourage that.

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But, you know, the thing is

really, you know, and I regret

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this because, you know, I kind of

bailed on piano lessons prematurely.

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Now looking back at Um, you know,

thinking I could have probably

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continued on with that and would

have enjoyed being able to, you know,

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produce the music on the other end.

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But having the challenge of just

encouraging the kids, but framing it

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in that sense, I think hopefully we'll

have some purchase in terms of their

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willingness to knuckle down and, you

know, do the chords and do the repetitive

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work that seems boring at the time.

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But as you say, is necessary to build

the muscle memory and get that mastery

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so that the enjoyment then comes out of

the the skill that one develops, right?

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So 100%.

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And it makes me think of, you know, what

you were referring to just now about

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the importance of learning to, you know,

work with your hands and do physical

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activities and balancing that with

intellectual pursuits for the same reason.

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You know, I always valued, um, working

for my dad who had a construction company.

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And so it gave me, you know, two

thirds of the year in school and a

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third of the year in the summers.

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Working outside with my hands.

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And I just think that that was

so valuable as part of just

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balancing growth and development

through, you know, college years.

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And it was really something that I'm going

to try and encourage my own kids to do and

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that I would encourage others to really

try and find that type of balance in

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terms of the physicality of activity that

people are engaged in from day to day.

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Joel: Yeah, there's two

aspects of it, right?

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We know that there's um, There's a

lot of research that's coming out

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that that just being in nature, just

being outside is really good for us.

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Um, but then on top of that, there's

sort of the kind of, uh, you know,

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common sense, but overlooked, um,

fact that you can't have a strong

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mind without a strong body, you know?

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And so, you know, being physical,

you know, be, you know, making sure

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that you're taking care of yourself

physically is the first step to,

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um, really enjoying things from.

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You know, and and not just not just

from a cognitive or an academic

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standpoint, but even just feeling

good in your regular everyday life.

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You know, I'm I'm very busy, but I

always make sure that I'm getting

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eight hours of sleep and I'm trying

to follow a good diet and I'm working

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out and you know, not every day.

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It's going to happen.

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But if the pattern of behavior is

right, then it sets you up for success.

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You feel better.

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You know, you have a better mood.

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You think clear and you know, you can

kind of Um, you know, approach life in

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a way that you're, you're ready for.

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I think that it lessens

that, that burnout state.

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Mike: For sure, definitely.

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Um, it's, uh, it is super

important because as you say,

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you know, the, it's, it's, again,

it comes back to balance, right?

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So just making sure that those key

activities, you know, the, the, the

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prioritization of self care in terms

of, as you say, I think I agree.

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Those are three great pillars in terms

of the sleep, you know, the diet and

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the physical activity, whether it's

exercise or, you know, forms of activity

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that, Basically serve as exercise, but,

you know, maybe incorporate some sort

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of interests as well, like gardening

or have you particularly later on

345

:

in life when maybe other more, um,

strenuous forms of exercise aren't

346

:

necessarily as feasible for sure, you

know, and I'm really curious, you know,

347

:

you're like, I would be, um, really

interested to know your thoughts about.

348

:

you know, the intersection between

psychology and music, right?

349

:

Because I think with music, it is

this sort of very, you know, one

350

:

of the, I was actually listening to

another podcast just earlier today,

351

:

um, called theories of everything.

352

:

It's a great one.

353

:

I don't know if you've heard that

or I'd encourage you and any of the

354

:

audience listening and watching now

to check it out with Kurt Gymungel.

355

:

It's called theories of everything and

he was talking to Ian McGilchrist, sorry,

356

:

Ian McGilchrist, who sort of has this

idea about right brain, left brain, right

357

:

hemisphere, left hemisphere functioning.

358

:

And, you know, I know that the sort of

stereotypical perspective on that is that

359

:

the right brain for most people is more

of the sort of open and artistic side.

360

:

And the left brain is more

of the analytical kind of

361

:

sort of logic based side.

362

:

This is more complicated than that's

a bit of a mischaracterization.

363

:

But in any event, I mean, I think the

notion of using all parts of the brain

364

:

kind of in different ways to kind of

just get get the whole brain sort of

365

:

Functioning in a synchronized way and,

um, you know, balancing that type of

366

:

thing that we're talking about, you

know, with, with the music and the

367

:

psychology and the, the intellectual, uh,

you know, inquiry into different sorts

368

:

of, um, philosophical areas as well.

369

:

So, but yeah, like specifically,

I'm curious to know your thoughts on

370

:

that intersection between music and

psychology, um, and you know, what

371

:

you find are the benefits or what

are your interests in that regard?

372

:

Joel: Yeah.

373

:

Yeah.

374

:

Music is.

375

:

Really cool psychologically, right?

376

:

Because I mean, I'm

sure you're well aware.

377

:

Music touches on so many different parts

of the brain, and I think that that's

378

:

what makes it so, um, resilient in the

face of, um, you know, neurodegenerative

379

:

diseases like Alzheimer's and things

where, you know, somebody might not

380

:

be able to remember their name or

anything, but you can play a song

381

:

and they'll remember it, you know?

382

:

And so even something like speech,

right, has three brain areas.

383

:

You know, we got Wernicke's

and Broca's in the left side.

384

:

But then on the right side, you

have one that's associated with

385

:

the melody of the words, right?

386

:

And, uh, you know, you can do this cool

experiment where if you just take A short

387

:

clip of audio of somebody talking like

we are right now and you loop just a

388

:

couple seconds of it over and over again.

389

:

All of a sudden, your brain will

make it into a song like you can

390

:

feel the melody of it, right?

391

:

And so, yeah, it's music is sort of baked

into the base layer of our psychology,

392

:

which is fascinating because It's not

something that really exists in nature.

393

:

You know, we think of bird songs as being

musical, but really that's just their,

394

:

their kind of form of communication.

395

:

Music is, is, um, a wholly

human endeavor in many ways.

396

:

So psychologically, uh,

it's just fascinating.

397

:

It's, it's super cool.

398

:

Um, and I think that, uh, I do well with

it because I have mixed dominants, right?

399

:

Um, I was meant to be left

handed, so I'm left side dominant.

400

:

Um, but in kindergarten, uh, I was

switching between my left and my

401

:

right hand writing, and I was, you

know, writing letters backwards

402

:

and all kinds of crazy stuff.

403

:

And finally, my exasperated first

grade teacher at one point grabbed

404

:

my right hand and said, from now

on, you only write with this hand.

405

:

I said, Whoa, okay.

406

:

All right.

407

:

That's, that's what I'll do.

408

:

So I became right handed.

409

:

Um, but I have a dominant

left eye and left leg.

410

:

So in soccer, I always play the left

striker and kick with the left foot.

411

:

Um, and I've got all kinds of weird stuff

now where I'll shoot a rifle in the army

412

:

right handed, but I'll shoot a bow and

arrow left handed and it's all crazy.

413

:

So in some ways it can kind of screw

you up a little bit, but in other

414

:

ways it opens the possibilities that I

have and music is one of them, right?

415

:

Um, another one is like

driving a manual car.

416

:

My first car was a standard shift

and nobody had to teach me, right?

417

:

I just got in and started doing it because

I had that coordination between the limbs.

418

:

Same thing with drums, right?

419

:

I didn't, I didn't really have to.

420

:

Struggle to learn how to coordinate all

the limbs that most people do when they

421

:

start playing drums as they will just

kind of sit behind the kit and start

422

:

playing so this communication between

the analytical side of the brain the

423

:

creative side of the brain i think

that's something that that i have a

424

:

particular knack for because of that.

425

:

Case that that mixed dominance

case and there's there's it causes

426

:

me issues in other ways, right?

427

:

One of them is auditory processing

where as long as things are

428

:

totally quiet like they are now

Um, I have perfect hearing right?

429

:

I have it tested zero decibels of hearing

loss across the whole spectrum Um, but

430

:

if there's background noise, all of a

sudden, I can't make out anything that

431

:

a voice is saying, like nothing, um,

even on like a, a bad phone connection,

432

:

I can't make out anything, you know, so

yeah, the brain, how it's working in the

433

:

context of this auditory input, right?

434

:

And, and what parts of the brain,

you know, the, the creative aspects

435

:

and the analytical aspects and the

melodic and, and the verbal and how

436

:

all of those things mesh and connect.

437

:

Uh, to make music, right?

438

:

We, we think, we don't think of it

as being as complicated as it is.

439

:

And, and it's not something

that's difficult for me.

440

:

So oftentimes I forget it myself.

441

:

You know, um, I work very fast where

I'll write and record a whole album

442

:

in a week, you know, and release

it and not think anything of it.

443

:

Um, but when you really start to consider

the mechanics of it, or you talk with

444

:

somebody who does struggle with putting

the different pieces together, you know,

445

:

they go, well, I can think of a, I can

think of a melody, but I, I don't know

446

:

what the harmony should be to it, or

I have no sense of rhythm, or I can't

447

:

think of any words for the lyrics, you

know, you go, this is a very complicated

448

:

phenomenon, this is not something that's

very easy, but we humans are so good at

449

:

it, and we're the only animal that does

it, that we're just immersed in it all the

450

:

time, you know, it's really pretty wild.

451

:

Mike: I've always been

like, I'm a huge music fan.

452

:

As I said, I, I bailed on lessons

prematurely and unfortunately I can't

453

:

play anything, but I'm a huge music

fan and I've always been fascinated

454

:

by, you know, what is it that Uh, you

know, the analytical part of me, you

455

:

know, things like maybe even especially

these days with AI, there must be

456

:

some way of cracking the code, right?

457

:

Like, what is it that makes a song

or an album a masterpiece, right?

458

:

And what is it that makes something else

that kind of has similar ingredients,

459

:

the equivalent to Muzak that you might

hear when you're shopping, right?

460

:

Like, like right now, I'm

pretty obsessed with Noah Kahan.

461

:

I don't know.

462

:

I mean.

463

:

My wife makes fun of me because she

sort of compares me with like a, you

464

:

know, a teenage girl or something.

465

:

But I mean, I think it's just, there's

something about his, his, his songwriting

466

:

and his, his melodies, as you say, the

bridges, it's just, it's just captivating.

467

:

I'm pretty obsessed with

that most recent album.

468

:

Yeah.

469

:

Joel: Yeah.

470

:

And I think that, um, this is

where philosophy comes in, right?

471

:

Like, because the fact of the matter is.

472

:

taste in music is subjective.

473

:

So what I consider good music will

be different from you, which will be

474

:

different from everybody on the planet.

475

:

Um, but I think that At its core,

if we were sort of going to pick it

476

:

apart, what I've always said, um, being

somebody who makes music, who writes

477

:

novels, who paints pictures, is that

with any form of art, you're trying

478

:

to deliver something that the audience

wants in a way that they didn't expect.

479

:

Hmm.

480

:

Mike: Um,

481

:

Joel: and, and getting that

balance right is why art is

482

:

so difficult, because if you.

483

:

Deliver what the audience wants in

exactly the way they expect then

484

:

it's boring, you know, it's just

it's lifeless, you know, you go.

485

:

Okay.

486

:

Well, I saw that coming from a mile

away and if you deliver, you know.

487

:

If you give them something that they

don't want, well, then I think that

488

:

that's sort of abstract or avant

garde, you know, you go, what is this?

489

:

Like, I don't, you know, I can't,

there's no chorus to latch on to,

490

:

there's no, um, figures in the

painting to see, uh, the story doesn't

491

:

go anywhere, something like that.

492

:

So, I think that that's the balance is,

is trying to find what people like, what

493

:

people want, and then get them there.

494

:

Give it to them in a in a sneaky way in

a creative way, you know, and so that's

495

:

that's kind of what I was doing when I was

writing my book is, um, when I initially

496

:

went to write my novel, um, I didn't

really think I was gonna write a novel.

497

:

I had just been, um, you know,

interested in mythology and Joseph

498

:

Campbell's hero with a thousand faces

and this idea that Um, the structure

499

:

of stories is uniform across cultures

and the thought occurred to me.

500

:

I wonder how far you can start twisting

some of those tropes or some of those

501

:

steps and still have a story that's

entertaining and cohesive and that people

502

:

enjoy, um, But, but, you know, twist some

of those, those stereotypes a little bit.

503

:

And, um, and I'm really happy

with the way it came out.

504

:

You know, it's, it's, uh, it's one of

those things where I look at it, you

505

:

know, and I go, this story doesn't

really have a main character, right?

506

:

It doesn't really have, um,

But it still kind of comes

507

:

together in a satisfying way.

508

:

So that was something

that was pretty proud of.

509

:

But yeah, that's that's kind of my view

on just any art in general is people

510

:

have some sort of intrinsic desire for

something, you know, whether in music.

511

:

It's a certain a melodic pattern or,

you know, figures that you see in art

512

:

or tropes that we encounter in stories.

513

:

People have a need to to to see those

things fulfilled, but they don't want to.

514

:

They don't want to know it's coming.

515

:

It has to, there has to be some suspense.

516

:

There has to be some, uh,

you know, some conflict.

517

:

Mike: Yeah, that's super interesting.

518

:

It speaks to the importance of the sort

of the surprise of something, right?

519

:

Just sort of being something

unexpected or surprising.

520

:

Um, the other, the other thought that I

just had as you were describing that is

521

:

this idea of, um, in a way, you know,

in the artistic process of just sort

522

:

of, um, presuming from the outset that

That, you know, doesn't really matter

523

:

if anyone actually likes it, right?

524

:

It's sort of because then that that

builds in if you are sort of more fun.

525

:

I mean, of course, there are these other

commercial sorts of considerations,

526

:

but I guess that's kind of the

artist dilemma in a way, right?

527

:

You know, to try to ignore that,

at least at the outset, you know,

528

:

makes me think of Rick Rubin, I

think talks about that, right?

529

:

And this idea about just produce art

is if you're writing in your diary and

530

:

you're Presuming that no one's ever going

to be reading your diary kind of thing,

531

:

which I think is super interesting.

532

:

Also, that speaks to this idea of

expressing yourself in a genuine way

533

:

and the vulnerability that goes along

with that as an artist who's producing,

534

:

you know, basically wearing their

heart on their sleeve in that sense.

535

:

Joel: Yes, yes.

536

:

And we're, we're coming back to,

um, aspects of the generalist again.

537

:

And I think this is why, again, polymaths

and renaissance men tend to be artists is

538

:

because once you've, again, confronted,

um, failure, you know, and you've sort

539

:

of integrated that into part of your

process, um, and you're, and you're

540

:

going about your, your life that certain

way, it becomes less embarrassing.

541

:

You know, I, I remember Music again, music

was kind of the first thing that I did.

542

:

So at one point I was good at music,

but I didn't do anything else.

543

:

And at that point I was

always very nervous.

544

:

I go, Oh man, I don't know

if I should put this out.

545

:

Are people going to like it?

546

:

Are people not going to like it?

547

:

But after you do so many things, um,

yeah, it just kind of comes to the

548

:

point where, um, I refer to myself as

the world's worst marketer because like

549

:

you mentioned, I don't really care.

550

:

I don't really care if people

engage with, with stuff.

551

:

Um, I, cause I'm doing it for

myself, you know, at this point.

552

:

And, um, you know, it's, uh, the podcast,

well, I mentioned at the beginning, right.

553

:

I had to have another podcaster whose

show I had been on, had to tell me that

554

:

my podcast was in the top 5 percent

globally because I, I just don't check.

555

:

Right.

556

:

Um, and that's, and that's sort of.

557

:

An encapsulation of the

podcast ecosystem, right?

558

:

There's a lot of people get into

podcasting, um, and when they don't see

559

:

instant results, they, they drop out.

560

:

And so, you know, 90 percent

of podcasts don't make it 10

561

:

episodes or something like that.

562

:

Um, but from the outset, the reason that

we were doing our podcast was, um, just

563

:

to try to recreate the conversations

that we used to have in philosophy.

564

:

Class, right?

565

:

And so we don't really care.

566

:

We didn't really care if anybody listened.

567

:

It was more just about documenting

these conversations so that

568

:

we had them for the future.

569

:

And if anybody else wanted

to join in, they could.

570

:

And, uh, and that, you know,

paradoxically is what leads to success.

571

:

What leads to success is doing

the things that are important

572

:

to you and that you enjoy.

573

:

Because if you don't have that intrinsic

motivation, Um, you'll never get the

574

:

head of steam that you need to get to

a point where you can be extrinsically

575

:

rewarded for what you're doing.

576

:

So it's paradoxical, but I think

that that is sort of the key is and

577

:

Rick Rubin's a great example, right?

578

:

Because when he got big.

579

:

Um, you know, during the eighties,

that was during a time when, you

580

:

know, huge reverbs and glam metal

were sort of dominating the scene.

581

:

He had this very stripped down sound.

582

:

Um, that was the total opposite of that.

583

:

And what happens is, you know, you

find people who have a desire for that,

584

:

that aesthetic, um, but that weren't

being served by the music industry.

585

:

And so now he, you know, he gains a

following and, and becomes, becomes big.

586

:

So you never know, you never

know what that thing is.

587

:

Uh, but as a creative person, that's

what you're looking for, right?

588

:

You're looking for that, that giving

people what they want in a way that

589

:

they didn't know they wanted it.

590

:

And if, you know, if there's an audience

for it, then it picks up from there.

591

:

Mike: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

592

:

No, I mean, in terms of things like,

you know, Joseph Campbell or Jungian

593

:

types of symbolism, it's interesting

to think about things like beginner's

594

:

mind, you know, and or concepts like the

fool being the precursor to the Savior.

595

:

And I think that part of what

we're kind of indoctrinated in.

596

:

As far as Western societies are concerned

is this notion that right from the very

597

:

beginning when we're little kids and going

through the grade school system it's sort

598

:

of, you know, really looked down upon.

599

:

It's disparaged this kind of idea about

being a novice and not knowing and,

600

:

you know, being at the bottom of the

totem pole and having to build up the

601

:

knowledge and the skills in order to

sort of prove yourself in that sense.

602

:

And you lose.

603

:

I guess that's the other thing why they

say that, you know, all children are

604

:

artists, you know, you just lose that.

605

:

Some, some people just lose that by

virtue of, you know, going through

606

:

the meat grinder of the educational,

you know, you know, system and coming

607

:

out on the other end as a productive

work or what have you, you know,

608

:

Joel: yeah.

609

:

And I think that there's, there's two

sort of aspects to that as, as well.

610

:

Um, One of them that's helped by being

the generalist is that, um, again, the

611

:

more things you engage with, whenever

you go to start a new thing, you have a

612

:

wider base of knowledge to start from.

613

:

So I was listening to one of the

shows that you did, uh, you know,

614

:

before we did this interview.

615

:

Um, I can't remember the guy's

name, but he's an Australian

616

:

guy that was in the military

617

:

Mike: and he's talking

about, you know, yeah,

618

:

Joel: he's talking about breath work,

um, during, you know, during shooting.

619

:

And I go, oh yeah, yeah,

I know how to do that.

620

:

Right.

621

:

Because.

622

:

I have that in my background.

623

:

I have that in my repertoire, right?

624

:

So, and, you know,

breathwork carries through.

625

:

And then that's sort of the other aspect

of it is, um, you know, this integration

626

:

of, um, analytical and creative thought.

627

:

Um, there was a point where, uh, with

music, you know, it started out creative.

628

:

And then it became very analytical.

629

:

So, you know, now I'm think anytime

I hear a song, I'm going, all

630

:

right, what are the drums doing?

631

:

What's the guitar doing?

632

:

You know, what's what's this doing?

633

:

How did they what they do

with EQ and compression to

634

:

make the production this way?

635

:

And then all of a sudden, music starts to

kind of lose its life a little bit, right?

636

:

Um, but then, yeah.

637

:

Getting into breathwork right starting

to do some zen meditation, um, opens

638

:

this awareness that allows you to

sort of transition between, um, a

639

:

holistic and analytical view of things.

640

:

So now all of a sudden I go,

Oh, I can hear the song is one

641

:

thing again and I can sense.

642

:

The emotion behind it and and sort of what

it was intended to be, um, whereas before

643

:

that, you know, a part of this ingrained

practice is just picking it apart and it

644

:

loses its magic when you do that, right?

645

:

You're kind of peeking behind the curtain.

646

:

You're, you know, opening up the

hood, seeing how the thing works.

647

:

Then once you see how the thing

works, it loses a bit of its magic.

648

:

It loses a bit of its appeal.

649

:

Um, and so getting that back is

important for an artist, right?

650

:

Being able to look at something

holistically and, and being able to.

651

:

Um, put the rational mind

away and let the effective.

652

:

Um, you know, affective aspect of,

um, things you're engaging with affect

653

:

you in a way that you, yes, you can

interpret and you can deconstruct

654

:

and you can use in your own things.

655

:

Um, but at the same time, you

know, holistically seeing them as

656

:

somebody who is not an artist, right?

657

:

Who doesn't know how to play music or

doesn't know how to paint or write.

658

:

How do they see it?

659

:

It's really important that you

don't lose that perspective.

660

:

You need to keep that in order to

continue to make good art, I think.

661

:

Mike: Yeah, yeah, I know.

662

:

That's for sure.

663

:

That's cool.

664

:

It makes me think of a really great

book that I read a number of years

665

:

ago called This is Your Brain on Music

by Dan Levitin, who was, uh, I think

666

:

it was initially a sound engineer

or some sort of music producer.

667

:

And then he went on to

become a neuroscientist.

668

:

And he wrote this cool book.

669

:

This is your brain on music.

670

:

It's really interesting.

671

:

And it talks quite a bit

about this type of thing.

672

:

Yeah, I think I read that one.

673

:

Years ago.

674

:

Joel: Yeah.

675

:

Mike: Um, I was just curious

then along those lines.

676

:

Do you think there are certain

cognitive advantages to being a

677

:

musician or an artist in general?

678

:

Joel: Yeah.

679

:

Yeah.

680

:

I think so.

681

:

Um, you know, a musician is, is

interesting because you can, I think

682

:

that it makes you Uh, for me personally,

like I'm better able to locate sound

683

:

sources, like I can identify the Doppler

effect just walking around, you know,

684

:

you can go, okay, all right, so I hear

this thing moving in pitch as I'm moving,

685

:

so I kind of know where the location of

it is, and I can know what hertz it's

686

:

playing at and that sort of thing, so

I think some differentiation is easier.

687

:

Again, I, I struggle with it just

because I think that I have, um, you

688

:

know, uh, an auditory processing issue

because of some of the mixed dominant

689

:

stuff, but I think that by and large,

picking out and being able to, to

690

:

analyze sounds is a little bit easier.

691

:

Um, you know, and I think that, I think

that our being artistic is, is really in

692

:

a lot of ways a problem solving skill.

693

:

Um, for the reason that I

mentioned, right, you're always

694

:

trying to find that balance.

695

:

When you're creating good art,

you know that way of okay.

696

:

Well, what is it that people

are gonna want to hear?

697

:

But you know you write out you go.

698

:

Okay.

699

:

Well, this is too boring, right?

700

:

Just verse chorus verse chorus They're

gonna know exactly what's happening.

701

:

So now I got it.

702

:

I got to mix something up, you know Either

got to throw a bridge in there or I've got

703

:

to change some words to the second chorus

or I've got a you know Do a key shift,

704

:

you know key change in the last course

I've got to do something to make this

705

:

interesting right and I think that that

can follow through to every day Everyday

706

:

things, you know, just just that the

problem solving aspect of it that that's

707

:

really just a creative interpretation

of of your surroundings to some extent.

708

:

Mike: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

709

:

I mean, I think it makes me think of this.

710

:

It's an attractive kind of way of framing

an approach to life in general in terms of

711

:

having it be a creativity kind of project.

712

:

Right.

713

:

So, I mean, people talk about work

and going to work, and I think that

714

:

if you bring a creativity mindset

to work, then I think that is a way

715

:

of having seemingly mundane things

become perhaps more enjoyable, right?

716

:

Um, you know, yeah, yeah,

717

:

Joel: that's and I mean, that's That's

basically the way that I live my

718

:

life is, um, you know, again, I've,

you know, at the beginning of the

719

:

episode, we mentioned a whole bunch of

stuff that I do, you know, and people

720

:

are always asking me, well, how do

you, how do you find time to do it?

721

:

That was

722

:

Mike: going to be my next question.

723

:

And I always

724

:

Joel: tell them, you know, well, yeah, you

know, I sleep eight hours a night, right?

725

:

I, I have a marriage, you know,

I've been married 13 years.

726

:

Um, I've got a happy social life.

727

:

Um, I do all these things,

but it is, it's up.

728

:

It is problem solving.

729

:

It's creative problem solving to some

extent, and it's finding a way to, you

730

:

know, and, and, and here's where it

becomes a perspective thing, right?

731

:

Because it hasn't been

this way my whole life.

732

:

You know, I, I did run into a situation

a few years ago where I was starting

733

:

to feel kind of burned out because

I kept just adding things, right?

734

:

Nothing was going away.

735

:

Um, but You know, I got in, you know, I

got promoted at work and then, you know,

736

:

I got into the government, you know,

the local government gig and then, you

737

:

know, things just kept getting added on.

738

:

I go, Oh, I'm, you know,

this I'm like drowning.

739

:

Um, and that's when I

started, uh, meditation.

740

:

And through that, there was

just a change in mindset, right?

741

:

Because, you know, that's sort of the

founding philosophy of some of a lot of

742

:

the Eastern philosophy is that, um, you

know, Reality, um, beyond the objective

743

:

thing that's out there is primarily

how you subjectively engage with it.

744

:

And so it's when you, when you start

to understand that, then you begin to

745

:

reinterpret stress in a lot of ways.

746

:

And so.

747

:

You know, when I'm thinking, okay,

well, how am I going to do this

748

:

or how am I going to do that?

749

:

It's easy to say, oh, well, I don't

have time and now I'm stressed.

750

:

It's another thing to say, okay,

well, no, this is just a problem

751

:

that requires a creative solution.

752

:

What sort of things can I do differently

in order to accommodate stuff?

753

:

Oh, well, you know what?

754

:

I can, I can meal plan so I can

kind of set out my meals for the

755

:

week and then I don't have to

dedicate any mental energy to it.

756

:

Um, hey, you know, I, I, um,

Don't need this many clothes.

757

:

I'm going to strip it down

to, you know, three color T

758

:

shirts, black, white and gray.

759

:

And then I don't ever

have to think about it.

760

:

Um, and then, you know, just try to

arrange things and, uh, find a way

761

:

to fit them in like a puzzle piece.

762

:

And when that happens, um,

or and then engaging with the

763

:

problems themselves, right?

764

:

Because You know, we have an immediate

feedback environment versus a delayed

765

:

feedback environment and, um, you

know, delayed feedback environment.

766

:

You're putting this effort in and you're

not knowing if it's paying off or not.

767

:

Well, if you sort of reinterpret it

and say, no, I, you know, what I'm

768

:

doing right now is intrinsically

valuable for its own sake.

769

:

So even if I'm at work, right?

770

:

Okay, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a

paycheck and I probably wouldn't show up

771

:

if they weren't gonna give me a paycheck.

772

:

But at the same time, um, works filled

with A lot of interesting people, right?

773

:

Um, there's always

interesting problems to solve.

774

:

And again, there's that key

sort of mindset shift, right?

775

:

Is there stressful,

overwhelming obstacles?

776

:

Or is there interesting problems to solve?

777

:

You know, and it's not as easy

as just talking yourself into it.

778

:

I don't want to present it that way.

779

:

It is, it does take, uh, you

know, it takes work, right?

780

:

It's, it takes.

781

:

Time to accommodate that mindset

shift, but it can be done, right?

782

:

And when it when it is done properly, uh,

you know, my wife kind of gets mad at me

783

:

because we go to bed at night and, um,

you know, I'll say goodnight and I'll take

784

:

one deep breath and then I'm sleeping.

785

:

She goes, how with all of the things

that you do, how are you not just

786

:

staying up at night worried about it?

787

:

And I go because I just

do my best and I have fun.

788

:

And then when I'm done, I

know that I can't do any more.

789

:

I don't want to bother me, you

know, and, uh, and that's, you

790

:

know, that's sort of, um, I think

that's what life should be right.

791

:

It should be.

792

:

You should be doing things that you

want to do, and we can't all do things

793

:

that we want to do all the time.

794

:

So what's the next best thing?

795

:

Well, if you can't beat him, join him.

796

:

If you have to do something

you don't want to do.

797

:

Act like you do want to do it, and if

you fake it till you make it enough,

798

:

eventually you'll find, no, you know what?

799

:

I kind of am genuinely interested

in solving this problem.

800

:

I kind of am genuinely interested in

doing these things, and uh, it, it,

801

:

it's sort of a life changing experience.

802

:

Mike: Definitely.

803

:

Yeah, a hundred percent.

804

:

I mean, and I think, yeah, the,

the reframing and the positive

805

:

growth mindset, it, it, it works

really well for those reasons.

806

:

And I think, yeah, sure.

807

:

There perhaps it, you know, at

a superficial level, it could be

808

:

open to some sort of criticism.

809

:

Like, well, that's a Pollyanna ish view

of the world, but it's not though, because

810

:

I think the real, you know, I love this.

811

:

I love this, you know, segment with

Jocko Willink when he's talking about

812

:

how, you know, one of the, one of the

soldiers that's under his direction

813

:

comes to him with a problem and he's

just replying with good, you know,

814

:

there's a problem, something didn't go

well, good, you know, so what are you,

815

:

what are you going to learn from that?

816

:

So, and flipping the negative right

away and just saying, well, it's good.

817

:

You got to grow through that.

818

:

We all need adversity.

819

:

We have the only way we can grow.

820

:

is by facing up to limitations

voluntarily and overcoming them.

821

:

So I think that, yeah, it's

uncomfortable that, you know,

822

:

that's, that's life, right?

823

:

You grow through discomfort.

824

:

Um, the key though, is the

voluntary, um, the voluntary

825

:

confrontation with the challenge

and whatever's causing discomfort.

826

:

Again, you know, if you're talking

about Joseph Campbell and Yungi and

827

:

archetypal types of things, that's

the hero's journey really, isn't it?

828

:

Joel: Yeah.

829

:

Yeah.

830

:

Yeah.

831

:

I remember, um, there's an Italian

film, I think, and I want to say

832

:

it was called Life is Beautiful.

833

:

Yeah.

834

:

Yeah.

835

:

And it was based around, you know,

World War II and the Holocaust.

836

:

And, um, you know, it was this

Jewish father who him and his

837

:

son got in a concentration camp.

838

:

And, uh, you know, he wants to

protect his son from the harsh

839

:

realities of the situation they're in.

840

:

So he frames the whole thing as a game.

841

:

Right.

842

:

Oh, hey, you know, when the guards

are around, like we're playing hide

843

:

and seek and this sort of thing.

844

:

And, um, obviously it's a, it's a

movie, you know, it's, it's, it's

845

:

a fiction, but it presents again,

that importance of reframing it.

846

:

And Viktor Frankl, right?

847

:

I mean, he lived that to some extent.

848

:

And his, his sort of philosophy

of psychology was that there can

849

:

be growth in the, the struggle.

850

:

Um, and that and I think that's what

growth and struggle looks like, right?

851

:

It's not denying that there's a struggle.

852

:

Um, but what it's saying is at some

point in that struggle, um, you can

853

:

reframe what your idea of struggle is

because it's all subjective, right?

854

:

And, uh, and it's even for

different parts of our lives, right?

855

:

Um, you know, I've always been very

good academically, and it wasn't until

856

:

a couple semesters ago that I got.

857

:

anything less than an A, right?

858

:

So I have a 4.

859

:

0 my whole life and I'm doing my PhD.

860

:

And then, uh, I, I had a professor and,

you know, some of it was on my side, some

861

:

of it was on his side, but I got a B plus.

862

:

And there was just a moment, right?

863

:

Where I was devastated.

864

:

I was just, Oh, my whole life.

865

:

And now I, I tripped up and I screwed up.

866

:

And, um, And that's when I could draw on

all the other aspects of my life, right?

867

:

Mike: And you

868

:

Joel: go, well, well, look at

how work used to be a struggle,

869

:

and now, how well you do.

870

:

And look how your diet used to be

a struggle, and how well you do.

871

:

And how, you know, when you joined

the army, you thought that the whole

872

:

world was coming to an end, because

of how hard that experience was.

873

:

Uh, and then you look back on it and

there were so many other people in

874

:

the armed services that suffered much

more than you did and you go and all

875

:

this is, it's just a B plus on paper.

876

:

Nobody's ever going to care.

877

:

You know, um, I'm not necessarily

even getting the degree

878

:

for any specific purpose.

879

:

I just like learning.

880

:

So, so what does it matter?

881

:

You know, what does it really matter?

882

:

And, uh, and It's one thing to, you know,

I'm not saying grades don't matter, right?

883

:

Obviously, I want to learn from

that experience, and I want to

884

:

continue to, to do better than

I ever have in the past, right?

885

:

And I want to challenge myself,

um, but this idea that, um, falling

886

:

short in that way is, redefines

who I am as a person, right?

887

:

Uh, that, it doesn't

really hold any weight.

888

:

So, I, I think that that's the

importance of it, you know, of, of that.

889

:

That struggle is growth

in the struggle, right?

890

:

You know, in the moment when you're,

when you're, when you're fighting

891

:

with something, finding that

reframing moment and, uh, turning

892

:

it to, turning it to the best

893

:

Mike: for sure.

894

:

Yeah, absolutely.

895

:

That's a.

896

:

Definitely.

897

:

It brings to mind this funny Chris Rock

segment when, you know, he says, you know,

898

:

if you want to get a diamond, you got

to exert a lot of pressure on the coal.

899

:

And if you, if you just hug

a lump of coal, all you're

900

:

going to get is a dirty shirt.

901

:

Yeah.

902

:

Yeah.

903

:

It's great.

904

:

I was curious to know now, yeah, you

mentioned your studies in, in, uh, you

905

:

know, your doctoral student in psychology.

906

:

I was curious to know what particularly,

you know, you're interested

907

:

in or studying or thesis type.

908

:

type, uh, uh, you know,

that you're working towards.

909

:

Maybe you could explain a

little bit of that for us.

910

:

Joel: Yeah.

911

:

So I've had a pretty

convoluted, uh, academic career.

912

:

I, I started out getting a, uh,

an associates in criminal justice,

913

:

um, and then went into the army and

then they, uh, you know, we're like,

914

:

they'd pay for a lot of my school.

915

:

So now I just keep going.

916

:

So I got a bachelor's degree

in interdisciplinary studies.

917

:

And, um, during that time I took.

918

:

Enough upper level classes in education

and psychology that I was able to get

919

:

a master's degree in education off of

that and then I had to, um, you know,

920

:

do a whole, uh, some remedial things and

write some papers and take some tests and

921

:

stuff, but they accepted me into the Ph.

922

:

D.

923

:

Program in psychology.

924

:

Um, and so I'm not sure, you know,

I'm getting towards I'm about 3.

925

:

5 years through the five

years of the program.

926

:

So I'm coming up on the dissertation.

927

:

Um, yeah.

928

:

But I'm not exactly sure what I'm going

to do and that that's not frightening

929

:

to me because, um, I'm somebody who

always has more ideas than time.

930

:

You know, I have friends that I talk about

who talk about having writers block and I

931

:

go, I can't even comprehend that, right?

932

:

I, I, I always have ideas.

933

:

So I've got, you know, a note in

my phone that's full of, I've got

934

:

a separate note for song ideas,

for podcast ideas, for book ideas,

935

:

and for PhD dissertation ideas.

936

:

So I'm not sure, I'm not sure

exactly where I'll go with it.

937

:

Um, one that I am, am interested in is,

um, the idea of, Jamais vu and creativity.

938

:

So Jamais vu kind of the the

opposite of deja vu, right?

939

:

Um, you can take people into the lab and

you can have them Write a word usually

940

:

a familiar word something that's very

familiar like the Um, and between 80, you

941

:

know, 18 and 36 trials somewhere along

those lines, they'll report that, um, the

942

:

word loses its meaning like, Hey, this

is, this doesn't mean anything to me.

943

:

I'm kind of lost now, so what I'm kind

of interested in is if you have, if you

944

:

get people into this mind state, right,

if you get people into this specific

945

:

neural pattern of disassociation.

946

:

if it will heighten

creativity on certain tests.

947

:

So that's, that's kind of what I'm leaning

towards, but I'm not exactly sure if

948

:

that's the direction I'm going to go.

949

:

Mike: Yeah, that's super interesting.

950

:

It kind of reflects back to what we were

talking about a little bit in terms of

951

:

the both brain hemispheres, you know, and

how maybe by kind of just saturating that

952

:

language area, as you're mentioning on

the left side, you know, maybe that just.

953

:

By virtue of just saturating and

somehow suppressing with the repetitive

954

:

exposure, then you're allowing people

more access to the more creative areas

955

:

of the brain on the right side, maybe.

956

:

Joel: Yeah.

957

:

Yeah.

958

:

So I'm interested in that.

959

:

I don't know if I'll, if I'll

be able to pursue it or not,

960

:

because, um, there's really not

too much literature in that area.

961

:

And so for a dissertation, they're

kind of looking for you to.

962

:

Um, it's more exploring a niche

of a well worn, uh, larger

963

:

topic than it is going off and

exploring something completely new.

964

:

So, um, yeah, we'll see.

965

:

I've, I've got plenty of, plenty of

backup ideas to, to go along with it.

966

:

But for me, um, A lot of people ask me,

well, what are you gonna do with it?

967

:

You know?

968

:

And, and the answer is always, uh,

move on to the, to the next thing.

969

:

I, I, uh, like I mentioned

before, I, I enjoy my job.

970

:

Um, I'm lucky enough to, to make more

money than a, a psychology professor

971

:

makes, so that's not really, it

wouldn't be a very good career move.

972

:

Um, but I, I enjoy it.

973

:

You know, psychology is, um.

974

:

You know, we're talking about a

little bit before we start recording,

975

:

you know, psychology in philosophy

and and neuroscience and art like

976

:

these things are all they have

an overlapping quality to him.

977

:

And so it's very difficult right

when I'm doing a philosophy

978

:

podcast or, you know, doing my.

979

:

Ph.

980

:

D.

981

:

studies, you do have to

separate them, right?

982

:

Because psychology is a

social science, you know?

983

:

So you have to follow

the scientific method.

984

:

You can't just come in and say, Well,

rationally, this is what I kind of think.

985

:

Well, if you're a grand

theorist, that's great.

986

:

Maybe people can come along and

sort of prove your concepts.

987

:

Um, otherwise, you know, you really

have to stick to the rules on and

988

:

and philosophy has its own rules,

but, um, they are different, you

989

:

know, and so, so there has to be a

separation, but at the same time,

990

:

um, psychology, so much of it, right?

991

:

Human consciousness is, um, something

that we have trouble objectively

992

:

sort of describing, so by Definition.

993

:

There's a philosophical

element to it, right?

994

:

I always tell people that philosophy

is the bookends of science, right?

995

:

Mike: All

996

:

Joel: science starts.

997

:

All science stems from philosophy and

then all science at the cutting edge.

998

:

dissolves back into philosophy again.

999

:

Mike: And so

:

00:54:21,088 --> 00:54:24,388

Joel: I think human consciousness

and in psychological studies,

:

00:54:24,398 --> 00:54:25,888

that's sort of where that is, right?

:

00:54:25,888 --> 00:54:27,618

It kind of bleeds into that category.

:

00:54:27,618 --> 00:54:30,258

So, so I love it for that reason, right?

:

00:54:30,258 --> 00:54:34,438

I love both, both, um, you know,

disciplines for that reason.

:

00:54:34,908 --> 00:54:39,708

And, uh, I like looking at it from both

different perspectives, uh, while at the

:

00:54:39,708 --> 00:54:45,028

same time, knowing that there has to be

a separation and a distinctive way of

:

00:54:45,028 --> 00:54:48,638

approaching, you know, the same concept.

:

00:54:48,938 --> 00:54:50,718

Depending on what, what

hat you're wearing.

:

00:54:51,498 --> 00:54:51,768

Mike: Yeah.

:

00:54:51,768 --> 00:54:52,648

Yeah, for sure.

:

00:54:52,728 --> 00:54:52,898

No.

:

00:54:52,898 --> 00:54:56,808

And again, it brings me back to mentioning

that theories of everything podcast.

:

00:54:56,808 --> 00:54:58,248

I think you'd really enjoy that.

:

00:54:58,258 --> 00:55:03,308

Cause he really, he interviews all

kinds of people, um, with disparate

:

00:55:03,308 --> 00:55:06,618

sorts of backgrounds, but the

common thread through it is exactly

:

00:55:06,618 --> 00:55:07,798

what you're just talking about.

:

00:55:07,798 --> 00:55:08,028

So.

:

00:55:09,038 --> 00:55:10,058

Joel: I'll definitely check it out.

:

00:55:10,058 --> 00:55:11,768

I like, I like just the name of it.

:

00:55:11,768 --> 00:55:12,758

The name of, it's very cool.

:

00:55:12,938 --> 00:55:13,298

Mike: Totally.

:

00:55:13,298 --> 00:55:14,348

Yeah, no, absolutely.

:

00:55:14,528 --> 00:55:17,708

You know, in terms of like what you

know, all of, all of your various roles

:

00:55:17,708 --> 00:55:22,598

in that, um, I was curious to know,

especially about your description of

:

00:55:22,598 --> 00:55:28,238

how you are also a community leader,

a community, um, organizer, it sounds

:

00:55:28,238 --> 00:55:31,598

like, and 'cause for me it's been

something that I've had aspirations to

:

00:55:31,598 --> 00:55:34,418

get involved with, but it's just one

of those things where, you know, with.

:

00:55:34,873 --> 00:55:38,983

Kids and work and it's just hard to fit

it again, fit it all in and balance it.

:

00:55:38,983 --> 00:55:43,103

But eventually, I mean, I do try and,

you know, participate in volunteering

:

00:55:43,113 --> 00:55:46,203

as much as possible with, uh, you

know, kids, sports and stuff like that.

:

00:55:46,203 --> 00:55:49,613

But, you know, yeah, if you don't

mind explaining for us, uh, tell us

:

00:55:49,613 --> 00:55:53,023

a little bit about your roles as the,

you know, the community organizer

:

00:55:53,023 --> 00:55:57,243

and the, the, um, activity that you

have in supporting your community.

:

00:55:57,828 --> 00:55:58,838

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

:

00:55:58,858 --> 00:56:04,888

Joel: So, um, my, I actually got

into politics through my podcast.

:

00:56:04,898 --> 00:56:10,088

So the, the mayor of our village, um,

happened to listen to my podcast, right?

:

00:56:10,738 --> 00:56:16,488

And, you know, he, we had a, a trustee

who stepped down and so the term had to

:

00:56:16,488 --> 00:56:18,678

be filled and it's an elected position.

:

00:56:19,288 --> 00:56:23,178

Um, but if somebody steps down, the

mayor has the authority to appoint

:

00:56:23,178 --> 00:56:26,398

somebody until the term runs out

and then they must be reelected.

:

00:56:26,398 --> 00:56:27,993

So, um, yeah.

:

00:56:28,333 --> 00:56:30,713

You listen to the podcast and he

met with me and he said, listen, you

:

00:56:30,713 --> 00:56:32,203

know, I've, I've listened to you.

:

00:56:32,203 --> 00:56:35,103

You know, I, you like

these big picture things.

:

00:56:35,103 --> 00:56:40,823

You like looking at how one thing affects

another and how it goes into the future.

:

00:56:41,343 --> 00:56:44,023

And he said, really, that's what

politics is supposed to be about, right?

:

00:56:44,033 --> 00:56:48,483

Is, you know, We're caretakers for the

next generation with a lot of things

:

00:56:49,163 --> 00:56:53,583

and, you know, figuring out ways to

be financially responsible and to make

:

00:56:53,583 --> 00:56:57,603

sure that, you know, infrastructure

is in place and that places are safe

:

00:56:57,603 --> 00:57:01,963

and there's new places to live and

all these things are come about.

:

00:57:01,963 --> 00:57:03,113

That's really what it's about.

:

00:57:03,413 --> 00:57:06,023

So I'm hoping you'll consider doing it.

:

00:57:06,873 --> 00:57:12,733

Um, and, you know, I, there was

part of me that was like, Again,

:

00:57:12,733 --> 00:57:13,893

there's the generalist side, right?

:

00:57:13,893 --> 00:57:15,503

They go, Hey, this is a new thing.

:

00:57:15,533 --> 00:57:16,463

I love new things.

:

00:57:16,463 --> 00:57:17,973

Like I, I definitely want to do this.

:

00:57:18,793 --> 00:57:22,593

Uh, and then there's the other part

of me that was like, Oh man, you know,

:

00:57:22,593 --> 00:57:23,893

I don't know if I have time for this.

:

00:57:23,893 --> 00:57:26,883

And I, you know, I don't really

know if it's, if it's something that

:

00:57:26,883 --> 00:57:30,018

I'll like, um, But it was one year.

:

00:57:30,018 --> 00:57:32,838

So I said, Oh, well, you know, I'll do

it for one year and see how it works out.

:

00:57:33,298 --> 00:57:35,568

And, uh, I've, I've really enjoyed it.

:

00:57:35,608 --> 00:57:41,598

It's, it really has been, um, exactly

what, what he, um, sort of summed it

:

00:57:41,598 --> 00:57:46,268

up to be, which is, you know, you,

you go and as, as a village trustee,

:

00:57:46,348 --> 00:57:50,798

um, you know, it's kind of, I sort

of oversee the whole village, right?

:

00:57:50,798 --> 00:57:53,628

There's, there's four people

on the, on the board of

:

00:57:53,848 --> 00:57:55,368

trustees, as well as the mayor.

:

00:57:56,038 --> 00:58:00,123

And, um, You know, by majority

vote, we decide on policies

:

00:58:00,133 --> 00:58:01,163

for the, for the village.

:

00:58:01,613 --> 00:58:05,763

And, um, and then on top of that, each

trustee has different committees that

:

00:58:05,763 --> 00:58:07,443

they're on that oversee certain aspects.

:

00:58:07,443 --> 00:58:11,013

So like I mentioned at the

beginning, I, um, oversee the fire

:

00:58:11,013 --> 00:58:14,823

department, the police department,

the parks and recreation.

:

00:58:15,703 --> 00:58:20,733

Um, so, you know, these, and, uh,

part of that's like the tree board,

:

00:58:20,933 --> 00:58:22,813

you know, and, and that's, that's.

:

00:58:23,248 --> 00:58:24,228

A good example, right?

:

00:58:24,258 --> 00:58:28,768

Because you think, Oh, a tree board,

like, Oh, well, is it really important?

:

00:58:29,568 --> 00:58:30,748

Well, yeah, it kind of is, right?

:

00:58:30,748 --> 00:58:33,488

Because, you know, all the trees

in the village were planted

:

00:58:33,758 --> 00:58:35,808

at the same time in the 60s.

:

00:58:35,808 --> 00:58:38,298

And now they're all dying

at the same time, right?

:

00:58:38,848 --> 00:58:40,238

What happens when you don't have trees?

:

00:58:40,238 --> 00:58:45,253

Well, property values go down and air

conditioning prices go up, you know,

:

00:58:45,273 --> 00:58:47,343

up energy, you know, prices go up.

:

00:58:47,343 --> 00:58:52,083

And there's all, there's this sort

of, uh, it's a whole cascading effect

:

00:58:52,093 --> 00:58:54,713

of just not having enough trees.

:

00:58:54,733 --> 00:58:59,773

And so, you know, uh, you know, I've been

working with, uh, another guy, a medical

:

00:58:59,773 --> 00:59:03,863

doctor in town, who's, uh, the, the head

of the chair of the, the tree board,

:

00:59:04,393 --> 00:59:07,463

you know, looking at ways to, how can

we plant diverse species and, and make

:

00:59:07,463 --> 00:59:09,453

it sort of like a walking arboretum and.

:

00:59:10,008 --> 00:59:13,898

You know, make sure that we're cutting

down the unhealthy trees, uh, but not

:

00:59:13,898 --> 00:59:17,268

losing the canopy and, and providing,

you know, all this shade and stuff.

:

00:59:17,728 --> 00:59:20,588

So it becomes, you know, you guys,

it's something that a lay person

:

00:59:20,588 --> 00:59:22,288

goes, well, what, what's the big deal?

:

00:59:22,828 --> 00:59:25,818

Uh, but you get into it and Nelson,

you start to see the value in it.

:

00:59:26,338 --> 00:59:31,178

Um, and it, it becomes a very satisfying

way of giving back to the community,

:

00:59:31,678 --> 00:59:35,948

um, and, and sort of increasing,

um, the, the value of the village.

:

00:59:35,948 --> 00:59:43,148

So, uh, Yeah, I think and and even more

importantly, um, you know, I think that

:

00:59:43,238 --> 00:59:50,598

something that most people will report is

that volunteer work, uh, is really, um,

:

00:59:52,628 --> 00:59:55,268

it helps you out more than

it helps out anybody else.

:

00:59:55,288 --> 00:59:56,228

You know, it feels good.

:

00:59:56,238 --> 00:59:59,118

It feels good to do things for people

because that's another thing people

:

00:59:59,118 --> 01:00:05,538

will say is, well, you know, uh, Man,

like I, you'd have to pay me to do that.

:

01:00:05,538 --> 01:00:08,698

I wouldn't, I wouldn't do all that

work if I wasn't getting paid and you

:

01:00:08,698 --> 01:00:11,318

go again, that's not what it's about.

:

01:00:11,538 --> 01:00:15,208

I think that here in, you know,

western society, everything is,

:

01:00:15,628 --> 01:00:19,068

everything is monetized, you

know, and especially our time.

:

01:00:19,858 --> 01:00:23,178

And, uh, you know, there's,

I can understand that.

:

01:00:23,178 --> 01:00:26,198

I think that you should value your

time more than anything else, right?

:

01:00:26,198 --> 01:00:28,548

It's your number one limited resource.

:

01:00:29,068 --> 01:00:29,508

Um, yeah.

:

01:00:30,303 --> 01:00:36,183

But putting a dollar value on it versus,

um, you know, sort of objectively, you

:

01:00:36,183 --> 01:00:40,293

know, just going and trying it out and

seeing how it helps you, how it helps the

:

01:00:40,303 --> 01:00:44,393

people around you, um, how it makes you

feel and what kind of impact you have.

:

01:00:44,763 --> 01:00:47,713

Uh, it's not really giving it a

fair shake if you just go, ah, well.

:

01:00:47,988 --> 01:00:50,548

You know, I could be

making money, you know?

:

01:00:51,928 --> 01:00:53,838

Mike: Yeah, that makes

perfect sense, right?

:

01:00:53,838 --> 01:00:57,628

I mean, I think probably it probably

encourages a healthy relationship

:

01:00:57,638 --> 01:00:59,078

with time and money too, right?

:

01:00:59,108 --> 01:01:03,868

Because there is this idea of more of

the intangible value that you probably

:

01:01:03,868 --> 01:01:08,058

would get by networking, you know, and

being able to just spend time with like

:

01:01:08,058 --> 01:01:09,958

minded people who are also volunteering.

:

01:01:10,298 --> 01:01:12,598

And so there's this mutual

recognition of the fact that

:

01:01:12,608 --> 01:01:16,218

you're committed to a goal in the

interest of improving the community.

:

01:01:16,593 --> 01:01:18,223

And you're volunteering your time for it.

:

01:01:18,223 --> 01:01:22,813

And so it just provides you the whole

group of, you know, politicians that

:

01:01:22,813 --> 01:01:26,093

are working together with that network

to say, and this is what really

:

01:01:26,103 --> 01:01:27,643

builds foundations of communities.

:

01:01:27,643 --> 01:01:30,643

It must be, you know, and, but,

but as far as if there's to

:

01:01:30,643 --> 01:01:32,123

be some sort of personal gain.

:

01:01:32,578 --> 01:01:35,398

That may be as a byproduct

of those efforts, right?

:

01:01:35,428 --> 01:01:37,768

Maybe the networking piece

of it could be that, right?

:

01:01:37,768 --> 01:01:40,768

You could say, well, oh, well, you

know, we have these relationships.

:

01:01:40,768 --> 01:01:44,508

And so then, you know, the networking,

and I guess that's, you know, just

:

01:01:44,508 --> 01:01:47,518

occurred to me is that perhaps that

opens the door for nepotism and

:

01:01:47,518 --> 01:01:48,948

corruption to a certain extent.

:

01:01:48,958 --> 01:01:52,878

So if you have, you know, guarding against

that, perhaps that's where there's some

:

01:01:52,898 --> 01:01:58,193

sort of, um, You know, gap where cynicism

might be able to sort of leak into

:

01:01:58,203 --> 01:02:00,183

the into the whole discussion, right?

:

01:02:00,193 --> 01:02:02,723

But I think just to have the

experience, the political

:

01:02:02,723 --> 01:02:07,803

experience by itself must be a very

interesting kind of journey for you.

:

01:02:08,543 --> 01:02:08,913

Joel: Yeah.

:

01:02:09,423 --> 01:02:09,673

Yeah.

:

01:02:09,673 --> 01:02:13,723

And, and, you know, um, there's

so many ways to get involved,

:

01:02:13,823 --> 01:02:16,313

uh, that, that are easy to do.

:

01:02:16,323 --> 01:02:17,423

You can just walk into them.

:

01:02:17,893 --> 01:02:20,383

Um, and so being a trustee

is, is not that right.

:

01:02:20,403 --> 01:02:24,173

Like, I got lucky because I,

I got appointed, but, um, then

:

01:02:24,173 --> 01:02:25,333

I'm running for reelection.

:

01:02:25,413 --> 01:02:25,763

Right.

:

01:02:25,853 --> 01:02:31,338

And so, um, You know, I'm worried

about that because I'm an independent

:

01:02:31,438 --> 01:02:32,708

or I'm registered independent.

:

01:02:33,748 --> 01:02:38,658

But I sought cross nomination, you

know, so I went to the Republican caucus

:

01:02:38,658 --> 01:02:43,038

and I said, Hey, you know, I've been

doing the job for a year and, you know,

:

01:02:43,038 --> 01:02:45,168

I've, I've been really given it my all.

:

01:02:45,598 --> 01:02:46,838

I'm hoping you'll nominate me.

:

01:02:46,838 --> 01:02:50,178

And I did the same thing at the

democratic one and, and they both

:

01:02:50,328 --> 01:02:51,628

nominated me for the position.

:

01:02:51,658 --> 01:02:51,948

Right.

:

01:02:51,958 --> 01:02:54,048

So, and, and again, that's.

:

01:02:54,283 --> 01:02:56,023

That's what politics is

supposed to be, right?

:

01:02:56,043 --> 01:03:00,413

Is, is going, okay, hey, I see

this guy around town, uh, you

:

01:03:00,413 --> 01:03:04,463

know, painting fences, planting

trees, um, doing things that make a

:

01:03:04,463 --> 01:03:05,893

difference in the community, right?

:

01:03:06,323 --> 01:03:09,653

Um, is that board meetings, you

know, they're, they're passing

:

01:03:09,653 --> 01:03:12,963

laws or doing stuff that, that we

see as valuable to the community.

:

01:03:13,413 --> 01:03:16,073

Um, What does the political

affiliation matter?

:

01:03:16,083 --> 01:03:17,033

It really doesn't, right?

:

01:03:17,053 --> 01:03:20,653

As long as they're doing,

doing the job right, but it's

:

01:03:20,653 --> 01:03:21,853

an elected position, right?

:

01:03:21,853 --> 01:03:24,273

So if you're, if you're not

doing something right, you,

:

01:03:24,343 --> 01:03:25,663

you could get voted out.

:

01:03:26,193 --> 01:03:29,863

Um, so there's, you know, yeah,

there's, and you know, it's different

:

01:03:29,863 --> 01:03:33,913

in a small town, but, um, there's,

there's mechanisms to keep things

:

01:03:34,003 --> 01:03:36,023

fair and honest and, um, yeah.

:

01:03:36,528 --> 01:03:41,018

And you don't have to be an elected person

to have just as big of an impact, right?

:

01:03:41,018 --> 01:03:45,528

You know, any, any, you can go

anywhere, anywhere and volunteer and,

:

01:03:45,528 --> 01:03:49,278

uh, you know, be with people who are

like minded and want to make, want

:

01:03:49,278 --> 01:03:51,518

to make the village a better place.

:

01:03:51,518 --> 01:03:54,468

And by extension, right, if you make

your little corner of the world a

:

01:03:54,468 --> 01:03:57,578

better place, you're making the whole

world a better place to some extent.

:

01:03:57,578 --> 01:03:57,808

So.

:

01:03:58,758 --> 01:03:59,568

Mike: Yeah, definitely.

:

01:03:59,578 --> 01:04:00,198

No, for sure.

:

01:04:00,198 --> 01:04:02,898

I mean, it makes me think of what

you described there is, you know,

:

01:04:02,898 --> 01:04:05,578

you're fortunate in terms of

being able to fall asleep pretty

:

01:04:05,578 --> 01:04:07,458

much right away after a busy day.

:

01:04:07,458 --> 01:04:12,718

But I think, you know, it made me think

of the idea that, you know, to starting

:

01:04:12,718 --> 01:04:17,128

off the day with an idea of focusing in on

the day, sort of aiming, aiming in a sense

:

01:04:17,128 --> 01:04:20,408

that what you might want to accomplish,

you know, aiming at the highest good,

:

01:04:21,138 --> 01:04:25,233

focusing in on the day, and perhaps the

highest good might be, you know, you know,

:

01:04:25,463 --> 01:04:28,933

Not thinking of yourself so much, but

thinking of others and thinking of, you

:

01:04:28,933 --> 01:04:33,043

know, your household and then the broader

community and then finishing the day and

:

01:04:33,043 --> 01:04:36,753

just saying to yourself, Well, I did my

best to try and, you know, take care of

:

01:04:36,753 --> 01:04:40,123

those people that are close to me and

take care of my community, take care of

:

01:04:40,123 --> 01:04:44,043

myself to the extent that I need to in

order to maintain that from day to day.

:

01:04:44,403 --> 01:04:47,523

And that probably helps, you

know, with restful sleep at night.

:

01:04:48,993 --> 01:04:49,343

Yeah,

:

01:04:49,453 --> 01:04:53,393

Joel: yeah, you know, again, it comes

back to, um, just knowing that you

:

01:04:53,393 --> 01:04:58,183

were doing your best, you know, and,

and whatever it is, uh, and balancing

:

01:04:58,183 --> 01:05:00,073

that with some self compassion, right?

:

01:05:00,733 --> 01:05:05,293

And so, if you know that you did the best

that you could, um, and you know what, if

:

01:05:05,293 --> 01:05:09,043

you screwed up, you have another shot at

it tomorrow, or, um, you know, you learned

:

01:05:09,043 --> 01:05:11,593

a lesson, uh, whatever the case may be.

:

01:05:12,103 --> 01:05:16,063

Then, uh, then stress and pressure really

don't have the opportunity to creep in,

:

01:05:16,133 --> 01:05:19,573

you know, you, you can kind of keep,

keep things level headed and keep a good

:

01:05:19,573 --> 01:05:22,413

perspective on, um, how things are going.

:

01:05:23,393 --> 01:05:23,803

Mike: Yeah, I know.

:

01:05:23,803 --> 01:05:24,433

Definitely.

:

01:05:24,923 --> 01:05:27,193

Um, I'm interested to hear

more about the podcast.

:

01:05:27,193 --> 01:05:31,603

It sounds really interesting in terms of

the, the theme and how it got started, but

:

01:05:31,623 --> 01:05:35,273

maybe if you don't mind just explaining

a little bit about how did it get started

:

01:05:35,273 --> 01:05:39,443

and expanding on that and what's been what

you guys have been talking about lately.

:

01:05:40,043 --> 01:05:40,373

Joel: Sure.

:

01:05:40,853 --> 01:05:41,163

Yeah.

:

01:05:41,163 --> 01:05:47,083

So, um, We started six years ago,

and, uh, it was again just sort

:

01:05:47,083 --> 01:05:51,813

of born out of a generalist, uh,

position to want to do a new thing.

:

01:05:52,153 --> 01:05:56,333

Um, I'd been making a lot of music and

All of a sudden, I looked around and I

:

01:05:56,333 --> 01:05:58,793

go, you know, I have a recording studio.

:

01:05:59,513 --> 01:06:03,243

I could make a podcast and I go,

well, what would it be about?

:

01:06:04,023 --> 01:06:10,083

And uh, I go, well, you know, I, I

love philosophy because my whole life

:

01:06:10,083 --> 01:06:14,993

I've been somebody who's believed

that everything is philosophical and

:

01:06:14,993 --> 01:06:20,823

everybody is a philosopher, you know,

and I thought back to my very first.

:

01:06:21,378 --> 01:06:26,428

Philosophy class in community college

with my professor who, uh, you

:

01:06:26,428 --> 01:06:28,148

know, really him and him and my mom.

:

01:06:28,148 --> 01:06:34,308

I sort of credit with getting me

the love of learning that I have.

:

01:06:34,328 --> 01:06:38,418

You know, my mom was always the type of

person where school wasn't just something

:

01:06:38,418 --> 01:06:41,718

you did from 7 to 3 after school.

:

01:06:41,718 --> 01:06:43,298

You know, she'd take us to the museum.

:

01:06:43,958 --> 01:06:45,868

You know, and she'd go, look

at these dinosaur bones.

:

01:06:45,868 --> 01:06:46,818

Aren't these things crazy?

:

01:06:46,848 --> 01:06:49,268

Can you imagine when this thing

was alive, what it would look like?

:

01:06:49,878 --> 01:06:53,468

And, uh, pretty soon you're running around

the museum reading every single placard

:

01:06:53,468 --> 01:06:55,078

because it's so interesting, you know?

:

01:06:55,338 --> 01:06:59,008

So anywhere we went, my mom was

always making things educational in

:

01:06:59,008 --> 01:07:00,478

a sneaky way that you didn't know.

:

01:07:00,928 --> 01:07:03,158

And so, uh, that kind of carried with me.

:

01:07:04,198 --> 01:07:09,308

And my first philosophy professor the

same way, you know, um, he didn't he

:

01:07:09,308 --> 01:07:11,798

didn't, uh, give us textbooks to read.

:

01:07:11,798 --> 01:07:14,128

He gave us actual books, right metaphors.

:

01:07:14,128 --> 01:07:19,498

We live by and and, uh, you know,

other other works of philosophy and

:

01:07:19,498 --> 01:07:23,518

then, you know, we come into class

and, uh, Rather than there being a

:

01:07:23,518 --> 01:07:28,018

lecture or a lesson plan of any kind,

you just ask us about the books, right?

:

01:07:28,028 --> 01:07:31,398

There'd be these conversations that

would start up that were very organic

:

01:07:31,398 --> 01:07:35,018

and, and, and interesting, and, um,

you know, would go back and forth.

:

01:07:35,018 --> 01:07:41,698

And so 10 years after I left community

college, I'm sitting in this music

:

01:07:41,698 --> 01:07:43,688

studio going, Oh, I could do a podcast.

:

01:07:43,688 --> 01:07:46,638

And I go, I should do

a philosophy podcast.

:

01:07:47,403 --> 01:07:48,483

I wonder what Norm's up to.

:

01:07:49,083 --> 01:07:52,023

So after 10 years of not talking,

I just got ahold of him and said,

:

01:07:52,023 --> 01:07:54,343

hey, would you be interested

in doing a philosophy podcast?

:

01:07:54,353 --> 01:07:55,703

And he said, yeah, sure.

:

01:07:56,423 --> 01:07:59,463

And so it started, we thought, well,

we're just, we're gonna, we'll just do

:

01:07:59,493 --> 01:08:05,393

10 episodes, just the biggest topics,

uh, in philosophy, God, time, you

:

01:08:05,393 --> 01:08:07,863

know, free will, these sorts of things.

:

01:08:08,373 --> 01:08:10,143

And we got to the end of the 10 episodes.

:

01:08:10,458 --> 01:08:14,158

And we said, there's way too

much other stuff to talk about.

:

01:08:14,158 --> 01:08:15,638

We can't possibly stop here.

:

01:08:16,077 --> 01:08:18,768

And so we've continued on

for the past six years.

:

01:08:19,188 --> 01:08:22,098

We just did our 200th episode

a little while ago, and we've

:

01:08:22,108 --> 01:08:23,337

covered all kinds of stuff, right?

:

01:08:23,337 --> 01:08:29,903

We've continued to probe, um, some

of those very, uh, deep Big topics

:

01:08:29,903 --> 01:08:34,113

that sort of pervade philosophy, but

we've also done down to earth things.

:

01:08:34,443 --> 01:08:36,673

We did Disney princesses one episode.

:

01:08:36,673 --> 01:08:41,462

My wife came on as the guest and, um,

we've done entertainment franchise

:

01:08:41,502 --> 01:08:46,193

reboots and we've done all kinds of

things right to just demonstrate that,

:

01:08:46,843 --> 01:08:51,252

um, Any topic is philosophical and

everybody's a philosopher, uh, and,

:

01:08:51,252 --> 01:08:54,962

and, you know, lots of, and I think

that the more people engage in that

:

01:08:54,962 --> 01:08:59,513

mindset, the healthier you are and the

better appreciation you have for life

:

01:08:59,553 --> 01:09:01,173

and everybody has that topic, right?

:

01:09:01,183 --> 01:09:06,212

Everybody has something that they're

so passionate about where, you know, if

:

01:09:06,212 --> 01:09:09,153

you're a lay person, you'll look at it

and go, okay, well, this is just that.

:

01:09:09,353 --> 01:09:11,348

And somebody will say,

no, no, no, no, no, no.

:

01:09:11,898 --> 01:09:16,848

Let me explain like how nuanced this

is and how much there is that goes into

:

01:09:16,848 --> 01:09:22,898

this and, and it brings any concept to

life and it makes everything interesting.

:

01:09:23,428 --> 01:09:26,368

And so that's what we've, uh, that's

what we've been trying to do for

:

01:09:26,368 --> 01:09:31,068

the past six years is, uh, again,

looking at just one concept each week

:

01:09:31,408 --> 01:09:33,058

and, uh, really picking it apart.

:

01:09:33,718 --> 01:09:38,818

And, uh, you know, what you find is that

the, the title of the episode or the title

:

01:09:38,818 --> 01:09:44,577

of the podcast is, um, is pretty, pretty

spot on from nowhere to nothing, right?

:

01:09:44,577 --> 01:09:48,408

You, we look at it and it's,

it's not that we don't.

:

01:09:48,913 --> 01:09:49,832

Get anywhere.

:

01:09:50,303 --> 01:09:55,133

But what you find is that coming to

concrete or solid answers is so much

:

01:09:55,133 --> 01:09:59,743

harder than you could possibly imagine

that, you know, even reviewing the history

:

01:09:59,743 --> 01:10:03,613

and the literature and then, you know,

rationally debating it among yourselves

:

01:10:03,613 --> 01:10:05,183

and sort of asking these questions.

:

01:10:06,128 --> 01:10:09,798

At the end of every episode,

we say, man, you know, there's

:

01:10:09,798 --> 01:10:11,158

just, there's more to talk about.

:

01:10:11,168 --> 01:10:12,888

You could always continue to go on.

:

01:10:12,898 --> 01:10:14,348

The conversation could never end.

:

01:10:15,398 --> 01:10:15,608

Mike: Yeah.

:

01:10:15,608 --> 01:10:15,858

Yeah.

:

01:10:15,858 --> 01:10:16,558

No, totally.

:

01:10:16,577 --> 01:10:19,388

I mean, and even just like, you

know, I'm getting started with this

:

01:10:19,388 --> 01:10:22,048

and it's just been so much fun just

for that very reason, you know, and

:

01:10:22,048 --> 01:10:26,028

just meeting people, having open

conversations and just learning,

:

01:10:26,028 --> 01:10:29,868

enriching knowledge, you know, in, in

both directions and disseminating that.

:

01:10:29,868 --> 01:10:33,868

I think it's so, it's such a, I'm

really optimistic about the future

:

01:10:33,868 --> 01:10:35,678

of this type of media in general.

:

01:10:36,148 --> 01:10:39,808

And I was curious how, you know, with

your experience that way over the past

:

01:10:39,808 --> 01:10:45,008

six years and seeing the landscape out

in front of us in terms of the podcasting

:

01:10:45,018 --> 01:10:49,598

world and long form conversations,

how do you see the role of these

:

01:10:49,608 --> 01:10:54,488

kinds of long form conversations in,

you know, this era of short attention

:

01:10:54,488 --> 01:10:59,858

spans and kind of clickbait, uh,

TikTok kinds of, um, short videos?

:

01:11:01,653 --> 01:11:02,193

Joel: Yeah, I think

:

01:11:02,193 --> 01:11:02,343

Mike: that,

:

01:11:02,343 --> 01:11:09,893

Joel: um, you know, it's, it's a sort

of sad, um, but I think that at the

:

01:11:09,893 --> 01:11:14,353

same time it's, it's, it's only sad if,

if you view it from one perspective.

:

01:11:14,363 --> 01:11:16,503

From the other perspective, I

think that it's very hopeful.

:

01:11:17,083 --> 01:11:21,503

Um, but I think that part of the

reason podcasts are so successful

:

01:11:21,983 --> 01:11:25,998

is that A lot of people don't have

these kind of conversations in

:

01:11:25,998 --> 01:11:27,488

their regular everyday life anymore.

:

01:11:27,498 --> 01:11:34,008

You know, um, I was fortunate enough to

grow up just before the technological era.

:

01:11:34,018 --> 01:11:38,478

So I remember, um, coming of age and,

and, uh, you know, staying out till

:

01:11:38,478 --> 01:11:42,188

two or three in the morning with my

friends, you know, staring up at the

:

01:11:42,188 --> 01:11:47,268

sky on the hoods of our cars talking

about, you know, Hey man, what do

:

01:11:47,308 --> 01:11:48,958

you think came before the universe?

:

01:11:48,958 --> 01:11:49,268

Right?

:

01:11:49,768 --> 01:11:57,363

Um, And, and nowadays, it just seems,

um, it seems crazy to imagine having that

:

01:11:57,363 --> 01:12:01,543

kind of time on your hands as a teenager

or as an adult or as a kid, right?

:

01:12:01,553 --> 01:12:07,413

All of us, our schedules have become

so saturated, um, and I think largely

:

01:12:07,423 --> 01:12:09,803

through technological means, right?

:

01:12:09,803 --> 01:12:10,723

Some of it's real.

:

01:12:10,733 --> 01:12:14,403

Some of it is a real saturation,

but some of it is just this need to

:

01:12:14,403 --> 01:12:18,033

fill up every second of time with,

with the screen time, you know?

:

01:12:18,033 --> 01:12:21,103

Oh, hey, I've got 30 seconds

before, you know, yeah.

:

01:12:21,523 --> 01:12:26,153

Before work, I might as well pull out my

phone and see what's going on on social

:

01:12:26,153 --> 01:12:31,373

media or on the news or whatever, um,

that that sort of negative space, you

:

01:12:31,373 --> 01:12:37,338

know, that that blank canvas, um, Not

only is that good just for your, your

:

01:12:37,338 --> 01:12:41,538

own thinking, um, but when you combine

it with your social relationships,

:

01:12:41,538 --> 01:12:45,948

right, having that, that empty space

and having the ability to, to engage

:

01:12:45,948 --> 01:12:50,408

with somebody else in that space and,

and how that deepens a relationship.

:

01:12:50,738 --> 01:12:53,488

It's very important, and I think that

it's missing, and I think that that,

:

01:12:53,528 --> 01:12:56,718

that podcasts are now where people

are sort of fulfilling that, right?

:

01:12:56,718 --> 01:13:02,048

They hear you and me having a conversation

and they go, man, this is so cool, you

:

01:13:02,048 --> 01:13:04,118

know, it scratches that itch, right?

:

01:13:04,518 --> 01:13:05,148

And so.

:

01:13:05,468 --> 01:13:09,438

My hope, right, would, would

be to see people having these

:

01:13:09,438 --> 01:13:10,908

conversations in everyday life.

:

01:13:11,418 --> 01:13:14,318

Um, and, and everybody right now

is going, I don't have an hour

:

01:13:14,318 --> 01:13:15,678

to sit down and talk to somebody.

:

01:13:16,018 --> 01:13:17,827

Well, let me tell you, if I have

an hour to sit down and talk to

:

01:13:17,838 --> 01:13:20,478

somebody, you have an hour to sit

down and talk to somebody, right?

:

01:13:20,488 --> 01:13:20,978

For sure, it's inspiring.

:

01:13:22,098 --> 01:13:22,368

Yeah.

:

01:13:22,368 --> 01:13:23,028

And it's important.

:

01:13:23,058 --> 01:13:24,198

It's very important, right?

:

01:13:24,198 --> 01:13:26,108

This is what, this is what energizes us.

:

01:13:26,108 --> 01:13:28,688

And this was what helps us grow, right?

:

01:13:28,698 --> 01:13:32,238

Is, is hearing somebody's different

perspective and incorporating

:

01:13:32,238 --> 01:13:35,008

what they're having to say

into your own knowledge base.

:

01:13:35,028 --> 01:13:35,308

Right.

:

01:13:35,798 --> 01:13:40,028

And so I think that going forward,

podcasts will continue to be successful.

:

01:13:40,028 --> 01:13:43,198

And, and, you know, as a matter of fact,

I was reading some analytics that show

:

01:13:43,198 --> 01:13:45,428

that they're continuing to grow, right?

:

01:13:45,478 --> 01:13:46,368

They're continuing to grow.

:

01:13:47,168 --> 01:13:47,808

Um, and I.

:

01:13:48,193 --> 01:13:51,493

And I think that, you know, there's,

there's different niches, right?

:

01:13:51,493 --> 01:13:56,303

Some, some are just, um, selling

things or, or trying to promote,

:

01:13:56,333 --> 01:13:57,833

you know, uh, business ventures.

:

01:13:58,633 --> 01:14:02,933

Um, and I think there's always the danger

of ending up in an echo chamber, right?

:

01:14:02,952 --> 01:14:08,933

You know, going down, uh, a far right

or a far left or wherever, um, stream

:

01:14:08,933 --> 01:14:12,202

and just having a, a re something

that reinforces your own thinking.

:

01:14:12,633 --> 01:14:17,313

But I think by and large, right,

it's people who want to have.

:

01:14:17,743 --> 01:14:21,183

Deep conversations with other people,

and I think that the audience by and

:

01:14:21,183 --> 01:14:26,073

large is people who want to hear deep

conversations with other people, and then

:

01:14:26,073 --> 01:14:29,663

they want to take it and and chew on it

on their own, and I think that that's a

:

01:14:29,663 --> 01:14:34,303

very, very healthy and inspiring thing,

and I think that, um, podcasts will be

:

01:14:34,303 --> 01:14:38,713

good for that, even if it doesn't reemerge

in the social milieu at any time, but.

:

01:14:39,493 --> 01:14:40,603

Mike: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

:

01:14:40,963 --> 01:14:42,853

Well, I love how it's

open source, too, right?

:

01:14:42,853 --> 01:14:43,943

I mean, it's accessible.

:

01:14:43,943 --> 01:14:45,683

The cost of production is way down.

:

01:14:45,683 --> 01:14:49,083

I mean, you'd, you'd have a lot of

knowledge and experience about that

:

01:14:49,083 --> 01:14:52,543

in terms of what you know about music

production and your experience there.

:

01:14:52,543 --> 01:14:57,383

But just the Gutenberg revolution of

YouTube and these various other podcasting

:

01:14:57,452 --> 01:15:02,143

platforms and allowing people to just

have the reach for very low cost, right?

:

01:15:02,143 --> 01:15:04,443

Not only cost of production,

but cost of production.

:

01:15:04,723 --> 01:15:08,803

Um, consuming, you know, is basically

zero pretty much on both sides.

:

01:15:08,823 --> 01:15:09,233

So it is.

:

01:15:09,243 --> 01:15:10,423

It's super interesting that way.

:

01:15:10,423 --> 01:15:14,993

And it's kind of a, kind of an, it

provides an optimistic kind of perspective

:

01:15:15,013 --> 01:15:20,283

on people connecting and people

learning from one another and, uh, yeah,

:

01:15:20,283 --> 01:15:21,743

like I know it's the way I kind of.

:

01:15:21,908 --> 01:15:27,638

think about it often, it's an evolution

of, you know, talk radio or call in,

:

01:15:27,658 --> 01:15:30,818

you know, shows that you'd kind of have,

you know, it would be fun to listen

:

01:15:30,818 --> 01:15:33,758

to while you're driving, you know, and

I think it probably also fills a need

:

01:15:33,758 --> 01:15:36,128

for folks that are lonely these days.

:

01:15:36,128 --> 01:15:40,338

I mean, there's an epidemic of loneliness

and, you know, I think these kinds

:

01:15:40,338 --> 01:15:46,058

of, um, media outlets and, and, and

platforms really help people feel as

:

01:15:46,058 --> 01:15:49,693

though they're not only learning, but

You know, spending time with people that

:

01:15:49,713 --> 01:15:51,043

they're listening to in a way, right?

:

01:15:51,543 --> 01:15:52,803

Joel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

:

01:15:52,863 --> 01:15:56,533

And, um, you know, as an

artist, like, it's a good point.

:

01:15:56,533 --> 01:15:58,033

The production is aspect of, right?

:

01:15:58,043 --> 01:16:00,963

Because I remember when I

started music, um, I could make

:

01:16:00,963 --> 01:16:02,123

a ton of money at music, right?

:

01:16:02,123 --> 01:16:07,023

Because people had to buy my albums, you

know, and I could sell an album for 10

:

01:16:07,023 --> 01:16:09,033

and 7 of it would be my money, right?

:

01:16:09,593 --> 01:16:12,563

Now, if I release an album,

nobody buys it, right?

:

01:16:12,563 --> 01:16:15,673

They just stream it and I make

point point one cent or whatever.

:

01:16:15,673 --> 01:16:18,783

So I don't make any money on

music and, and a lot of artists.

:

01:16:19,373 --> 01:16:21,452

Complain about that rightfully so right.

:

01:16:21,452 --> 01:16:26,173

If you're trying to make a living being an

artist, then it's a very difficult thing.

:

01:16:26,223 --> 01:16:32,743

But for somebody like me who

cares more about the doing aspect

:

01:16:32,743 --> 01:16:37,483

of it and getting it in front of

people more so than making money.

:

01:16:38,653 --> 01:16:39,633

I think it's great, right?

:

01:16:39,633 --> 01:16:42,723

I think it's great that everybody can

can get their voice out there, right?

:

01:16:42,723 --> 01:16:45,613

And can be heard and can

engage in in the environment.

:

01:16:46,123 --> 01:16:51,403

Um, because the production aspect of

it has become so cheap and so easy.

:

01:16:51,403 --> 01:16:54,493

So yeah, I think it's

I think it's fantastic.

:

01:16:55,658 --> 01:16:57,658

Mike: Yeah, no, definitely

super interesting.

:

01:16:58,268 --> 01:17:02,378

Um, I was curious to know, you know,

if, say, if there's a younger, you

:

01:17:02,378 --> 01:17:06,077

know, person that's listening or

watching and interested in, in, you

:

01:17:06,077 --> 01:17:09,358

know, achieving a lot of the things

that you've managed to achieve and

:

01:17:09,368 --> 01:17:13,098

balancing the things that you've talked

about balancing in your day to day life.

:

01:17:13,407 --> 01:17:17,218

Is there any particular advice or

suggestions that you might give to someone

:

01:17:17,538 --> 01:17:22,298

who's perhaps in school or an early stage

career who is looking to cultivate a more

:

01:17:22,298 --> 01:17:25,348

of a generalist approach to their career?

:

01:17:25,538 --> 01:17:29,648

Work life balance, you know, day

to day living in general, but maybe

:

01:17:29,648 --> 01:17:31,458

feels more pressured to specialize.

:

01:17:31,468 --> 01:17:34,018

How would you encourage that

people seek that balance?

:

01:17:35,468 --> 01:17:38,948

Joel: Yeah, I think about this a lot

because I don't have kids of my own,

:

01:17:38,948 --> 01:17:42,878

but I live next door to my brother

and he has, he has a couple of kids.

:

01:17:42,878 --> 01:17:46,138

And so I've seen my

niece and nephew grow up.

:

01:17:46,838 --> 01:17:50,148

Um, my nephew now is,

you know, 10 years old.

:

01:17:50,818 --> 01:17:57,878

And what I realize, right, is that what

you need, um, to be a generalist, right?

:

01:17:58,608 --> 01:18:00,068

You have from the very beginning,

:

01:18:00,458 --> 01:18:00,928

Mike: right?

:

01:18:00,968 --> 01:18:05,478

Joel: Uh, People, you know, there's

always this, this, uh, trope in, in, uh,

:

01:18:05,968 --> 01:18:14,368

common, uh, you know, in media of the kid

asking why, why, why, why, or what's that?

:

01:18:14,368 --> 01:18:14,728

What's this?

:

01:18:14,758 --> 01:18:15,088

What's that?

:

01:18:15,268 --> 01:18:17,558

And then the parent just

going because, right?

:

01:18:18,657 --> 01:18:21,278

That's the thing is kids are

naturally curious, right?

:

01:18:21,278 --> 01:18:24,577

Kids are naturally engaged

in the world, right?

:

01:18:24,577 --> 01:18:29,098

And I think that some of our, like you

mentioned the meat grinder of, of, you

:

01:18:29,098 --> 01:18:34,288

know, um, Of school or of, you know,

business or these sorts of things?

:

01:18:34,778 --> 01:18:44,268

Yes, our culture is set up on that

out of them, but that is foundational.

:

01:18:44,268 --> 01:18:47,558

That's a foundational element of being

a human being is being interested,

:

01:18:47,568 --> 01:18:50,438

being curious, um, being excited, right?

:

01:18:51,118 --> 01:18:54,638

And so it, I, if there's

somebody young out there, I would

:

01:18:54,638 --> 01:18:56,118

say, hang on to that, right?

:

01:18:56,118 --> 01:19:00,688

Because I had that when I was young

and then I lost it right in my teenage

:

01:19:00,688 --> 01:19:02,458

years up through my early twenties.

:

01:19:02,458 --> 01:19:06,448

And then I had to find it again and

it's a lot of work to find it again.

:

01:19:06,818 --> 01:19:11,238

If you can just hang on to it, um, then

you'll, you'll live a successful life.

:

01:19:11,238 --> 01:19:11,438

Right.

:

01:19:11,438 --> 01:19:13,478

And, and again, it doesn't matter.

:

01:19:13,963 --> 01:19:18,343

You know, we're not defining success

here is as being the richest person on

:

01:19:18,343 --> 01:19:21,863

earth because you want to what if you're

the richest person on earth that that

:

01:19:21,973 --> 01:19:24,013

will, that's not going to make you happy.

:

01:19:24,063 --> 01:19:25,943

That's not what happiness is, right?

:

01:19:26,493 --> 01:19:29,823

And and so happiness isn't

even really the goal itself.

:

01:19:29,823 --> 01:19:31,443

It's more of a eudaimonia, right?

:

01:19:31,443 --> 01:19:35,273

This idea of of living

a fulfilled life, right?

:

01:19:35,293 --> 01:19:37,503

Something that that

feels enriching, right?

:

01:19:38,013 --> 01:19:40,233

And and that's That's all right there.

:

01:19:40,282 --> 01:19:41,163

It's all in front of you.

:

01:19:41,463 --> 01:19:46,423

And you know, if you just hold on to that,

that it's better to be a child, right?

:

01:19:46,883 --> 01:19:51,823

If you hang on to that, what you what you

were born with, what your birthright is as

:

01:19:51,823 --> 01:19:56,753

a human being, the ability to be curious

and to be interested and to be excited.

:

01:19:57,423 --> 01:19:59,343

Um, then then that's the key.

:

01:19:59,433 --> 01:19:59,823

That's all.

:

01:19:59,853 --> 01:20:01,093

That's all there is to it, right?

:

01:20:01,103 --> 01:20:02,708

Just just don't let it.

:

01:20:02,898 --> 01:20:06,058

Don't let the world beat you

down, you know, stay engaged.

:

01:20:07,238 --> 01:20:07,577

Mike: Nice.

:

01:20:07,618 --> 01:20:08,188

Yeah, I love it.

:

01:20:08,248 --> 01:20:09,907

I think that's, that's fantastic.

:

01:20:09,948 --> 01:20:14,618

I love that idea of curiosity and

encouraging people to, to just try

:

01:20:14,618 --> 01:20:17,628

and maintain a sense of childlike

curiosity in the way that they

:

01:20:17,628 --> 01:20:19,178

approach their day to day living.

:

01:20:19,198 --> 01:20:21,228

And, uh, yeah, I think

that'll serve them well.

:

01:20:21,228 --> 01:20:22,448

So thanks very much for that.

:

01:20:25,288 --> 01:20:27,588

Um, I think, you know, I think

that's a good place to end.

:

01:20:27,657 --> 01:20:30,718

Uh, maybe if you don't

mind, uh, let us know again.

:

01:20:30,748 --> 01:20:33,998

Uh, so the podcast name, your

book name, again, all of these.

:

01:20:34,418 --> 01:20:39,688

Various, uh, relevant, um, you know,

endeavors and, and, and content we'll put

:

01:20:39,688 --> 01:20:43,148

in the show notes, but yeah, maybe just

explain for viewers and listeners again.

:

01:20:44,577 --> 01:20:44,888

Sure.

:

01:20:45,428 --> 01:20:45,708

Joel: Yeah.

:

01:20:45,708 --> 01:20:48,528

So, uh, I'm the world's worst

marketer, so I don't have a

:

01:20:48,538 --> 01:20:50,108

great online presence, right?

:

01:20:50,108 --> 01:20:54,028

Most of the time I'm just doing stuff

and if people find it great, but if they

:

01:20:54,028 --> 01:20:57,428

don't, uh, I haven't put a whole lot

of effort into it, but you know, if you

:

01:20:57,428 --> 01:21:01,118

go onto Apple music, Spotify, wherever

you can Google my name, Joel Bouchard.

:

01:21:01,308 --> 01:21:01,907

I'll pop up.

:

01:21:01,928 --> 01:21:04,878

You'll see my albums and

EPs and singles on there.

:

01:21:05,348 --> 01:21:10,298

It's primarily, uh, alternative rock, but,

um, I like to experiment a little bit.

:

01:21:10,298 --> 01:21:13,928

So there's some progressive

things that are long form.

:

01:21:14,138 --> 01:21:17,418

Um, there's some shorter kind

of jazz fusion type things.

:

01:21:18,128 --> 01:21:20,338

Um, the podcast is from

nowhere to nothing.

:

01:21:20,968 --> 01:21:23,178

So anywhere you listen to

podcasts, you can look it up.

:

01:21:23,178 --> 01:21:28,438

You can find that, uh, about

philosophy and, uh, the book is the

:

01:21:28,438 --> 01:21:30,498

sleeper, the scholar and the Strix.

:

01:21:30,668 --> 01:21:31,968

And so that's on Amazon.

:

01:21:31,978 --> 01:21:32,708

You could find that there.

:

01:21:33,723 --> 01:21:34,253

Mike: Very good.

:

01:21:34,282 --> 01:21:35,123

That's so cool.

:

01:21:35,303 --> 01:21:35,833

All right.

:

01:21:36,433 --> 01:21:38,952

Thanks again for a great discussion.

:

01:21:39,003 --> 01:21:39,813

I learned a lot.

:

01:21:39,813 --> 01:21:42,723

I'm like I said before, I'm

going to check out your book

:

01:21:42,753 --> 01:21:44,393

and your podcast and your music.

:

01:21:44,423 --> 01:21:45,702

I'm really looking forward to it.

:

01:21:46,253 --> 01:21:50,683

And, uh, yeah, I just wanted to

thank you again for joining us today

:

01:21:50,683 --> 01:21:51,973

and just wish you all the best.

:

01:21:52,543 --> 01:21:52,793

Joel: Yeah.

:

01:21:52,793 --> 01:21:53,443

Thanks for having me on.

:

01:21:53,443 --> 01:21:54,023

It was a lot of fun.

:

01:21:54,903 --> 01:21:55,282

Okay.

:

01:21:55,313 --> 01:21:55,753

Cheers.

:

01:21:56,103 --> 01:21:56,463

Take care.

:

01:21:56,463 --> 01:21:56,593

Bye bye.

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About the Podcast

The Neurostimulation Podcast
Welcome to The Neurostimulation Podcast, your go-to source for the latest in clinical neurostimulation! Here, we dive deep into the revolutionary techniques that are shaping the future of health care.

Whether you're a healthcare professional, a student, or simply passionate about neuroscience, this podcast will keep you informed, inspired, and connected with the evolving world of neurostimulation.

Subscribe for episodes that stimulate your mind and enhance your understanding of brain health and treatment.

About your host

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Michael Passmore

Dr. Michael Passmore is a psychiatrist based in Vancouver, BC, with expertise in neurostimulation therapies. Having completed specialized training in multiple neurostimulation modalities, including electroconvulsive therapy at Duke University and transcranial magnetic stimulation at Harvard University, Dr. Passmore brings a robust clinical and academic background to his practice. Formerly the head of the neurostimulation program in the department of Psychiatry at Providence Health Care, Dr. Passmore now serves as a clinical associate professor at the University of British Columbia’s Department of Psychiatry. From his clinic, ZipStim Neurostimulation (zipstim.com), Dr. Passmore offers private, physician-supervised, home-based transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) treatments tailored to clients across Canada.​